What is the correct definition of energy in relativistic systems?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition of energy in relativistic systems, particularly focusing on the relationship between kinetic energy, potential energy, and total energy. Participants explore mathematical derivations and the implications of relativistic effects on these definitions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a derivation involving the equation K + U = E, incorporating relativistic effects and questions the interpretation of the constant C in their integral solution for potential energy.
  • Another participant suggests that the total energy E is constant, implying that dE/dv = 0, which may challenge the previous derivation.
  • A different viewpoint emphasizes the importance of precise definitions, arguing that energy should be defined as a functional composition of the Hamiltonian with respect to coordinates and momenta, and notes that potential energy can only be measured as differences across space.
  • Concerns are raised about the dependence of the Hamiltonian on momentum and velocity, suggesting that this affects the interpretation of energy in the context of the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definitions and implications of energy in relativistic contexts, with no consensus reached on the correct interpretation or derivation of potential energy.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for precision in definitions and the potential for confusion arising from different interpretations of energy, particularly in relation to the Hamiltonian framework and the treatment of potential energy.

Hyperreality
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If a particle is in a ideal inertial system, with only potential energy and kinetic energy present, then

K + U = E

If we take in account of the relativistic effect, we get

\frac{mc^2}{\sqrt{(1-\frac{v^2}{c^2})}}-mc^2+U=E

If we differentiate both side with respect to its velocity,

\frac{mv}{\sqrt{(1-\frac{v^2}{c^2})^3}}+dU/dv=0

So far, I'm fairly sure my derivations are correct, for I use the last result to derive the "relativistc" force F=ma x gamma^3.

Now, for the next bit, if I solve for U using indefinite integral I ended with
U=\frac{mc^2}{\sqrt{(1-\frac{v^2}{c^2})}}+C.

What is C?

If I did it by definite integral from 0 to v, I ended with the relativistic kinetic energy. Which is right??
 
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Hyperreality said:
If a particle is in a ideal inertial system, with only potential energy and kinetic energy present, then

K + U = E

If we take in account of the relativistic effect, we get

\frac{mc^2}{\sqrt{(1-\frac{v^2}{c^2})}}-mc^2+U=E

If we differentiate both side with respect to its velocity,

\frac{mv}{\sqrt{(1-\frac{v^2}{c^2})^3}}+dU/dv=0

So far, I'm fairly sure my derivations are correct, for I use the last result to derive the "relativistc" force F=ma x gamma^3.

Now, for the next bit, if I solve for U using indefinite integral I ended with
U=\frac{mc^2}{\sqrt{(1-\frac{v^2}{c^2})}}+C.

What is C?

If I did it by definite integral from 0 to v, I ended with the relativistic kinetic energy. Which is right??

The prob. is not what C is.
You should write:
\frac{mv}{\sqrt{(1-\frac{v^2}{c^2})^3}}+dU/dv=dE/dv

blue
 
Yes, I should.

But note that E is the total energy of the system, so it is a contant,

ie, dE/dv = 0.
 
Be careful, you must be precise with your definitions or you will run into problems.

Energy is more appropriately defined as the functional composition of the Hamiltonian with the coordinates/momenta of the system as a function of time i.e. E(t)=H(q(t),p(t)). This is, by conservation laws, constant, but this is not what you had in your equation. You had the Hamiltonian, which indeed has dependence on momentum (and thus velocity) otherwise the particle (by Hamilton's equations) would be at rest.

In your instance the Hamiltonian is defined as H(q,p) = K(p) + U(q,p) where K(p) and U(q,p) are the kinetic and potential energies for a particle at position q with momentum p.

However, you did something slightly correct and interesting, which is that potential energy can never be found absolutely. You can only ever hope to measure/calculate differences in potential across space, thus all potentials can have a (spatial) constant added to them and the observable physics of the system in question will not change.
 

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