What guarantee Kirchoff's law of potential difference?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the guarantees of Kirchhoff's law of potential difference, particularly in the context of circuits involving inductors and capacitors. Participants explore theoretical implications and practical examples related to the law's application in various scenarios, including the behavior of circuits with zero resistance and the role of self-inductance.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that Kirchhoff's law states the potential difference along a closed circuit must be zero and questions why the voltage supplied must equal the voltage generated in an inductor.
  • Another participant explains that Kirchhoff's voltage law (KVL) is based on the conservative nature of the electric field, which is valid only when there is no changing magnetic field, referencing Faraday's law.
  • Concerns are raised about the validity of KVL in circuits with inductors, suggesting that while KVL can be applied, it requires the understanding that the potential drop across the inductor is not strictly true but yields correct results.
  • A participant questions the practicality of connecting capacitor plates with a zero-resistance wire, implying that such a scenario is unrealistic.
  • Another participant discusses the implications of a zero-ohm wire, noting that it has a finite geometrical extension and self-inductance, which leads to oscillations in a perfect LC circuit.
  • It is mentioned that even with zero resistance, the wire does not have zero impedance due to its self-inductance, affecting the potential difference observed in the circuit.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application and implications of Kirchhoff's law, particularly in scenarios involving inductors and capacitors. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives on the guarantees of the law.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include assumptions about ideal conditions in circuits, the definition of zero resistance, and the implications of self-inductance in practical scenarios. The discussion does not resolve these complexities.

Twukwuw
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Kirchoff's law states that, the potential difference along a closed circuit must be ZERO.

Now, let's do a simple question 1.
We have a simple circuit consists of INDUCTOR and Voltage source-->V=V.sin(wt)

At any instant, why must the voltage supplied equal the voltage generated in the inductor? (this is written in many textbooks)
Can the voltage supplied exceed the voltage of inductor and hence we have a NON_ZERO potential difference along a closed loop?

Now, simple question 2.
Suppose we have a capacitor which has been charged.
Next, we connect the 2 plates of the capacitor by a ZERO RESISTANCE wire. The capacitor will take a very short time to neutralise itself.
In this very short time, we can see that, the potential difference is not zero along a close loop, because the resistance is zero.

So, after these 2 examples,
I would like to ask, what GUARNTEE kirchhoffs law of potential difference?

Thanks,
Twukwuw.
 
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Twukwuw said:
Kirchoff's law states that, the potential difference along a closed circuit must be ZERO.

Now, let's do a simple question 1.
We have a simple circuit consists of INDUCTOR and Voltage source-->V=V.sin(wt)

At any instant, why must the voltage supplied equal the voltage generated in the inductor? (this is written in many textbooks)
Can the voltage supplied exceed the voltage of inductor and hence we have a NON_ZERO potential difference along a closed loop?
The Kirchoff voltage law (KVL) simply says the electric field is conservative. It comes from Faraday's law. If there is no changing magnetic field, then:
<br /> \vec \nabla \times \vec E=\vec 0
This zero curl allows you to define a potential V(\vec r)=\int_o&#039;^{\vec r} \vec E \cdot d\vec l which is path independent (so for a closed loop it's zero -> KVL)

Incidentally, KVL is NOT true if there is a changing magnetic field:
\vec \nabla \times \vec E=-\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\vec B
Then the E-field is not conservative. This is also true in circuits with inductors. However, you can still use KVL whilst using the rule that LdI/dt is the potential drop across the inductor (this is not true, it just gives the right answer).

Gotta go, will post more later
 
Twukwuw said:
Next, we connect the 2 plates of the capacitor by a ZERO RESISTANCE wire.

Where would you find such a wire? :confused:
 
Twukwuw said:
Now, simple question 2.
Suppose we have a capacitor which has been charged.
Next, we connect the 2 plates of the capacitor by a ZERO RESISTANCE wire. The capacitor will take a very short time to neutralise itself.
In this very short time, we can see that, the potential difference is not zero along a close loop, because the resistance is zero.

Ha, this was an item I got on my exam by my old professor in electronics :smile: The point is that even a zero-ohm wire has a finite geometrical extension, and hence MAKES UP A SELF. It has a certain self-inductance.

So what you have now, is a perfect LC circuit, which will oscillate for ever. The current in the zero-ohm wire will be maximal, when the potential over it has dropped to 0, and then the self-induction will now charge the capacitor in the opposite direction. When the current is 0, there is indeed a voltage over the conductor, but even though it has 0 resistance, it doesn't have zero IMPEDANCE (because it is a self).
 

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