What is Diebold's history of breaches and corruption in the voting industry?

[pattylou]

It frightens me how Diebold has been proven corrupt time and again, but that the electorate doesn't care.

Now, Diebold is breaching contract with Leon County because Leon County showed that Diebold lied, and that the systems didn't meet federal guidelines (the feds should have caught those failures, but didn't) and so Leon County demanded upgrades - which Diebold refuses to provide.

There is vote fraud news regularly. I don't know why everyone seems complacent about this. The hacks into Diebold have been proven time and again - they are recognized by officials at the highest levels of government, and yet the general populace has no knowledge of this, or perhaps no concern. Prove me wrong. Visit the links at the bottom.

PERMISSION TO REPRINT GRANTED, MUST INCLUDE LINK TO http://www.blackboxvoting.org

You could steal the election and no one would ever know," Leon County (FL) supervisor of elections Ion Sancho says.

Sancho arranged for an independent study by Black Box Voting with security experts Harri Hursti and Dr. Herbert Thompson, discovering critical security flaws in the Diebold voting system. These flaws were confirmed in a study ordered by the California Secretary of state. Today the state of Florida issued a Technical Advisory to all Supervisors of Elections based on these findings.

And today, Sancho received a letter from Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and Sec. State Sue Cobb, threatening action by the state of Florida to take over Leon County elections.
(Link: Letter from Jeb Bush/Sue Cobb to Sancho)

Ion Sancho is one of the most highly respected elections officials in the nation. He stood up to the state of Florida, refusing to cooperate with purging voters who are not felons from the voters list, working from lists provided by the state of Florida erroneously claiming they were felons.
Felon Disenfranchisement: Purging the Minority Vote

It is Sancho who was chosen to lead the Florida hand count in the contentious 2000 Bush v. Gore race. The U.S. Supreme Court nixed the hand count.
Scarcely begun, recounts halted in 5-4 U.S. Supreme Court ruling

And it is Sancho who has provided the most convincing evidence of the utter failure of both the federal testing labs and Florida's state voting machine testing. Neither the federal labs caught the defects which are referred to in the Hursti Report as "the mother of all security holes" and "an unlockable revolving door."

Diebold knew

After the findings in Leon County were published in May 2005, Diebold responded by attacking and smearing the messenger (Ion Sancho), denying the problem instead of fixing the system.
Diebold letters to officials

Instead of warning other elections officials so they could improve security by taking countermeasures, Diebold sent hundreds of letters to elections officials throughout the U.S. smearing Sancho for being "irresponsible" and denying that the flaws exist.

Diebold's denials didn't work in Pennsylvania. The state of Pennsylvania, after independent testing by Carnegie-Mellon computer scientist Michael Shamos, refused to certify the system.
Pennsylvania declines some Diebold...

The state of California commissioned its own independent study (Berkeley Report), which confirmed the results from Leon County...

(FYI Michael Shamos and I had a brief email exchange a year ago. He is tough on Blackbox voting, and has championed electronic voting time and again, but even he acknowledges that the recent hacks into Diebold systems are valid and makes them unreliable.)

Article continues at the link.

http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/1954/19494.html

There is also a more recent story on this issue here:

http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/1954/19545.html

 

[russ_watters]

So if an election official solicits a study from conspiracy theory nuts, that makes the conspiracy theory nuts legitimate? I don't think so: that makes the election official a conspiracy theory nut.

Sorry, after the lies BBV has published in the past, their allegations of lies by others prove hollow.

 

[Tsu]

Yeah. It's all conspiracy theory.

 

[russ_watters]

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[pattylou]

So if an election official solicits a study from conspiracy theory nuts, that makes the conspiracy theory nuts legitimate? I don't think so: that makes the election official a conspiracy theory nut.

Sorry, after the lies BBV has published in the past, their allegations of lies by others prove hollow.

What lies? References please.

The tests were replicated by California, and the shortcoming (the hack) was acknowledged by Diebold.

You have choice. You can:

1. Decide that Diebold also buys into the conspiracy theory
2. Recognize that Black Box Voting is right on this issue
3. Continue to ignore it. This choice means that you don't care about democracy.

Which do you choose?

