What does "not suitable" mean? [for a mathematics journal]

[the_m-theorist]

Sigh. A couple of days ago my first paper got rejected. The editors claimed that " the experts we consulted felt that the paper is not suitable for the journal". A few days later I wrote them back requesting them to elaborate on where my paper had failed to meet their expectations and that any advice they gave would be very helpful to me. They replied that "the expert consulted did not have any comments on your paper other than that it was not suitable for the journal."

 

[Medicol]

It's an incomplete polite excuse to not be in charge of your, likely, excellent paper. Clearly there is no bidirectional communication.
Did you try sending it to somewhere else ?

 

[Simon Bridge]

Did you show the paper to someone else in your field - a colleague perhaps?
I'm with Medicol - but I'd add: recheck the publication guide and criteria for the journal.
A more experienced colleague will be able to advise you which other journals to try.

 

[the_m-theorist]

I'm not sure if either of you guessed that I'm quite young, but I just turned 16, so as far as colleagues in my field are concerned I have none at the moment. @Medicol that's encouraging and I'm going to try sending my paper to another journal soon, but what does "not suitable" mean, does it mean that the quality of the work done is not good enough for the journal or something?? cause the one I sent it to was one of the most reputed ones, I obviously thought that given that they support short papers and considering my age they'd accept, but they didn't.

 

[Simon Bridge]

Well, I suspected that you were inexperienced and working alone but I gave you the benefit of the doubt.
Which journals and what was the subject of the paper?
Do you have specific reason to expect that the publishers would favor papers by someone so young?

From what you have now revealed, I suspect that the paper was simply not up to scratch. Possibly your writing showed your age and experience.

Science is a collaborative process - papers, particularly to the better journals, typically undergo a departmental review to make sure they are up to scratch. I've known profs who put papers on their doors so others can scribble comments and corrections in the margins before submitting to a publisher. It is unlikely that you will be able to produce something publishable working by yourself.

 

[ZapperZ]

If you are that young, and if I am correct in assuming that you do not have a lot of experience in publishing papers in peer-reviewed journals, then the term "not suitable" is often a polite way of journals editors saying that your submission is either nonsensical (they get a lot of crackpottery being submitted to them each day), is of the wrong topic for that journal, or does not satisfy the criteria of "importance and impact" for that journal, etc.

Please note that for prestigious journals such as Science, Nature, and PRL, the work must not only be interesting, but it must also be important and have a wide-ranging impact, not just within that narrow area of research. To have a feel to know which journal a particular work is appropriate for takes YEARS of experience. You simply can't send something blindly to some journal and expect to be taken seriously. Also note that each journals may have a very strict format and style. PRL, for example, has a strict 4-page limit, etc. You are also evaluated on your presentation (i.e. is it clear enough, it is presented in an understandable manner, etc.) beyond just the actual content. Any of these could disqualify you from being considered.

So how much knowledge about the journal you submitted to and its requirement do you have?

Zz.

 

[the_m-theorist]

Many thanks to everyone whose replied so far and tried to help me!

Which journals and what was the subject of the paper?

The subject of the paper was a Diophantine equation in number theory that hadn't been solved before. (i.e. I claim to have solved it.)
If I reveal the name of the journal would that dis-repute them?

Do you have specific reason to expect that the publishers would favor papers by someone so young?

Unfortunately, no. It was kind of a leap of faith, and I was thinking that they would encourage budding mathematicians but perhaps that's no reason for them to accept papers that they feel are not good enough for their journal. But the equation in consideration has been open for more than a 130 years.

From what you have now revealed, I suspect that the paper was simply not up to scratch. Possibly your writing showed your age and experience.

Science is a collaborative process - papers, particularly to the better journals, typically undergo a departmental review to make sure they are up to scratch. I've known profs who put papers on their doors so others can scribble comments and corrections in the margins before submitting to a publisher. It is unlikely that you will be able to produce something publishable working by yourself.

What do you suggest I now do? My high school teachers are no good and I have no contacts at the local university. Perhaps you or someone else here would like to take the honor?

