What is the relationship between dℓ and dR in the sign convention for voltage?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the differential elements dℓ and dR in the context of voltage sign conventions, particularly in relation to line integrals along electric field lines. The scope includes theoretical aspects of electromagnetism and mathematical reasoning related to voltage calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes a contradiction in the sign of the voltage integral when taken anti-parallel to the field lines in different examples.
  • Another participant challenges the existence of a contradiction, suggesting that the resulting voltage is positive regardless of the path taken.
  • A third participant emphasizes that the sign of voltage is a tool for determining the direction of the electric field, focusing instead on the magnitude of voltage changes.
  • A later reply provides a detailed breakdown of the integral, indicating that the negative sign in the integrand cancels with another negative sign, leading to a positive voltage result, and raises a question about the relationship between dℓ and dR.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of voltage signs and the existence of contradictions in examples. No consensus is reached regarding the relationship between dℓ and dR or the implications of the sign convention.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific examples and equations without resolving the underlying assumptions or definitions related to the integrals and their limits.

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In the derivation for equation 24-2 in the picture below., the line integral was chosen along a path anti-parallel to the field lines. As a result, cos(180) = -1, which made the integral for the voltage positive.
Screenshot (66).png


However, in examples 24-2 and 24-3, the line integral is also taken as anti-parallel to the field lines, but the voltage integral remains negative. This seems contradictory.
Screenshot (67).png


Screenshot (68).png
 
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Try doing the line integral yourself to check.
Where is the contradiction? The resulting voltage comes out positive.
 
The sign of voltage is more like a tool to decide direction of field. It's the magnitude we are more concerned with. So in either case just find the magnitude and the field is from +ve to -ve. Or you can take it as potential decreases on direction of field.
(I just said this to make stuff easy. The line integral will give you the right result always. Do as Simon said.)
 
In Example 24-2, the integrand is ##\vec{E}\cdot d\vec{l} = \|\vec{E}\| \|d\vec{l}\| \cos 180^\circ = -\|\vec{E}\| \|d\vec{l}\|##. The negative sign cancels with the negative sign in front of the integral, so you have
$$V = \int_a^b \|\vec{E}\| \|d\vec{l}\| > 0.$$ Note that ##a## and ##R_a## don't mean exactly the same thing; this is why the limits on the integral change as the integral is written in terms of ##d\vec{l}## and then in terms of ##dR##. Now considering the fact that ##R_a > R_b##, how is ##\| d\vec{l} \|## related to ##dR##?
 

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