What is the Science Behind Electric Shock and Grounding?

[watcher]

I thought this thread was, well, dead. So..Watcher, thanks for the above information. . Along those lines could you fill us in on what happens when a capacitor has a negative charge put on the plates? Or, a positive one, for that matter. I am having some difficulty visualizing a wave stored on a capacitor plate.
DC

the atoms in negative capacitor plates does not have a surplus of electrons and the atoms in the positive plates have a deficiency of electrons is questionable. although this may be the normal thinking if one believes that electrons are forced to flow from one end of the wire to the other.

per oni's analogy is spot on. although this electron's flow analogy of Newton's pendulum balls was hardly be called a flow in a classical sense. it is obvious that what is being TRANSMITTED between the balls is energy.

it is is well known that the source of magnetic force is two electrons with the same spin stack on top over the other. so a magnet is nothing more than collection of electrons spinning in one direction. the effects of this alignment on copper wires is in turn aligned the copper electrons perpendicular to the magnet's electrons. this arrangement harness the innate repulsive force between electrons and an electrical force is build up between them.

so imo, a capacitor in just two plates whose one plate has an highly organized electron movement where the repulsive force between electrons are unified while the other plate is in chaotic motion where the repulsive force between electrons are just canceled out.

 

[DarioC]

Okay, Watcher, for starters:

"if you imagine electrons in a magnet as tiny gyroscopes that are all spinning in the same direction, then wrap a copper wire around it, a potential is generated."

No.

A wire wrapped around a magnet WILL NOT generate a potential difference, voltage, energy flow, whatever. MOVEMENT of the magnet or conductor relative to each other is required to induce a potential difference in the conductor.

A magnet/conductor combination will not produce a sustained direct current. It will eventually always produce a alternating potential/current. Mostly here we are talking about the most simple, bottom of the line electricity; like the voltage produced by a chemical battery. Maybe we should leave the magnets out of the discussion?

In one reply you admit that electron flow happens in conductors and then you turn around and dismiss the movement of electrons as existing in electrical theory. Strange.

DC

 

[Per Oni]

Hi watcher.

On the one hand no-one here wants to dampen your enthusiasm for physics but on the other hand you cannot just say: “imo this and that” without you giving us some relevant official websites supporting your ideas.

In a basic theory of electrical conduction I have never seen an explanation using electron spin, also your explanation of the capacitor is highly suspect. You will not get your grade (any grade) if you just go off on a tangent on your own. Perhaps after a long long time of doing your own thing will make you the new Einstein, but the chances are slim. One other thing is that using “imo” without references will get this thread closed pretty soon.

Just for the hell of it google “electron tube” (diode or triode) and see whether it changes your ideas of how current and energy flows. Best of luck.

 

[DarioC]

Oni, excellent idea on the electron tube. I was considering that for later. You have the correct approach of helping Watcher in your post, more so than mine I am embarrassed to admit.
DC

 

[Per Oni]

Hi DarioC.

Some time ago I had a discussion here about electrical currents and the flow of energy, and the end result (at least for me) was that there’s no way that electrical power is transported in a kind of mechanical way, be it hydraulic, a chain, Newton’s cradle, etc. The only analogy you can make is to compare electrical field with a gravitational field.

Using simple calculations the same as you did earlier on, when calculating drift speed etc. (post 26) you can prove that any other mechanical analogy falls flat. For example: calculate the force needed in a wire, to drive a 50 kW heater powered by a 10kV supply, using the correct gauge wire and the correct current density. Then work out the pressure generated.

The crucial question for me remains: how does the power get to its load. Suggestions are via the Poynting vector. This might perhaps work for ac but does the Poynting vector theory also include dc? I don’t know. I’m not sure about using Poynting to transport power this way. One thing is sure for me it’s all somehow in the em fields.

Best of luck with your search.
By the way I’m not always this patient, it all depends on how much time I’ve got.

 

[DarioC]

Oni, not to deflect the thread, but when I was considering mentioning a cathode ray tube to Watcher I got off on a train of thought: How to make a single electron-at-a-time source.

Then I went to this question: are there any basic particles that do not have a charge associated with them? Up comes a neutron, but that brings up that a neutron will disintegrate into an electron and a proton in a very short while when separated from an atom.

Considering that might there be some sort of charge field around a neutron that is not normally detectable?

Could any of the above be involved in slit deflection/interference of particles?