If you are that young, and if I am correct in assuming that you do not have a lot of experience in publishing papers in peer-reviewed journals, then the term "not suitable" is often a polite way of journals editors saying that your submission is either nonsensical (they get a lot of crackpottery being submitted to them each day), is of the wrong topic for that journal, or does not satisfy the criteria of "importance and impact" for that journal, etc.

Thanks for this!

PRL, for example, has a strict 4-page limit, etc

Yes, I checked that beforehand. In order to be qualified as a short paper, it needs to be below 20 pages.

So how much knowledge about the journal you submitted to and its requirement do you have?

The only resource in this matter that I had and still do is the journal's website and the wiki page for the journal. So I know that they the subject of my paper is relevant to the journal and that the journal is one of the most prestigious ones in the world, so they only accept the best stuff.

 

[analogdesign]

What do you suggest I now do? My high school teachers are no good and I have no contacts at the local university. Perhaps you or someone else here would like to take the honor?

Surely you have some people you discuss your research with? If you're a lone wolf it is quite possible you have huge holes in your knowledge of which you are unaware.

When I submit a paper it has typically be read and ripped to utter shreads by three or four Ph.Ds. The paper ends up being far, far, better for it. There really is nothing better than peer review for clarifying your thinking and expression.

 

[Simon Bridge]

If I reveal the name of the journal would that dis-repute them?

No. But it would provide us the appropriate context for your experience. Everybody gets turned down. Nobody is suggesting the editors did anything wrong by turning you down.

I was thinking that they would encourage budding mathematicians but perhaps that's no reason for them to accept papers that they feel are not good enough for their journal.

That is correct - journals do not exist to encourage newcomers.
Most journals publish some sort of mission statement.

But the equation in consideration has been open for more than a 130 years.

... coo: which one were you working on?

Remember - if the solution has eluded mathematicians much more experienced than you for over a century, then it is a hard problem.
What have you done that nobody else has tried?

What do you suggest I now do? My high school teachers are no good and I have no contacts at the local university.

... you need to find someone to work with. Make contacts with the local university for instance.

Perhaps you or someone else here would like to take the honor?

How many pages is this paper?

You could try posting the general approach as a question in a math forum here... write out the equation and conjecture you intend to tackle, then a brief overview of your approach. "Leads to the following solution..." show the solution.
Your question would be something like "what have I missed?"

But make sure you are familiar with the rules first.

 

[the_m-theorist]

Surely you have some people you discuss your research with? If you're a lone wolf it is quite possible you have huge holes in your knowledge of which you are unaware.

At the moment, no, I am a lone wolf, but I am trying to change that. What you say is quite possible, and that is precisely why I am seeking help here. However I still insist that my paper is relevant because it doesn't really require too many prerequisites and I've gone through it over and over again many times (once after a long break too.)

... coo: which one were you working on?

Remember - if the solution has eluded mathematicians much more experienced than you for over a century, then it is a hard problem.
What have you done that nobody else has tried?

Brocard's problem. I think what was radically different in my approach was that I split the problem into several cases and dealt with those cases separately. At the end in fact I was able to show that Erdos's conjecture regarding the problem that only 3 brown numbers exist is in fact true. The journal I submitted to was the Annals Of Mathematics. Perhaps I feel a little ashamed too, to admit my naivety.

... you need to find someone to work with. Make contacts with the local university for instance.

I will definitely try to do this.

How many pages is this paper?

5 pages long. So would you like to review it

 

[Simon Bridge]

I think what was radically different in my approach was that I split the problem into several cases and dealt with those cases separately.

Everybody does that though.

5 pages long. So would you like to review it

I'm pretty useless at this sort of thing. Have you seen:
http://researchcommons.waikato.ac.nz/handle/10289/7565

 

[Vanadium 50]

Have you been reading this journal regularly? If not, how do you know that this paper is suitable - that it's the sort of thing this journal prints? Besides that, the scientific literature is a dialog: wanting to publish without reading is like wanting to talk without listening. And it's about as popular.

Did you tell the journal you were 16? If not, it's not really fair to complain they are not supportive. If so, why did you do that? If your proof is valid, does your age matter? If your proof is invalid, do you think the journal should publish it anyway because you're young?

