What is the Purpose of Torque?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of torque, particularly its definition, mathematical representation, and the reasoning behind its perpendicular nature to both the force and radius. Participants explore the implications of torque in rotational motion and its relationship with angular momentum, while also questioning the intuitive understanding of these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe torque as the power of a force to change an object's rotational motion, noting that applying force further from the pivot point increases this effect.
  • There is confusion regarding why torque is defined as the cross product of force and radius, with participants questioning the perpendicular nature of torque to the applied force.
  • One participant suggests that torque being perpendicular is a mathematically efficient convention for representing torque and angular quantities.
  • Another participant illustrates the concept using a wrench and bolt, emphasizing the necessity of a force component perpendicular to the radius to produce torque.
  • A participant introduces the analogy of a torsion spring to explain the concept of torque and its relationship to potential energy stored in twisted springs.
  • There is a summary that reiterates the question of why torque is perpendicular to both force and radius, explaining that the torque vector is parallel to the rotation axis and its direction indicates the rotation direction.
  • Participants discuss the implications of the cross product in determining the magnitude and direction of torque, highlighting its utility in vector addition of multiple torques.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the definition and implications of torque, with some agreeing on its mathematical representation while others remain confused about its perpendicular nature. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the intuitive understanding of torque.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the foundational assumptions underlying the definition of torque, particularly regarding the intuitive grasp of its perpendicular nature and its implications in physical scenarios.

as2528
Messages
40
Reaction score
9
TL;DR
Why is torque perpendicular to force and radius?
From what I understand about torque, it is basically the power of the force to cause a change in an object's rotational motion. It is easier to cause this change when the force is applied further from the point of rotation than closer, which is why it is difficult to open a door by pressing a millimeter from the hinges, but much easier by pushing on the door a meter from the hinges.

However, I do not understand why the torque is the cross product of the force and radius. If I use a wrench and push on it, why is torque perpendicular to the force? I thought it would be in the same direction as the force. But it is perpendicular which seems to be counterintutitive as neither the force, the radius, or the change in angular motion is involved in that direction. What is torque meant to calculate then, and how does it make sense?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
as2528 said:
From what I understand about torque, it is basically the power of the force to cause a change in an object's rotational motion.
Force is the rate of transfer of linear momentum.
Torque is the rate of transfer of angular momentum.

Note that angular momentum doesn't imply that something is rotating.

as2528 said:
However, I do not understand why the torque is the cross product of the force and radius.
It's just a mathematically efficient convention to represent torque and other angular quantities like that.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: mathguy_1995, cancerman1, davyzhu and 3 others
as2528 said:
why is torque perpendicular to the force?

Have you tried to make a wrench and bolt rotate by pushing the wrench towards the pivot point of the bolt? :)
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: as2528 and topsquark
as2528 said:
why is torque perpendicular to the force?
malawi_glenn said:
Have you tried to make a wrench and bolt rotate by pushing the wrench towards the pivot point of the bolt? :)
@as2528 is asking why torque is perpendicular to the force, not why you need a force component perpendicular to radius in order to produce torque.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: as2528 and topsquark
Think of a torsion spring....like a spring of a mousetrap. the trap is set by bending the ends of the springs in opposite directions and perpendicular to the axis of the spring. Then along the axis of the spring potential energy is stored in the form of the spring twisted...or torsion.
 
Last edited:
as2528 said:
TL;DR Summary: Why is torque perpendicular to force and radius?

But it is perpendicular which seems to be counterintutitive as neither the force, the radius, or the change in angular motion is involved in that direction. What is torque meant to calculate then, and how does it make sense?
The vector representing torque c is parallel to the rotation axis (if the force b was free to move).

Furthermore, its direction indicates in what direction it would rotate (if the force b was free to move).

Finally, its length - as always - represents its magnitude.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_product#Definition said:
The cross product a × b is defined as a vector c that is perpendicular (orthogonal) to both a and b, with a direction given by the right-hand rule and a magnitude equal to the area of the parallelogram that the vectors span.

1024px-Right_hand_rule_cross_product.svg.png

This way, you can add (vectorially) the different torques in a model and get the resultant torque which will be parallel to the resultant rotation axis, indicating its magnitude and rotation direction. Multiple combinations of different force and position vectors could represent that resultant torque.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 52 ·
2
Replies
52
Views
7K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 49 ·
2
Replies
49
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
1K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
3K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
5K
  • · Replies 60 ·
3
Replies
60
Views
6K