What happens to Newton's 2nd law if there is a changing mass?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of changing mass on Newton's second law of motion. Participants explore theoretical scenarios where mass varies while velocity may remain constant or also change, examining the resulting effects on force and momentum.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that force is equal to the time derivative of momentum, questioning the implications of a changing mass while velocity remains constant.
  • Another participant explains that the differentiation of momentum with respect to time leads to a more complex problem, specifically referencing a simple harmonic oscillator and providing a derived equation.
  • Some participants express confusion about the concept of changing mass, with one questioning how Newton's laws apply in scenarios involving mass annihilation.
  • Another participant suggests that in certain systems, mass can be ignored (e.g., ejected fuel in a rocket), indicating that this does not imply annihilation but rather a simplification for analysis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the interpretation of changing mass in the context of Newton's laws. Some express skepticism about the applicability of these laws when mass changes, while others propose that it can be addressed through mathematical formulations.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the nature of mass change and its implications, with some participants suggesting that specific functional relationships between mass and time are necessary for further analysis. There is also a lack of consensus on how to reconcile Newton's laws with scenarios involving mass annihilation or simplifications in mass consideration.

mitcho
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I understand that force is equal to the time derivative of momentum, or d(mv)/dt. Then what happens if the velocity is constant and only the mass is changing. Does this mean there will be a force. If so, in what direction since I am assuming it is still a vector. Also, what if the mass and velocity are changing, does this make some kind of "2nd order" force?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
 
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So what you have now is [tex]\frac{d}{dt}(m(t)v(t))[/tex]. This is simply a product rule, nothing beyond that. You'll simply have a more complicated problem.

For example, if you had a simple harmonic oscillator, your 2nd law would become:

[tex]\frac{d}{{dt}}(m(t)\dot x(t)) = - kx(t)[/tex]

which upon doing the differentiation simply gives

[tex]\dot m(t)\dot x(t) + m(t)\ddot x(t) = - kx(t)[/tex]

Of course, you'll need information on the functional relationship of m with respect to t to solve this. I haven't given this much thought but that does not look like an easy problem
 
I don't understand how you can have a change in mass. Newton didn't anticipate mass annihilation, so I'm not sure what becomes of the law.
 
Curl said:
I don't understand how you can have a change in mass. Newton didn't anticipate mass annihilation, so I'm not sure what becomes of the law.
You can have a system in which you just ignore a part of the mass.For example you ignore the fuel that was ejected in a rocket if you are interested only in the motion the rocket. F=dp/dt so both mass and velocity can vary.This does not mean that mass is annihilated only that you can sometimes ignore some of it.
 

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