 

[the_m-theorist]

Have you been reading this journal regularly? If not, how do you know that this paper is suitable - that it's the sort of thing this journal prints?

I do not have access to the journal therefore I am not a regular reader, but the Annals are famous for publishing stuff related to number theory. I can give no better example than that of Andrew Wiles paper on Fermat's Last Theorem (which is a diophantine equation.)

Did you tell the journal you were 16?

Yes. (From the beginning.)

If your proof is valid, does your age matter?

I thought it did but Simon cleared me up on this.

If your proof is invalid, do you think the journal should publish it anyway because you're young?

I would never support such ideology. Please do not misunderstand my inexperience for lack of character and wrong motivation. The proof is valid, I can send it to you if you like.

 

[the_m-theorist]

Everybody does that though.

Laughs. I knew you would reply something like that. 8 separate cases, I don't think I've seen that before, besides it's the classification scheme that really matters.

Have you seen:
http://researchcommons.waikato.ac.nz/handle/10289/7565

Yep, long time ago.

 

[Simon Bridge]

Journal is Annals of Mathematics then - don't know why you wouldn't want to say.
Honestly - everyone breaks a problem into different cases and hopes they have not left some important case out. Naturally the devil is in the details: you are saying you've used a set of cases, or used them in a certain way, that nobody else has thought of before in over a century? Then that's begging the original question: what is it that you have done that nobody else has tried before?

The only way to be sure of that is to use a method (a) you have invented, or (b) that has been discovered very recently.
Example - the proof of Fermat's last theorem you cited used techniques that were very new at the time and unavailable to Fermat.
You done something like that?

Considering the response you got off the journal - is it possible that the peer-reviewer saw something that you missed?
Anyway - I think you have the answer to your question: rightly or wrongly your paper failed peer review: it happens.
To move on - get support. Someone knowledgeable who can sit down and read your paper and make suggestions.
I know - it's hard.

 

[Vanadium 50]

This paper almost certainly did not go out for peer review. If it had, there would be a report. The expert is almost certainly the associate editor whose job it is to find referees, and this message means that he or she feels it's not worth wasting the referee's time.

ZapperZ's comments are spot on. The editor was able to tell immediately that this was not suitable. Maybe there is an obvious error. Maybe the argument is impenetrable. Maybe it's obvious that the author is unfamiliar with the literature or he journal's style and procedures.

 

[the_m-theorist]

The only way I can convince you people that the paper does not have elementary mistakes is that you go through it. I would happily upload it here only I'm concerned that there is a possibility that someone might steal it?

 

[the_m-theorist]

This paper almost certainly did not go out for peer review. If it had, there would be a report. The expert is almost certainly the associate editor whose job it is to find referees, and this message means that he or she feels it's not worth wasting the referee's time.

I suspected something similar given that I got the rejectance letter 10 days later. (which is I believe short even for a short paper.)

 

[the_m-theorist]

To move on - get support. Someone knowledgeable who can sit down and read your paper and make suggestions.
I know - it's hard.

Do you think mathwonk might be interested in this. (after all he seems to be the only regularly posting mathematician left on PF, hurkyl's been inactive for over a year now and matt grime even more than that.) Meanwhile there's an update guys. I just found out that my father has a friend who seems to know a professor at the university reasonably well and he's promised my dad to take me to him soon. Well we'll see how things go. Anyway I'll keep this thread updated through the developments.

 

[Rocket50]

I'm pretty sure that you are allowed to post a proof here for it to be critiqued.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm pretty sure that you are allowed to post a proof here for it to be critiqued.

And I am pretty sure you're not.

If you have a new theory or idea, this is not the place to look for feedback on it or help in developing it..

 

[Vanadium 50]

The only way I can convince you people that the paper does not have elementary mistakes is that you go through it.

That's not what you said your intent was. You asked what "not suitable" meant. I think that has been asked and answered. If you want to delve into the issue of whether this proof of yours is valid or not, I urge you to reread the PF Rules. Especially the part I quoted.

I would happily upload it here only I'm concerned that there is a possibility that someone might steal it?

Do you think important mathematicians spend their time searching the internet for alleged proofs from teenagers that they can steal?