 

[pattylou]

Also, you fail to acknowledge that Diebold breaches contract here.

This may be similar to getting Capone on tax evasion, in terms of scale, but as breach-of-contract is the point of this thread, I would request that you address what that says about Diebold.

 

[pattylou]

Russ, You've been online but have not provided the references I've asked for. Until you provide them, I conclude that you made up the statement that BBV lies. Did you make it up intentionally?

Tsu: The use of the phrase "conspiracy theory" is entirely innappropriate. None of this issue is "conspiracy theory." Black box voting is a consumer advocacy group. They publicize what they learn about shortcomings in electronic voting machines, and push for paper trails and hand counts. This is hardly an unreasonable position, particularly given:

(1) the Government Accountability Office's conclusion that electronic machines are vulnerable http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05956.pdf

(2) Three different hacks, at different levels of clearance, over the last two years, each verified independently and replicated and recognized by states election boards across the country (for the latest hack see here: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13410061.htm )

(3) Other vote fraud news - there are headlines every week or two showing corruption within the companies, lying from the companies to their customers (Diebold employee manual says to "say anything to promote the product," infamous memos about delivering elections to one candidate or another, exit polls that do not match poll tapes, virtually all errors going to a single candidate, etc etc etc --- it is in the news *all the time.*)

I have no doubt that Russ (et al) would be happy to conclude corruption in many types of companies. But somehow, the idea that the voting in our country is corrupt, is something that won't be considered. Goddammit, it's the basis of our society. How anyone can be so irresponsible as to not consider the possibility in light of the evidence - Well it's true what they say that such people don't deserve a democracy. When these people have children who inherit our debt and a war-torn world, I hope they will realize their lack of willingness to consider this issue may have played a part in how the world is being shaped.

Here are some recent mainstream headlines, to illustrate the point about this being in the news all the time:

Election official hammered for telling the truth
Miami Herald, FL - Mar 7, 2006
... Sancho had dispatched renowned computer expert Harri Hursti of Finland to attempt to hack Leon County's Diebold voting system. He did. ...

Sacramento Bee No-confidence vote on electronic system
Sacramento Bee, USA - Mar 2, 2006
... of Diebold confirmed that one vulnerability exposed last year by computer hacker Harri Hursti existed and found 16 new bugs in Diebold's programming code. ...


Maryland on the Verge of Major Election Reform
American Chronicle, CA - Feb 15, 2006
... The current controversy stems from the infamous Leon County hack of the Diebold machines by Harri Hursti and Black Box Voting. The ...

Documents show Maryland held election, primary on uncertified ...
Raw Story, MA - Feb 16, 2006
... The Diebold voting machines used in Maryland since 2002 use a common PCMCIA ... Just last month, computer expert Harri Hursti showed Florida election officials in ...

I wish people like Russ would stop being childish (namecalling, head-in-the-sand etc.). I wish he could see how childish he is being. I provide referenced sources from the US government (for crying out loud) including references to Michael Shamos who has appeared in front of senate panels supporting electronic voting, but who concludes that Diebold is not certifiable. Shamos has no love for BBV, and supports electronic systems! He is hardly a conspiracy nut.

It frightens me that people in scientific disciplines don't even look at evidence, but merely knee-jerk a response about conspiracy theories.

I have no hope that Russ will ever look at these things for my sake, but I do hope he wakes up and considers for himself, that his future is being written by people who may not have been chosen by the american people.

 

[Pat A. Vesely]

So if an election official solicits a study from conspiracy theory nuts, that makes the conspiracy theory nuts legitimate? I don't think so: that makes the election official a conspiracy theory nut.

Sorry, after the lies BBV has published in the past, their allegations of lies by others prove hollow.

Hi Russ! Could you please do us the honor of posting a link to these supposed "lies" that Black Box Voting.org has published? I'm certain that some here would love to see what you consider a "lie" and your 'reasoning' behind it. I know I sure would! I'll even help you by giving you the links to the 'Black Box Voting - Ballot Tampering in the 21st Century' book in pdf format so you don't have to search for it.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-1.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-2.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-3.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-4.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-5.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-6.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-7.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-9.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-10.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-11.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-12.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-13.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-14.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-15.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-16.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_appendix.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_footnotes.pdf
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_index.pdf

Looking forward to your response!