Then came up the significance of the above thoughts on inter-atom binding forces.

The places a wandering mind will go. Chuckle. (as in LOL)

I will have to ask for some good sources from the guys here for further research on these subjects.

DC

P.S. As to your comment on transferring power; doesn't it require energy and therefore transfer of power to shift an electron from one atom's orbit to the other's? If those shifts are organized into one "direction" then the power would be transferred in that direction.

I can envision some similarity to the thermal functioning of the conductor atomic lattice but, as always, I am going to have to do more research on the details of that too.

 

[Per Oni]

The places a wandering mind will go. Chuckle. (as in LOL)

Yeah that’s true. But that’s not the place where mine goes. But hey fortunately were all different. However I stick to “normal” electrons for conduction. That’s no issue for me.

 

[Per Oni]

P.S. As to your comment on transferring power; doesn't it require energy and therefore transfer of power to shift an electron from one atom's orbit to the other's? If those shifts are organized into one "direction" then the power would be transferred in that direction.

Yes that is correct, but that applies to one electron locally. The question I’m asking is: is this electron being pushed in a hydraulic way? My answer is: no they are transported in a way similar as raindrops in a gravitational field.

 

[DarioC]

No need for hydraulic, just electrostatic.

There is both push and pull. In a DC circuit the excessive number of electrons on the negative plate are all pushing against each other's static fields. The positive plate has a massive shortage of electrons and the unbalanced protons in the atoms will attract any available (as from a conductor) electrons. The repulsion and attraction (to ions) of the electric fields of each electron do it all.

The pulses that we see along a conductor(such as on initial connection) are just a localized area where the electrons are compressed together that moves along a conductor at approximately V=c.

DC

.

 

[watcher]

No need for hydraulic, just electrostatic.

There is both push and pull. In a DC circuit the excessive number of electrons on the negative plate are all pushing against each other's static fields. The positive plate has a massive shortage of electrons and the unbalanced protons in the atoms will attract any available (as from a conductor) electrons. The repulsion and attraction (to ions) of the electric fields of each electron do it all.

The pulses that we see along a conductor(such as on initial connection) are just a localized area where the electrons are compressed together that moves along a conductor at approximately V=c.

DC

.

yes. the free electron model

 

[Per Oni]

Am going away for a couple of days and therefore can't reply with any kind of proper answer, not ignoring you.

 

[Per Oni]

No need for hydraulic, just electrostatic.

There is both push and pull. In a DC circuit the excessive number of electrons on the negative plate are all pushing against each other's static fields. The positive plate has a massive shortage of electrons and the unbalanced protons in the atoms will attract any available (as from a conductor) electrons. The repulsion and attraction (to ions) of the electric fields of each electron do it all.

The pulses that we see along a conductor(such as on initial connection) are just a localized area where the electrons are compressed together that moves along a conductor at approximately V=c.

DC

.

@ DarioC, in the hope you’r still about: Even though you call it electrostatic, when you say there’s both push and pull you are still referring to a hydraulic / mechanical system. Mechanical systems push and pull direct on adjacent neighbours. The problem with this kind of power transport are the huge forces which are involved.

The way I see it is different in that an electric field does the pushing and pulling on each charge.

Now you’r probably going to say: the power supply provides the electrical field. Which is true but an electrical field is conservative and therefore needs to be replenished all the time. So in my case, we must therefore have a traveling electrical field which has to carry the power to a far way load. This must be the case for dc as well as ac.

I hope I do make some sort of sense.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I worry that people don't seem to be drawing a distinction between Field and Potential. It is Potential that is important to consider here. The field varies around the circuit, according to the rate of power dissipation in each part so it would be meaningless to say you have 230V across your supply wires and they are separated by 0.01m so the field is 23000V/m. The potential is 230V and that's what counts.

Any arm waving explanation still needs to keep both feet on the ground of basic theory if it is to work.

 

[DarioC]

Oni,
Do you propose that there is some electric "field" that is somehow not the same as the charges surrounding the individual electrons, and that it travels through the conductor independent of what the electrons are doing? Do I have that correct?

Do you mean there is a charge, field, or potential in an electric circuit that is not caused by the electrons in the conducting material?

DC

EDIT: Ah, I just had a flash of possible comprehension. Are you thinking of a electric field like that associated with a electromagnetic wave moving through "space"?

To my knowledge there is no (electric) field, charge, or potential, independent of that surrounding electrons, present or required in conductive material for the functioning of a basic D.C circuit.

