What is the strength of the strong force?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the strength of the strong force between protons and neutrons at very short distances, specifically in the femtometer range. Participants explore various aspects of nuclear forces, including potential energy, binding energy, and calculations of force, while addressing the complexities involved in measuring these interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks for the strength of the strong force in Newtons between a proton and neutron at distances of 1fm to 3fm.
  • Another participant explains that the nuclear force is better described by a potential rather than a direct force and mentions the importance of particle spin states in determining the potential well depth.
  • A participant claims to have calculated the force between a proton and neutron at 1fm to be 9998 Newtons and questions whether this is in the triplet or singlet state.
  • Another participant suggests focusing on binding energy rather than force, referencing the mass defect concept and its relation to nuclear binding energy.
  • There are multiple claims regarding calculated forces at different distances, with one participant stating a force of 2499 Newtons at 2fm and another suggesting a force of 1.111 times 10^-12 N at 3fm.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the formulas being used, with one stating that the strong force cannot be generalized as being 10^38 times stronger than gravity.
  • There are requests for participants to share their formulas for verification, indicating a desire for clarity and validation of claims made.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the calculations of the strong force, with no consensus on the validity of the formulas presented. There is also disagreement regarding the comparison of the strong force to gravity, with some participants challenging the claims made about relative strengths.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various models and concepts, such as potential wells, binding energy, and particle spin states, but do not resolve the complexities or assumptions underlying their calculations. The discussion remains focused on theoretical aspects without definitive conclusions.

HakimPhilo
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Hello everybody! :shy:
What is the strength of the strong force between, for instance, a proton and a neutron separated by a distance on the order of femtometers (1fm and 2fm and 3fm) in Newton?

Thank you in advance! ∞
 
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Hakim, It's a bit more complicated than that... in fact, it's a LOT more complicated. In the first place, although we often call it the nuclear force, in quantum mechanics it's really the potential V(r) that's important. Force as such is not used. Secondly, we don't typically measure things in Newtons! (Or weigh particles in kilograms.) Nuclear physics has its own set of units, much more convenient on a subatomic scale.

The attraction between a proton and neutron can be described roughly by a square well potential, however the size and depth depend on the orientation of the particle spins. If the spins are parallel ("triplet state") the well depth is roughly 36 MeV with a radius of 2 fm (fermis = femtometers). This is deep enough to have a bound state, the deuteron. On the other hand if the spins are antiparallel ("singlet state") the well depth is less, more like 18 MeV and radius 2.5 fm. In this case there is no bound state.

But that's only the beginning. There's a spin-orbit force present, which varies depending on the relative motion of the proton and neutron. Plus a tensor force, which is noncentral. And everything I've said relates only to isolated particles. Protons and neutrons within a nucleus are affected by forces considerably different.
 
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I done an equation that calculated the force between a proton and a neutron where the distance between their G-point is 1fm to be 9998 Newtons. Is it in the triplet state or the singlet one?
 
Calculating the Force of attraction

Hello!
I just read Mass defect concept from my physics textbook. It was written that the nucleus of an atom weighs less than that of the total of the mass of the nucleons. This means that the remaining mass gets converted into energy(by Einstein's mass-energy equivalence) which we call it as binding energy of nucleus. The difference in the mass is being used as energy that holds nucleons together. For example- Binding energy of deuteron is 2.22 MeV. So I suggest you to find Binding energy of nucleons rather than finding force of attraction between them.

For more information-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_binding_energy
 
Last edited by a moderator:
HakimPhilo said:
I done an equation that calculated the force between a proton and a neutron where the distance between their G-point is 1fm to be 9998 Newtons. Is it in the triplet state or the singlet one?
How did you calculate that? With the model of pion exchanges?

@DevendraC: Why do you use a different font and font size? That is harder to read.
 
@mfb: Nope, I used my own equation... And I want to know if it is correct without having to write it for some reasons... And using 2fm it gives me: 2499 Newtons.

Thank your for your responds. :)
 
Let me guess: for 3fm, you get about 1110 N?

That does not work. For distances larger than the diameter of the nucleons the force drops way quicker than 1/r^2.
 
No it gives me 1.111 times 10^-12 N.
 
I think you have a very strange formula.
 
  • #10
When comparing this formula with gravity it gives me exactly that the strong force is 10^38 stronger than gravity.
 
  • #11
Please show your formula and how you got it, or stop making some claims about a formula which are impossible to check.

Note that the strong force is not 1038 times stronger than gravity in general.
 
  • #12
Okay.
 

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