Pat A. Vesely ;-)
Charter Member
Black Box Voting.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.org

 

[SOS2008]

So if an election official solicits a study from conspiracy theory nuts, that makes the conspiracy theory nuts legitimate? I don't think so: that makes the election official a conspiracy theory nut.

Sorry, after the lies BBV has published in the past, their allegations of lies by others prove hollow.

Apparently you haven't read the new guidelines for P&WA. If you choose to disagree with the OP, you too are expected to provide supporting evidence.

I saw an incredible article about e-voting, but there wasn't an active thread at the time so I didn't post it or save it. However, there's a lot of information out there from credible sources for those who with an open mind (like a parachute a closed mind isn't worth much) and those who want to ensure democratic processes in our country. For example this article that was published by PC World:

E-Voting Problems Crop Up

As Election Day progresses, scattered reports of malfunctions surface.

Paul Roberts, IDG News Service
Tuesday, November 02, 2004

Reports of problems with electronic voting technology cropped up across the country Tuesday, including in the closely contested states of Pennsylvania and Ohio, as millions of U.S. citizens flooded polling places for the country's presidential election.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,118431,00.asp

The issue of electronic voting and unacceptable probability for fraud is only one of many issues, thus the least of my worries. I always say no empire can collapse unless deteriorating from within first. Therefore we are our own worst enemies, and the naysayers who are either in denial or complacent are why our country has been going down the toilet.

 

[pattylou]

The Maryland House of Representatives is a bunch of conspiracy nuts.

The bill, which passed 137-0 with little debate, prohibits the use of Diebold voting machines in this year’s elections amid concerns from both parties that the machines don’t provide paper receipts that could be counted by hand in case of a contested election.

Republican Gov. Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. has called for paper records of votes and will likely sign the optical-scan measure if it comes to his desk.
“Our electoral process … must be safeguarded,” said Del. Anthony O’Donnell, R-Calvert, the second-ranking Republican in the House.

“The machines we have right now are very susceptible” to fraud, Mr. O’Donnell added.

http://www.hometownannapolis.com/cgi-bin/read/2006/03_10-56/TOP

I am glad to see that this issue is getting serious coverage.

SOS: I am curious why you think that e-voting is the least of your concerns. If you consider that many politicians may be in office illegitimately, and if these officials are reponsible for everything from picking representatives to the UN to picking Supreme Court justices, then doesn't vote fraud become enmeshed in the very *basis* of all the things that are problematic in the country today?

 

[SOS2008]

SOS: I am curious why you think that e-voting is the least of your concerns. If you consider that many politicians may be in office illegitimately, and if these officials are reponsible for everything from picking representatives to the UN to picking Supreme Court justices, then doesn't vote fraud become enmeshed in the very *basis* of all the things that are problematic in the country today?

The e-voting problem is a problem--I don't mean to belittle it. But it is not the only problem with fair elections. Dirty politics, such as what Shrub did to Ann Richards on the way to the Governors Mansion, then what he did to McCain in the Republican primaries, then what Jeb and Katherine Harris did to help him in Florida. And all the other tactics such as redistricting, placing gay marriage props on the ballot (religious organizations endorsing Bush from the pulpit), and outright voter intimidation/misinformation, not to mention the 'K' Street project headed up by "The Hammer" Tom DeLay and Rick Santorum to direct lobby funds to Republican candidates. That's just in regard to election reform issues.

Yet Tom DeLay was just chosen by the Republicans in Texas to run again in 2006, and the Republicans in the RNC have shown tremendous support for Bill Frist (Dr. Schiavo) to run as president in 2008 (and large support for Bush if he could run again!). What is wrong with people!?

And these issues are all nothing compared to issues such as NSA spying, IMO. But it gets back to a deeper problem in our country at the root of it all, what Al Gore refers to as lack of Rule of Reason:

I thought maybe it was an aberration when three-quarters of Americans said they believed that Saddam Hussein was responsible for attacking us on September 11, 2001. But more than four years later, between a third and a half still believe Saddam was personally responsible for planning and supporting the attack.