 

[the_m-theorist]

Do you think important mathematicians spend their time searching the internet for alleged proofs from teenagers that they can steal?

It doesn't really have to be an important mathematician or a mathematician at all. Once the proof is given he/she could easily try to publish it under their name in some other journal.

 

[the_m-theorist]

Thank you for all your help so far!

And I am pretty sure you're not.

In which case I'll be looking forward to that meeting.
P.S. what do you mean "argument is impenetrable"? Any help is always appreciated!

 

[Vanadium 50]

what do you mean "argument is impenetrable"

That would be an argument that is presented in a way to make it impossible to understand.

 

[russ_watters]

What do you suggest I now do? My high school teachers are no good and I have no contacts at the local university. Perhaps you or someone else here would like to take the honor?

You're not going to like this: Your best bet at this point would be to set the paper aside and forget about it for five years while earning a degree in math. If it has been an open problem for 130 years, it'll keep until you have the necessary knowledge/experience to tackle it properly.

Alternately, if you do find someone suitable to comment on it who is willing to, accept their critique. But I recommend the first path to the second because it will be less bruising to your ego.

 

[the_m-theorist]

it'll keep until you have the necessary knowledge/experience to tackle it properly.

Please, I seek your advice on the matter, not your opinion of my knowledge and expertise or my paper which is obviously wrong given that you do not know me. But assuming beforehand that I am one of those stupid kids who thinks he is on the forefront of math after reading some fancy novel is wrong. How can you say I do not have the necessary knowledge or expertise to tackle it?. You are directly implying that my proof is wrong. (a discussion of which PF does not support I believe.)

Alternately, if you do find someone suitable to comment on it who is willing to, accept their critique. But I recommend the first path to the second because it will be less bruising to your ego.

I have said this before, I will say this again, do not misunderstand my inexperience to be lack of character, such behavior on my part would not be in the spirit of mathematics. If someone points out to me a mathematical error in my proof, than there no question of ego what is wrong is wrong and everyone makes mistakes. But if this happens I would not be sad or have my ego bruised. On the contrary I would be even more excited learning that the problem is still open and would probably make more efforts in trying to solve it. But someone saying that it is outright wrong just because I am young is I think ridiculous. (But I suppose it is only natural for you to not take me seriously.)

 

[vela]

But someone saying that it is outright wrong just because I am young is I think ridiculous. (But I suppose it is only natural for you to not take me seriously.)

It's actually not ridiculous, and it's not so much that you are young but that you're inexperienced. The truth is there are tons of people like you who think they discovered a solution to a long-standing problem, and virtually all of them are wrong. Professors routinely refuse to hear these people out because to do so would be an incredible waste of time. The alleged breakthroughs are commonly based on fundamental misconceptions, faulty logic, and a lack of critical thinking. The people make these mistakes simply because they don't have the proper background and knowledge.

Now is it possible that you're the exception who has managed to make a bona fide breakthrough? Sure, but it's extremely unlikely. On the other hand, it's a virtual certainty that you've made mistakes based on your lack of experience. (The way your paper was rejected as "not suitable" suggests this is indeed the case.) As others have noted, very smart people have thought long and hard about the same problem. Do you really think that you've managed to discover something new that they all overlooked?

Russ isn't trying to insult you; he's giving you good advice based on the odds. Acquire the proper background and knowledge so you can fashion a proper argument and competently critique it on your own.

 

[Simon Bridge]

Professors routinely refuse to hear these people out because to do so would be an incredible waste of time.

I've had a prof who would hand such things off to grad students with a scribbled note asking, "do I need to read this?" The student was to get back to him with a yes or no. In the 5 years I knew him, Occasionally he would hand off actual meritorious papers to see if people were paying attention, and sometimes ask for a summary of "why not" - all part of training the grad students.

In 5 years I only know of one paper from the public that got through that way - which lead to an attempt to get the author into a PhD program.
IIRC that author was a retired engineer who had taken to science after a lifetime in the field.

OTOH: Feynman was famous for responding to the various unsolicited letters he got. i.e.

