What is the equivalent property for magnetic fields and how is it formulated?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the properties of magnetic fields in relation to electric fields, specifically exploring whether there exists an equivalent property for magnetic fields similar to that of point charges and spherically symmetric charge densities in electrostatics. Participants inquire about the formulation of such properties and the implications of different current distributions that could yield the same magnetic fields at certain points in space.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that a point charge creates the same electric field as any spherically symmetric charge density for points outside the support of the density, questioning if a similar property exists for magnetic fields.
  • Another participant suggests using integral forms of field solutions to explore the problem further.
  • Integral representations for electric and magnetic fields are presented, but one participant expresses uncertainty about their utility in proving invariance properties related to electric fields.
  • A later reply discusses the need to demonstrate that a uniform spherical charge distribution produces an electric field equivalent to that of a point charge, indicating a potential method for proving the desired properties.
  • There is a claim that electric fields can be reduced to the total charge multiplied by the electric field of a point charge at the center of the charge distribution, but this is contested by another participant who argues that this is not universally true.
  • Participants discuss the implications of non-symmetric charge distributions, suggesting that electric fields can be represented as a superposition of fields from monopole, dipole, and quadrupole sources.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of electric fields generated by various charge distributions, particularly regarding the conditions under which certain simplifications hold. There is no consensus on the equivalent property for magnetic fields or the formulation thereof.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of spherical symmetry in charge distributions for certain claims, and there are unresolved mathematical steps regarding the proof of invariance properties. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of the implications of charge distributions on electric fields.

jostpuur
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It is well known, that a point charge [itex]q\delta^3(\boldsymbol{x}-\boldsymbol{x}')[/itex] creates the same electric field [itex]\boldsymbol{E}(\boldsymbol{x})[/itex] as any spherically symmetric charge density [itex]\rho(\boldsymbol{x})[/itex] around the point [itex]\boldsymbol{x}'[/itex], with the right total charge, for the points [itex]\boldsymbol{x}[/itex] that lie outside the support of [itex]\rho[/itex].

Is there an equivalent property for the magnetic fields? How is it formulated?

I've heard that there exists several different current distributions which give rise to equal magnetic fields (for some points in space), but I've never seen what these equivalent current densities really would have to look like.
 
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Try integral forms of the field solutions.
 
[tex] \boldsymbol{E}(\boldsymbol{x}) = \frac{1}{4\pi \epsilon_0} \int d^3y\; \rho(\boldsymbol{y})<br /> \frac{\boldsymbol{x}-\boldsymbol{y}}{\|\boldsymbol{x}-\boldsymbol{y}\|^3}[/tex]

[tex] \boldsymbol{B}(\boldsymbol{x}) = \frac{\mu_0}{4\pi} \int d^3y\; \frac{\boldsymbol{j}(\boldsymbol{y})<br /> \times (\boldsymbol{x}-\boldsymbol{y})}{\|\boldsymbol{x}-\boldsymbol{y}\|^3}[/tex]

I don't know how these help me. I don't even know what these help in the case of electric field. If I replace the current density [itex]\rho[/itex] with some convolution

[tex] \overline{\rho}(\boldsymbol{x}) = \int d^3z\; K(\boldsymbol{x}-\boldsymbol{z})\rho(\boldsymbol{z}),[/tex]

how do you start proving some invariance properties of the electric field, using spherical symmetry of the kernel [itex]K[/itex]?
 
Actually the electric field problem can be dealt with. If one wants to prove that

[tex] \overline{\boldsymbol{E}}(\boldsymbol{x}) = \frac{1}{4\pi \epsilon_0} \int d^3y\;<br /> \overline{\rho}(\boldsymbol{y}) \frac{\boldsymbol{x}-\boldsymbol{y}}{\|\boldsymbol{x}-\boldsymbol{y}\|^3}<br /> = \cdots = \boldsymbol{E}(\boldsymbol{x}),[/tex]

one has to show that

[tex] \int d^3r\; K(\boldsymbol{r}) \frac{\boldsymbol{x} - \boldsymbol{z} - \boldsymbol{r}}{\|\boldsymbol{x} - \boldsymbol{z} - \boldsymbol{r}\|^3} = \frac{\boldsymbol{x}-\boldsymbol{z}}{\|\boldsymbol{x}-\boldsymbol{z}\|^3}.[/tex]

I don't know a nice way to do that, but if one knows how to prove that a uniform spherical charge distribution creates an equal electric field as a point charge, then it can be used to carry out the integral over [itex]\boldsymbol{r}[/itex].

But the integral representations did not yet turn out to be helpful for my current charge problem.
 
For electrical filed it should be reduced to the total charge multiplied by an electric filed of a point at the charge "center", if the integration region is larger than the charge cloud.
 
Bob_for_short said:
For electrical filed it should be reduced to the total charge multiplied by an electric filed of a point at the charge "center", if the integration region is larger than the charge cloud.

Are you trying to say that electric fields are always like [itex]\propto \boldsymbol{r}/r^3[/itex], provided that the charge distribution is in some bounded domain and we are interested in the field outside the domain? That claim would certainly not be true.
 
jostpuur said:
Are you trying to say that electric fields are always like [itex]\propto \boldsymbol{r}/r^3[/itex], provided that the charge distribution is in some bounded domain and we are interested in the field outside the domain? That claim would certainly not be true.

No, the charge distribution should be, of course, spherically simmetric: ρ(r) but not obligatorily r-independent.

If you have a non-symmetric charge distribution ρ(r), the lectric field can be represented as a superposition of fileds of a monopole, dipole, quadrupole, etc., sources.
 

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