...Are we still routinely torturing helpless prisoners, and if so, does it feel right that we as American citizens are not outraged by the practice? And does it feel right to have no ongoing discussion of whether or not this abhorrent, medieval behavior is being carried out in the name of the American people? If the gap between rich and poor is widening steadily and economic stress is mounting for low-income families, why do we seem increasingly apathetic and lethargic in our role as citizens?

...In fact there was a time when America's public discourse was consistently much more vivid, focused and clear. Our Founders, probably the most literate generation in all of history, used words with astonishing precision and believed in the Rule of Reason.

Their faith in the viability of Representative Democracy rested on their trust in the wisdom of a well-informed citizenry. But they placed particular emphasis on insuring that the public could be well-informed. And they took great care to protect the openness of the marketplace of ideas in order to ensure the free-flow of knowledge.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/10/5/14301/6133

So let's say we get the voting machine matter all cleared up. How do you think people will vote if they believe Saddam was personally responsible for the 9-11 attack? We have bigger problems in our country, believe me.

 

[pattylou]

I agree with what you're saying, I suppose. I think the electronic machine fraud is a *new* problem, whereas the other problems were present before, and in that sense deserves more attention because it shouldn't be tolerated.

I wonder if people can think beyond their immediate environment. Maybe we're too limited. One more indication that there are too many people on the planet - we evolved in small tribes, where we could see first hand what was going on. Maybe representative government on a continental or global scale is hopeless.

We didn't evolve with spin doctors and propaganda about events on the other side of the planet. In a way I want to rail at the american people for not being responsible about learning something of these issues. On the other hand maybe we aren't capable of it. You're above average intelligence, and so am I, and yet I doubt even either of us know as much as we perhaps should on all the issues that are going on.

I had no idea Delay was just selected again. Jeez louise.

Edit: I also think people believe that about Saddam, because of bush. I think his speeches are intentionally obfuscating. If Gore had the presidency, and had acted differently after 911, then people wouldn't link Saddam to 911. We'd still be at the mercy of our own inability to think beyond our environment, but you could argue that the wrong 2000 election result led to people believing what they do about Saddam.

 

[Art]

So if an election official solicits a study from conspiracy theory nuts, that makes the conspiracy theory nuts legitimate? I don't think so: that makes the election official a conspiracy theory nut.

Sorry, after the lies BBV has published in the past, their allegations of lies by others prove hollow.

In keeping with the PWA guidelines would you please provide a reference for the part I bolded.

 

[edward]

At the very bottom of this link is a very interesting video clip. On the way down the page are some very good graphics relating to the Ohio vote.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud_ohio.html

 

[Burnsys]

more conspiracy theory nuts:

House Judiciary Committee, John Conyers, Jr. (D-Mich.)

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/triad_ohio.gif
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/triad_ohio2.gif

December 23, 2004 letter from ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, John Conyers, Jr. (D-Mich.) to the president of Triad Election System.

Triad had Remote Access to Machines

Michigan Congressman calls for FBI investigation into Ohio election
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/news/item.php?keyid=8172&page=1&category=31&scategory=0&PHPSESSID=

 

[russ_watters]

What lies? References please.

Pattylou, it was your thread and you acknowledged that you had been mislead:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=94748&page=2

You posted:

Well, I have Volusia county in mind. This is the county where 16,000 Gore votes disappeared on election night and were never recovered.

And then I pointed out that the votes were recovered and you posted:

It looks like this glaring error was caught and corrected

Now, I haven't been able to find the original reference (still looking) to verify what was actually said and later references (such as in the book) do reflect the fact that the error was corrected. Regardless, the intent was to mislead you into thinking fraud had occurred and in that BBV was successful. You believed something that was wrong because BBV mislead you (also, that link you provided - it doesn't mention the fact that the error was corrected, leading you to believe it wasn't).

Also, direct lies are something conspiracy theorists try to avoid, while being as misleading as possible. Direct lies are too easy to prove, whereas Michael Moore School of Video Editing type deceptions are "merely" intentionally misleading. Either way, the goal is to get you to believe something that is either flat-out untrue or, at the very best, that the evidence does not support.