In another instance, a [submission] claimed to have discovered a new source of energy, exhibited by the apparently unmotivated spinning of a washer when suspended by a thread. Feynman experimented with washers and threads before replying, observed the effect in question, admitted to surprise at its strength, did the calculations—which nevertheless suggested an utterly conventional if counterintuitive explanation (lengthening threads and unnoticed hand motions)—and wrote back suggesting further experiments. [1]​

Please, I seek your advice on the matter, not your opinion of my knowledge and expertise..

I want you to realize that what Russ wrote is very mild compared to how academics treat each other. Not only was he not insulting you, he was being nice to you.

Russ only followed from the information you supplied - which was sufficient, with his own experience with journals and research, to draw the conclusions he did.

You clearly lack knowledge associated with getting a paper published and what the response you got means, or whence the question? You have, yourself, conceded your inexperience in earlier posts. So Russ was correct to say you need knowledge and experience - those are not his opinions, they are reasonable summaries of what you have said.

He drew on his experience with publications to advise you on how best to go about getting that knowledge, and what sort of knowledge to concentrate on. This does not need Russ to know any more about you or your character than what you have already supplied. I don't think anyone here is going to give you any different advise. Unless you want to be more forthcoming, I think you have got all you are going to get.

[1] Feynman M. (Ed), 2005. Perfectly Reasonable Deviations from the Beaten Track: The Letters of Richard P. Feynman.
Retreived from: http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/sincerely-richard-p-feynman

 

[Vanadium 50]

But Russ did give you advice. And he didn't mention your age.

 

[Rocket50]

I think being 16 may have something to do with your rejection, but its not like they just skipped your paper because of your age. They probably should have clarified why they rejected it. Maybe you should discuss this your any acquaintances you have working at a university. They might be able to give you more specific advice.

 

[the_m-theorist]

If there has been any misunderstanding on my part, then I am very, very, VERY sorry Russ.

 

[the_m-theorist]

Now is it possible that you're the exception who has managed to make a bona fide breakthrough?

I wouldn't call it that even if I manage to publish it. It's just a problem, I tried to solve it and one of my attempts was clever enough to get through it.
Just because it's been open for more than a hundred years does not mean many people have heard about it (right?), I'll bet no one who read this thread knew about brocard's problem before I mentioned it.

 

[ZapperZ]

I wouldn't call it that even if I manage to publish it. It's just a problem, I tried to solve it and one of my attempts was clever enough to get through it.
Just because it's been open for more than a hundred years does not mean many people have heard about it (right?), I'll bet no one who read this thread knew about brocard's problem before I mentioned it.

Sorry, but your claim that you got "through" with it is still unverifiable. After all, the journal rejected it as being "unsuitable".

Unless you are able to find someone who is an expert in that area to seriously evaluate your work, you are up the creek. That's the sad fact. You asked for advice, and you got it in spades. So it is now time to stop complaining about it and do something, or give it up.

Zz.

 

[the_m-theorist]

I want you to realize that what Russ wrote is very mild compared to how academics treat each other. Not only was he not insulting you, he was being nice to you.

WOW! Academics is turning out to be much more rougher than I had originally anticipated!
UPDATE:- So I met the professor, this was a man whom I have already met twice before. The first time I had met him among other things we talked about, I explained to him the cauchy riemann equations, this was when I was in the 9th grade, all through the entire talk he gave me loads of references that he recommended I read and at the end he told my dad that he was proud to meet me. When I met him this time he told me that he could review the paper for me but he also recommended that I try to make contact with this other professor who according to him would definitely encourage me and is one of the foremost experts on the topic in the country. So folks, phase 1 in progress and I'm trying to make contact with the other man too.

 

[Vanadium 50]

People are trying to be polite, but the message isn't getting through. Let me be more direct.

"Not suitable for publication" means bad. Really, really bad. It means that it is so bad that the associate editor didn't need to send it out for review to find out exactly how bad it was. You sent this out to the community for their judgment, and that's what came back. You don't have to worry about someone stealing this. You shouldn't be worried about what you are going to teach this professor now that you have 'taught' him the Cauchy-Riemann equations.

Russ and ZapperZ have given you good advice. You will go farther taking this advice than not.

