I What if Einstein equivalence principle is proven wrong one day?

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If the Einstein equivalence principle were proven wrong, it would primarily limit the domain of validity of general relativity, which has been tested with high precision. Such a discovery would not invalidate general relativity within its currently confirmed range but would prompt the development of a new theory of gravity. The principle has been tested to accuracy levels of up to 10^-7, indicating that any violation would need to be very small. A significant violation would imply a failure of general relativity in some scenarios, necessitating a new theoretical framework. Overall, while the implications of disproving the principle would be profound, general relativity would remain valid in its established applications.
  • #31
PAllen said:
Local means limited in spatial extent such that tidal gravity is undetectable...
Yah. This.
 
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  • #32
DaveC426913 said:
Correct.
More than that, you can't even take measurements at different places inside the box.
Thanks, now i understand. Einstein put a lot of limits lol.
What if someone indeed find an idea that is local, and that idea turns out to be right? What would be the impacts?
 
  • #33
only1god said:
What if someone indeed find an idea that is local, and that idea turns out to be right? What would be the impacts?
A lot of scientists would show up at your door.
Some with notepads.
Many with pitchforks.
 
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  • #34
DaveC426913 said:
Correct.
More than that, you can't even take measurements at different places inside the box.

(To clarify: It's not that you can't take measurements at different places; it's that the EP is not meant to apply in that condition.)
I don’t think this is required, as long as the measurements are close in both location and time
 
  • #35
only1god said:
Thanks, now i understand. Einstein put a lot of limits lol.
What if someone indeed find an idea that is local, and that idea turns out to be right? What would be the impacts?
See post #27
 
  • #36
PAllen said:
I don’t think this is required, as long as the measurements are close in both location and time
If you were allow that then any sufficiently fine measurement would detect tides.
 
  • #37
DaveC426913 said:
If you were allow that then any arbitrarily fine measurement would detect tides.
No, the idea is pick some achievable precision for you measurements. Then there exist corresponding bounds on spacetime extent in which any number of such measurements will fail to distinguish whether the box is near a large body or in intergalactic space (for example). Of course, the nature of the body also influences the extent of the bounds.
 
  • #38
i would be prepared, but Why pitchforks?
 
  • #39
PAllen said:
No, the idea is pick some achievable precision for you measurements. Then there exist corresponding bounds on spacetime extent in which any number of such measurements will fail to distinguish whether the box is near a large body or in intergalactic space (for example).
All right.Local effectively means: only measurements of distances in time or space small enough that tides can't be detected.
 
  • #40
DaveC426913 said:
All right.Local effectively means: only measurements of distances in time or space small enough that tides can't be detected.
Yes.
 
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  • #41
only1god said:
i would be prepared, but Why pitchforks?
Because it would make a lot of scientists very angry.

Some might be angry because they see their life work going up in a puff of smoke, but many would be angry because they think you a charlatan or fraud. Only time (and your notes) would tell which turns out to be true. :wink:
 
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  • #42
DaveC426913 said:
Because it would make a lot of scientists very angry.

Some might be angry because they see their life work going up in a puff of smoke, but many would be angry because they think you a charlatan or fraud. Only time (and your notes) would tell which turns out to be true.
I think the first one is more obvious than the second one, you are right in the first one because many will feel envy. Altought they wouldn't come to my door it will be funny hitting them if they come lol.

Anyway, Would i win a nobel prize for it? lol
 
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  • #43
only1god said:
I think the first one is more obvious than the second one, you are right in the first one because many will feel envy. Altought they wouldn't come to my door it will be funny hitting them if they come lol.

Anyway, Would i win a nobel prize for it? lol
Possibly, but I think you are much more likely to win two large lottery jackpots in a row than succeed in this.
 
  • #44
only1god said:
Anyway, Would i win a nobel prize for it? lol
Perhaps if it were backed up with the mathematics that proves it.
How's your differential equations?
 
  • #45
Pallen and Dave, What if i show you myself in this thread that i found an idea of a local experiment that indeed shows us a way to distinguish an accelerated frame from a gravitational field? ( That's the reason I'm asking all this, and i still have to work on my idea deeply)
 
  • #46
only1god said:
Pallen and Dave, What if i show you myself in this thread that i found an idea of a local experiment that indeed shows us a way to distinguish an accelerated frame from a gravitational field? ( That's the reason I'm asking all this, and i still have to work on my idea deeply)
If you present it as “here is an idea that is probably wrong, but I can’t see how”, we would be happy to discuss it. Otherwise, not so much. A number of such ideas have been presented and readily exposed. In one case, it was presented as a challenge, and I quickly the exposed the fallacy in a humorous way.
 
  • #47
PAllen said:
If you present it as “here is an idea that is probably wrong, but I can’t see how”, we would be happy to discuss it. Otherwise, not so much. A number of such ideas have been presented and readily exposed. In one case, it was presented as a challenge, and I quickly the exposed the fallacy in a humorous way.
I understand. In fact i was one of those who presented ideas but at the end were wrong. However in my current idea i don't see any errors. I've never in my head understood why two things that are different could be equal. Yes, gravity is an acceleration but that doesn't mean it's just an ilusion as GR affirms, it should be something that exists as a force. That's why for me Einstein's EP should be wrong.
 
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  • #48
only1god said:
Maybe some experiment or idea are still without being tested?
New experiments do not magically make old experiments go away. Since new experiments cannot make old experiments go away then that means the old experiments confirming it to ##10^{-15}## are still valid. So a new experiment sensitive down to the ##10^{-17}## level might detect a difference.

If so, what I described above would happen since similar thins have already happened in the past.

only1god said:
The question here is, leaving apart that limit, Will that mean if the idea is true that Einstein's EP is wrong?
Yes this would result in a limitation to the domain of validity for GR.
 
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  • #49
Dale said:
New experiments do not magically make old experiments go away. Since new experiments cannot make old experiments go away then that means the old experiments confirming it to ##10^{-15}## are still valid. So a new experiment sensitive down to the ##10^{-17}## level might detect a difference.

If so, what I described above would happen since similar thins have already happened in the past.

Yes this would result in a limitation to the domain of validity for GR.
Just to play a little devil’s advocate, if there were some new form of matter that coupled to gravity differently the others (e.g. it’s inertial mass measured by EM forces, on giving it a charge, was different from its passive gravitational mass), then an experiment on this new form of matter could have large discrepancies for the POE, without invalidating other experiments. Everyone, including me, would think this ridiculously unlikely, but the consequence would be large. The whole differential geometry framework of GR would come to be viewed as a historical accident, not worth propagating, once a successful new theory were developed (that also could also replicate the plethora of confirmed GR predictions).
 
  • #50
only1god said:
What if i show you myself in this thread that i found an idea of a local experiment that indeed shows us a way to distinguish an accelerated frame from a gravitational field? ( That's the reason I'm asking all this, and i still have to work on my idea deeply)
Personal theories and personal speculations are off topic in this forum. You are not the first person, or even the thousandth, to come here posting about an idea you have that you think violates some fundamental principle of physics. In the past, PF has tried to provide subforums where such ideas could be proposed. We found that the signal to noise ratio was zero: no idea ever turned out to be right, and the discussions about the many wrong ones accomplished nothing except to take up a lot of time for members who could have been doing more productive things. So we stopped doing it.
 
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  • #51
The OP question has been answered. Thread closed.
 

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