 

[russ_watters]

Pat A. Vesely ;-)
Charter Member
Black Box Voting.org

Glad to have you aboard!

 

[russ_watters]

Regarding my core claim, that BBV is a conspiracy theory site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

Feature #1 is the key feature of this issue and BBV's game:

Initiated on the basis of limited, partial or circumstantial evidence

They also specifically list this issue as a conspiracy theory issue.

If you guys would like to turn this into a thread about whether or not BBV is a conspiracy theory site (or, more generally, that the 'Bush-Stole-the-2000-Election' issue is a conspiracy theory) or split it or start a new thread, I'd be more than happy to go through the issue.

 

[Art]

Regarding my core claim, that BBV is a conspiracy theory site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

Feature #1 is the key feature of this issue and BBV's game: They also specifically list this issue as a conspiracy theory issue.

If you guys would like to turn this into a thread about whether or not BBV is a conspiracy theory site (or, more generally, that the 'Bush-Stole-the-2000-Election' issue is a conspiracy theory) or split it or start a new thread, I'd be more than happy to go through the issue.

So apart from an error which was rectified and an article on Wiki which could have been written by yourself there is actually no evidence to support your claim.

What was that you were saying about misleading statements??

 

[russ_watters]

So apart from an error which was rectified and an article on Wiki which could have been written by yourself there is actually no evidence to support your claim.

Fortunately for me, pattylou herself is the evidence! She was mislead.

 

[russ_watters]

Here is an interesting article about the founder of BBV being banned from a far-left wing message board because she was disruptive and abusive. Again, behavior consistent with conspiracy theory. http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,65928-0.html?tw=wn_politics_evote_8

It includes several nice tidbits:

Harris' expulsion from Democratic Underground follows a disagreement she recently had with producers of MSNBC's show Countdown with Keith Olbermann, which, until now, has been supportive of Harris' work.

Last week Olbermann criticized Harris for not publicly releasing film footage said to reveal questionable vote-tabulating practices in Volusia County, Florida. The footage, which was filmed by a documentary crew that has been following Harris for a year, is said to show paper voting records from a bag of garbage that Harris obtained after scuffling with Volusia County election officials outside their offices. Harris has implied on her website and in other public statements that the records indicate actions that "are consistent with fraud."

'I have evidence but you can't see it' is a very common conspiracy theorist tactic.

 

[Art]

So to summarise the answer is no, you can't provide examples of lies from BBV.

 

[russ_watters]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2002087790_voting11.html" is a story on election 2004 conspiracy theories, with a poingiant quote at the end:

A high-ranking Democrat, mindful of balancing respect for the complainers and a desire to move on, summed up the conspiracy theorists with a line from Alexander Pope: "Hope springs eternal in the human breast."

More http://www.slate.com/id/2109416/"

By recent standards, George W. Bush's 2004 presidential election victory was remarkably uncontroversial. Not only did he win both the popular and electoral votes, but, with a couple of exceptions, voting went relatively smoothly nationwide. So, were all those fears about evil vote-machine companies stealing the election unfounded? And what about those dire prognostications about the dangers of electronic voting machines that don't have paper trails? (For a comprehensive, non-partisan background on the perils and benefits of e-voting, check out Wired's archive here.)

Well, according to e-voting haters and some bloggers, the fact that the election went smoothly is no comfort—the whole problem with electronic voting is that someone could swoop in and change votes without anyone having a clue.

The second paragraph highlights the inherrent conspiracy-theoryish nature of Black Box Voting: fear of the unknown. Since what happens isn't always know, people speculate.

 

[Art]

Russ, Perhaps a visit to BBV's site http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/8/114.html would be enlightening and allow you to formulate a position based on knowledge rather than casting wild conspiracy theory accusations about them without any evidence.

 

[pattylou]

Pattylou, it was your thread and you acknowledged that you had been mislead:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=94748&page=2

You posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pattylou
Well, I have Volusia county in mind. This is the county where 16,000 Gore votes disappeared on election night and were never recovered.