 

[cgk]

Are you all sure that you are not overdoing it? I knew plenty of people in my teens who solved previously unsolved problems routinely. And he is not exactly claiming to have proven the Riemann hypothesis.

For all we know, he might have a very elegant and novel proof for a particular problem, and simply failed to write it up properly. While I agree that "not suitable" means "really, really bad", I think it is mandatory to note that the "really, really bad" applies to its qualities as an academic research article. And there are many reasons why a writeup could be a horrible academic article while still describing an interesting solution to a particular problem. I have seen plenty of bad articles written by high ranking academics, and these people had decades of experience in producing them. A 16 year old who does not know how a research article is supposed to look is almost guaranteed to produce something which is "not suitable", no matter what the content of the article actually is.

@OP: De facto the only chance you have of publishing your result at this point in time, if it should indeed be correct and useful, is to team up with a professor and have it published together (probably after he/she completely replaces your text by new text, if it should happen). Your chances of getting the style, references, formats, submission, etc. right by yourself are virtually non-existent, even if the math is good. Of course you can also just publish your proof on the web, if your goal is only to get your name on it.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Are you all sure that you are not overdoing it? I knew plenty of people in my teens who solved previously unsolved problems routinely. And he is not exactly claiming to have proven the Riemann hypothesis.

I don't think so. This problem is listed in the Wikipedia entry "List of unsolved problems in mathematics", which means its one of the ~200 most interesting/challenging/difficult (pick your favorite word here) problems. This problem has remained unsolved for over a century, and despite making some headway was unsolved by Ramanujan and Eordos. Do you know plenty of people in their teens who have solved such problems? That seems somewhat improbable.

For the OP to progress, he needs to have an accurate picture of where he is. Possibility A: he's another Ramanujan, someone who has made a great deal of progress without formal education. Indeed, he's better than Ramanujan, because he's done in 16 years what Ramanujan failed to do in 32. This is a person who can "explain" mathematics to professors who have studied this material for years or even decades. Possibility B: we have someone who is excited, but hasn't gone through the decade-long process to become a mathematician, and as such has made an error that he doesn't see.

What are the odds of Possibility A? Well, there have been perhaps 100 billion people who ever lived, and the number of people who are better mathematicians than Ramanujan might be around ten. On the other hand, the number of people who have made a mistake in mathematics is close to that 100 billion, so a sensible Baysean prior might be 10^-10 or so. Now, we have one piece of evidence: the response of the journal. How often do journal editors make mistakes of this magnitude? Surely not 10% of the time - they'd be fired. Probably 0.1%, but let's be generous and say 1%. That gets is to P of about 10^-12.

So, with P = 0.0000000001% , the OP is justified in pushing ahead.
On the other hand, with P = 99.99999999999% he has made a mistake and should devote his energies to learning more mathematics. In short, to listen more and to read more. I mentioned earlier than scientific journals are a dialog and publishing in a journal you don't read is tantamount to talking without wanting to listen. That's a strategy that is valid - impolite, but valid - 0.0000000001% of the time. The other 99.99999999999% it's still impolite, but no longer valid.

 

[IGU]

Sigh. A couple of days ago my first paper got rejected...

Forget journals. Publish it on arXiv and then you have it timestamped and owned by you. Then you can forget your worries about people stealing your work and easily point others to it to review. If anybody takes an interest, you'll quickly discover why it sucks or that it doesn't. You might be good, you might not, but complaining about others not willing to give you a chance is just a waste of time. Remember that Ramanujan got a chance only because he was persistent and got lucky in that Hardy followed up. Note that if he had sent Hardy nothing for fear that he would steal it, Ramanujan would have gotten nowhere.

If you don't feel comfortable posting the link to the arXiv posting here, send it to people directly.

 

[Orodruin]

Forget journals. Publish it on arXiv and then you have it timestamped and owned by you.

Since a few years back (apparently 10 ... time flies), arXiv has adopted an endorsement system. In order to submit in a category, you will need to be endorsed for doing so by someone who is a regular submitter. See http://arxiv.org/help/endorsement. Typically, an endorser will want to at least see a draft of what you are planning to submit. An option is being automatically endorsed by affiliation to a known academic institution, but I am guessing this will not be applicable in this case.