.

 

[Per Oni]

Oni,
Do you propose that there is some electric "field" that is somehow not the same as the charges surrounding the individual electrons, and that it travels through the conductor independent of what the electrons are doing? Do I have that correct?

Do you mean there is a charge, field, or potential in an electric circuit that is not caused by the electrons in the conducting material?.

No this electrical field cannot be seen as independent of the free charges, ie in your example the electrons. That condition must be true as can be seen when we insert (say) a capacitor in the circuit.

EDIT: Ah, I just had a flash of possible comprehension. Are you thinking of a electric field like that associated with a electromagnetic wave moving through "space"?

To my knowledge there is no (electric) field, charge, potential, or current, independent of that surrounding electrons, present in conductive material.

To these questions: I cannot take you any further, although you can google the Poynting vector. Professor Feynman once famously said: "Intuition would seem to tell us that the electrons get their energy from being pushed along the wire……but theory says that the electrons are really being pushed by an electric field, which has come from charges very far away….."

 

[DarioC]

Gee, I thought that was exactly what I was saying. Except that you seem to think there is some EXTRA field and I am saying that the only "fields" there are the ones associated with the electrons themselves. That is all it takes. Again I am talking about a D.C. Circuit.

Feynman is exactly right, of course, but the energy is propagated by the fields of the charges on the electrons themselves, not some extra other "field." The "far away" charge is the massive collection of electrons on the negative plate of the battery.

When you go to other circuits, using varying magnetic fields, as in a generator, this situation is no longer true.

 

[Pythagorean]

Yup, even in a capacitor, the fields come from charges built up on the plates.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Yes that is correct, but that applies to one electron locally. The question I’m asking is: is this electron being pushed in a hydraulic way? My answer is: no they are transported in a way similar as raindrops in a gravitational field.

Remember that, if you want to visualise it this way, it is also being 'Pulled' at the other end of the circuit. At the same time, the positive ion cores of the metal are being pushed and pulled the other way (although they don't move) so the net 'force' on the conductor is zero.

I have a thought experiment in which a shallow tray of mercury has a voltage applied between two opposite sides. Although probably not measurable, the atoms (minus an electron) should move slightly to the negative side, causing the liquid surface to be tilted slightly, whilst electrons move steadily to the positive side.

 

[DarioC]

How interesting SC that I was just now at the library reading a Scientific American article on a new experiment using dual interferometers to see if there is a digital nature to space at the Planck size. The experimenters judge the variations will take place at MHz rates so they will be able to discern them from background low frequency shaking.

Wonder if an interferometer could be used on one end of your tray to see if the level of the mercury goes down when the voltage is applied? That doesn't even sound like an expensive experimental setup? Ah, same problem though with "geologic" shaking.

DC

 

[sophiecentaur]

Interferometry is good at spotting small displacements so I guess it would work.
The force on the mercury would be small as the field would be small. I haven't though of the details but a trough of mercury (resistivity about 10^-6) 100mm long by 10mm wide by 1mm deep would have a resistance of 0.1Ω. With 10A passing, there would be a 1V drop across it - giving an E field of 10V/m. So there would be two forces acting - mg downwards and qE sideways. Where q would be some value of effective positive charge, distributed amongst the mercury and m would be the mass of the mercury. I'm not sure what value of q would apply here but the two forces should give you an idea of the relative gravitational and electric forces - hence the slope of the liquid. Perhaps you could treat each atom separately? I started a fag-packet calculation but I got number overload and I have jobs to do!
Perhaps this needs a new thread. - will do when the mood takes me.

 

[Per Oni]

SC, the forces you are talking about are very real, and are not unlike the ones you will find in discharge tubes. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_glow_discharge#Basic_operating_mechanism
In that article you can see separation of +ve ionic clouds attracted to the negative electrode.

If you come round to doing your mercury experiment, you must also take in account the pinching effect of the magnetic field due to the current. Unfortunately no experiment is ever simple! See:
http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/Longitudinal/node3.html
This is part of a bigger article full of interesting stuff about conduction forces.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Oh I remember the pinch effect. I went to the Culham labs in the mid 60s and they were containing plasma that way. They had a MegaFarad capacitor bank, I seem to remember - and none of your low voltage 'supercapacitors' in those days. This was a whole room full of great cylindrical jobs.
Re your link: at least all the mercury would be liquid!
!