And then I pointed out that the votes were recovered and you posted:

Originally Posted by pattylou
It looks like this glaring error was caught and corrected

Now, I haven't been able to find the original reference (still looking) to verify what was actually said and later references (such as in the book) do reflect the fact that the error was corrected. Regardless, the intent was to mislead you into thinking fraud had occurred and in that BBV was successful. You believed something that was wrong because BBV mislead you (also, that link you provided - it doesn't mention the fact that the error was corrected, leading you to believe it wasn't).

Also, direct lies are something conspiracy theorists try to avoid, while being as misleading as possible. Direct lies are too easy to prove, whereas Michael Moore School of Video Editing type deceptions are "merely" intentionally misleading. Either way, the goal is to get you to believe something that is either flat-out untrue or, at the very best, that the evidence does not support.

Russ, I have gone through the entire thread (And it's not mine, by the way, it's yours.). I state quite clearly in that thread, that my 16,000 reference was *not* from BBV. (I know you think otherwise, but I don't get most of my information from BBV.) Here's the reference to the 16,000 number in that thread:

I read the 16,000 number originally in the news article I linked two days ago and followed up with this:

http://www.votersunite.org/info/Dieboldinthenews.pdf

In light of this being no evidence for BBV being liars, please retract your statement that BBV lies.

(Wikipedia is your other source? Do you see any problems with using wikipedia as a source?)

 

[pattylou]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2002087790_voting11.html" is a story on election 2004 conspiracy theories, with a poingiant quote at the end:

This link does not lead to BBV.

More http://www.slate.com/id/2109416/" The second paragraph highlights the inherrent conspiracy-theoryish nature of Black Box Voting: fear of the unknown. Since what happens isn't always know, people speculate.

These aren't from BBV.

The poignant quote isn't from BBV. Michael Moore isn't associated with BBV. You are left with Bev Harris not getting along with the far left... (Somehow this supports your claim??) What is it you were saying about misdirecting people, and how that ties into conspiracy theories? ??

BBV is bipartisan.

BBV enables tests to see if the machines can be hacked.

In no way have you demonstrated that BBV is a conspiracy site, or that they lie. I suspect you aren't familiar with BBV, at all.

 

[Pat A. Vesely]

Hi Russ, Thanks for the welcome!

I find it quite ironic that you still continue to make claims that BBV.org lies while you engage in twisting the truth and distorting the facts. Just a hint, using wikipedia as a source to back up your claims does nothing for your credibility.

In the following example you make the ridiculous claim the BBV.org was deliberately trying to deceive people into thinking that the -16,022 votes for Al Gore was part of some conspiracy. Any reasonable reading of the text printed in the book proves otherwise.

That incident is covered in two places in the book. In Chapter 2, "Can We Trust These Machines", it is mentioned on page 16 in the context that negative votes were erroneously entered into a voting system in sufficient numbers as to cause a presidential candidate to almost concede the election prematurely. Like it or not it happened, that's a fact.

In chapter 13, "Security Breaches", pages 170 trough 178 go into detail about that specific incident. Everything written in that section is fact and has been thoroughly vetted by all involved. That section also raises some specific concerns and asks important questions that still remain unanswered. One of the most important unanswered questions is who specifically loaded the "Copy 3" card that replaced the votes from the previously loaded "Copy 1" card, and where did it go after it was loaded?

Please explain how you came to the conclusion that it was our "intent" to deceive the readers by posting the facts surrounding the incident and asking questions that remain unanswered.

Had proper procedures been followed, there would be an audit trail of every entry made into the election database, and a clear indication of who made them. We merely point out the shortcomings of the system as it was set up and we draw no conclusions as to what actually happened. The text clearly points out that the mistake was caught and corrected. Your intent, as evidenced by your own words, is to deceive people about our intent!

And then I pointed out that the votes were recovered and you posted: Now, I haven't been able to find the original reference (still looking) to verify what was actually said and later references (such as in the book) do reflect the fact that the error was corrected. Regardless, the intent was to mislead you into thinking fraud had occurred and in that BBV was successful. You believed something that was wrong because BBV mislead you (also, that link you provided - it doesn't mention the fact that the error was corrected, leading you to believe it wasn't).

Also, direct lies are something conspiracy theorists try to avoid, while being as misleading as possible. Direct lies are too easy to prove, whereas Michael Moore School of Video Editing type deceptions are "merely" intentionally misleading. Either way, the goal is to get you to believe something that is either flat-out untrue or, at the very best, that the evidence does not support.

I'll leave it to the casual reader to look at the evidence provided and make up their own mind as to who is spreading lies in this instance.

Fortunately for me, pattylou herself is the evidence! She was mislead.

Be that as it may, please provide evidence that it was BBV.org that mislead pattylou. Had she relied on what we had published, she would have known the full story of what happened, including the fact that the mistake was caught and rectified. Again you attempt to mislead people into believing that BBV.org mislead her. You're engaging in conduct that is exactly what you claim we're doing. I believe that's called 'projection'. You might want to pick up a copy of Army Field Manual FM 33-1, Psychological Operations to learn more about it.

Harris' expulsion from Democratic Underground follows a disagreement she recently had with producers of MSNBC's show Countdown with Keith Olbermann, which, until now, has been supportive of Harris' work.

Last week Olbermann criticized Harris for not publicly releasing film footage said to reveal questionable vote-tabulating practices in Volusia County, Florida. The footage, which was filmed by a documentary crew that has been following Harris for a year, is said to show paper voting records from a bag of garbage that Harris obtained after scuffling with Volusia County election officials outside their offices. Harris has implied on her website and in other public statements that the records indicate actions that "are consistent with fraud."

It's ironic that you brought that up since the incident in Volusia County is related to the same jurisdiction that produced the -16,022 votes for Gore and added 4,000 votes for Bush in the 2000 election.

Truth be known, I was also banned from DU with several other BBV.org members at the same time Bev Harris was. I wear that as a badge of honor. The disagreement that lead to our banning from that site stemmed from BBV.org having fired a paid investigator and DUer that had claimed that a notorious character named Delbert 'Mike' Vreeland, who claimed that he was an agent with military intelligence, called him to warn of an impending nuclear attack on the 'Twin Cities' just before the 2004 election. We begged him not to go public with such outlandish allegations but he did anyway.

That same investigator also went on to claim that Whitehouse press corps member, and former male prostitute, Jeff Gannon, was in actuality little Johnny Gosch, a young paperboy who had vanished years earlier. He made those allegations on MSNBC where he demanded that Gannon submit to a DNA test to prove he wasn't the kid who disappeared! We were all banned and he became the DU election fraud darling. DU has basically become the 'www.freerepublic.com' of the left.

The video of that incident was turned over to attorneys representing Susan Pynchon in a lawsuit against Volusia county. (She won) After the suit was settled the tape was publicly posted on the BBV.org website in June of 2005. Despite that fact, certain members of DU continued to spread the lie that we had never published it or turned it over to anyone. The tape can be viewed at the following link.

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/2197/6737.html?1140769702

Had our intent been to simply mislead the public as you suggest, we would have turned the tape over to the press rather than enter it as evidence in a lawsuit. Bev and BBV.org would not have gone to the tremendous expense of filing over 3000 FOIA requests to conduct audits of the 2004 election results if we only cared about deceiving people. The purpose of our organization is to act as a public watchdog agency for our elections. We conduct audits of our elections and let the evidence speak for itself.

If anyone would like to examine the evidence from Volusia County for themselves, copies of the actual poll tapes received by BBV.org from our FOIA request can be viewed at the following link.

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/2197/15675.html?1140792920

Once again russ, you have engaged in libel against our organization and have violated the policy of this site by posting unsupported allegations about us. Please either offer proof of your allegations or retract your claim.

Pat A. Vesely ;-)
Charter Member
Black Box Voting.org

Black Box Voting is a non partisan, non profit 501(c)(3) voting rights organization acting in the public interest.

 

[Amp1]

Thank you, Mr. Vesely for clearing that up, at least for me. Welcome to PF. Your rebuttal was eloquent and polite. I'm sure Russ is franticly searching for some 'evidence' to rebut your post. I have visited BBV a few times and find it fairly impartial and quite informative. If only the bulk of this countries citizens would be open minded enough to look through the information contained in BBV and similar sites, maybe we gradually elect a truly representative government or falling short of that putting enough real Americans in those offices where we can have real grassroots policies implemented. I find it unfortunate that a majority is held in thrall like the sheep in the book by George Orwell and bleet the party line over and over drowning out concerns, dissents, discourse and debates on policies that affect them as well as myself and other citizens of the US. Disclaimer: If you are not one of the ‘sheep’ the aforementioned does not apply to you.

 

[Tsu]

Tsu: The use of the phrase "conspiracy theory" is entirely innappropriate.

Ummm... you did notice the , didn't you? I believe it was Russ who was calling it (yet another) conspiracy theory.

A very hearty welcome to you, Mr. Vesely.

 

[pattylou]

Yes, of course I noticed it. I also noticed it was after the "so it's all conspiracy theory" comment ... thus I interpreted your rolled eyes as a nod that there might be some conspiracy theory, but not all.

My point is, I have no knowledge of any conspiracy theory wrt BBV.

This has no bearing on whether there are conspiracy nutters elsewhere, wrt vote fraud, and I expect that this is what Russ (and perhaps you, I don't know) is obliquely referring to. If it is, he should make the distinction and acknowledge that he has no evidence that BBV has ever lied or tried to mislead the public. (I wonder why he hasn't done that yet? Maybe he's still reading the PDF that was provided.)

I also used your post as an opportunity to expound on a few other points (such as the governmental accountability offuice's acknowledgment that the machines are not safe.). I didn't think you would mind, and I apologise if you took it personally.

 

[loseyourname]

(I wonder why he hasn't done that yet? Maybe he's still reading the PDF that was provided.)

The forum has been down for the last twelve hours or so. Plus, he could be doing other things, like moderating the engineering forum or moving into the house he just bought.

Either way, it might be nice to steer this thread away from the question of whether or not BBV hosts conspiracy theories and is to be trusted and back to the matter of Diebold breaching contract, which seemed to be the original point. A breach of contract is purely a factual matter and not exactly source-dependent. It either happened or it didn't, regardless of who reports it.

 

[pattylou]

You prompted me to look at today's news on this item.

Sancho (the election supervisor who facilitated the demonstration of the most recent hack into Diebold) was in the very hard position of needing to provide voting machines for the disabled ... and the three main vendors that the state had contracts with refused to work with him (breach of contract) because of what he revealed about the memory card hack.

He had found another vendor (IVS) but it wasn't clear if FL would allow him to go that route or not.

With a sigh of relief today's news reports that he can get the machines he needs from IVS.

Sancho gets OK to seek a deal

He came in prepared for a grilling, but embattled Elections Supervisor Ion Sancho left the Leon County Commission chambers Tuesday with a unanimous vote of confidence.

The commissioners gave Sancho a green light to pursue a deal with a Louisville, Ky.-based company to provide voting equipment for disabled people. The company, IVS, was the last option on the table that would make Leon County compliant with federal elections law come the September primaries.

The motion drew sighs of relief from more than a dozen Sancho supporters who had come to the workshop worried that Sancho would come under attack from certain commissioners for his failure to sign a contract for voting equipment for the disabled, a delay that has already cost the county about $500,000 in withheld state funding.

<snip>

Sancho received a similar vote of confidence from the commissioners, despite politically charged remarks and brinkmanship by several of them: County Commission Chairman Bill Proctor suggested the commissioners should be making its own contacts with elections systems companies; Commissioner Cliff Thaell, a Democrat, wanted to have the commissioners recognize Sancho as a hero for liberty - an idea that had many members of the public clapping thunderously; Commissioner Tony Grippa, a Republican, drew hisses from the audience when he called Thaell's comments "grandstanding" and asked the audience how many of them were Republicans.

http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060315/NEWS01/603150336/1010

 

[pattylou]

(p.s. I know I sound harsh, and I do apologise for that element of the discussion. I hold certain members of this forum to a high ethical and behavioral standard because they have good qualities - if someone is capable of making certain distinctions and/or concessions, then that is not a bad thing! It sounds trite, but these requests are actually a compliment of sorts. :) Also, as everyone knows, I feel very strongly about this issue, and I don't think that *anyone* could argue that ignoring it would make anything safer or better. Staying informed and being thorough and honest with ourselves is a better way to go.)