What is the Ultimate Meaninglessness of Life?

[alexsok]

Hell i went from being depressed to being normal to being depressed, but one thing keeps bugging me... whatever i do, there is no answer to that question! So? Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, Taoism, Hedonism, anything you offer, does it have an everlasting meaning?

We are born into an unfathomable existence, on a tiny patch of space called Earth that is itself a speck of dust in the galaxy that is a speck of dust in the infinite universe, and not only that, but during your entire lifetspan, you will die on an even smaller patch of space on THAT Earth.

Anyone else thinks human being are just limited and death is "unfair"? Religious people, what's the point of "Heaven", "Hell" or "Brahman" or any other mind-concoctions? That's the one thing I never really got. I don't want to be reincarnated or reunite with any Brahman, i don't want to live a blissful existence that is in itself meaningless (isn't it bound to get repetitive as well or the catch-22 is that i'll experience incessant eternal orgasms and ergo will not have time to consider the meaninglessness of it all?), I have no desire to commit to a life of hedonism here cause that is boring as well.

So... since life is an inexplicable mystery and a torture chamber, how cruel is that we are alive? The more I think of it, the more I realize that religion does not bring meaning to life but rather, further consolidates the nihilistic meaninglessness of it all!, did it ever happen, that a guy hates Atheism as much as he hates Religion, but reaches that conclusion since in the face of one-sideness and daily monotony of life, there is nothing better to do?

In short terms, how is it possible for someone like me (don't know if there are any others) to live if two of the biggest alternatives in the world (Atheism, Theism and everything inbetween) are not satisfactory?

So if I don't belong to any category, then what's the point of waking up every morning? From that point on, it seems as suicide is the best way to cork out your brain, no responsibility, no depression, no aspirations, worries or anything else, isn't that the perfect drug?

How vain it all is. Every human category. Love, Sex, Art, etc etc. People getting fatter, people getting leaner, hunks & jocks vs pickup artists and the usual joes..., movies, learning... working... why? who asked that "something" to bring me and countless others who wondered about the same question to to that existence? Why did I have to be coaxed? Why not just give it all to us at the outset, at least in that case the meaninglessness could be worth something until you're dead? Why does medicine exist, why do our bodies fail, why is there anything at all, and that magical "anything" created a world that is so far away from being "fun"? Am I ever going to get the answer to that or should I, as had been advised here countless times, "wizen up" and self-indulge in the mystery? but what would be the point of that?

Guys, do u understand what I'm trying to say here? Without any appeal to ignorance or pity, why is it that no matter how good you try to think the world is, how optimistic everything is and how purposeful the world is, how everything is going according to plan, how you're going to end up being successful, with a wonderful career and a great family, how "good" people are and how much happiness you wish everyone would be showered with - the thoughts you try to nail into your brain, the mental masturbation of having to wake up everyday to the same "existence" seem like such an unenticing prospect? (no matter how well-of and high-rolling you are)

Is suicide really the only option here? Why are the suicide rates so high pretty much in every developed country (Russia, Japan, US, etc)if everyone else gets such an immense kick out of life?

p.s
oh and btw, depression has nothing to do with me writing this post right now. that has been my opinion for a long time, but I've desperately grappled with myself trying to conceal it. Can't do that anymore. Could we please discuss this issue refraining from medical advices or any of the other trite banalities that I've already googled the net for? Philosophically speaking, what's the other emergency exists other than Religion or lack of it?:no:

 

[Omega_6]

I understand exactly how you feel. The first time I heard (when I was very young) that heaven was a place of eternal bliss, I said that heaven would be boring then (this is what my mother told me that I said, I was only 5, and I don't really remember). Basically, if God does exist, and heaven as well, then I don't know if I would even want to go there!

One of the only reasons people believe in a God is so that they can accept their deaths and live life normally (not all, but most). I can't believe in a God because it "makes me feel better". Reality is reality, regardless of what I believe.

As for suicide being the only option...I have yet to wake up one morning being glad that I'm going to die sometime in the future, not once. I do feel somehow "cheated" that I am allowed to live for a while and then must die against my will. As for why I want to wake up every morning, I don't really know. I wake up and go out because that's what I feel like doing.

"Developed" countries try to become so efficient that many people simply lead such dull and boring lives and they see no way out. Being efficient works mathematically, but human beings are not made to be super efficient. This is the job of the unconscious machines that we build (please no arguments about consciousness and machines and the fact that we are machines).

What is the point of indulging in the mystery of life? It won't change what is going to happen to you nor give your life any meaning. As for life being what you make of it...does it really matter what I make of it? If I become the greatest and most famous person to ever live, what will that change for me?

I put my faith in science because I see no other place to put it. Perhaps one day death won't be an issue any more, maybe it will be looked upon as an eradicated disease. What if we could resurrect the dead ourselves? Given enough time, who knows what might happen. This won't give your life any meaning, but you will at least have a choice about what happens to you. (I realize that this may be impossible, but no one honestly knows for sure, I'm not trying to start an argument about immortality and why it won't work.)

You certainly don't need any medication or help, you simply have a cynical outlook on life, as do I. You are a realist. Don't let others tell you that they know the truth and you don't. Nobody on Earth knows any more about life than you do, you must either figure out your purpose in life or accept that you have no purpose. I live because it is something to do, I either can live or die, and while it may not really matter, I have made my choice. There is no reason to shorten your already short life. Just play it out and see what happens.

 

[alexsok]

Thx for the response Omega-6, you really managed to perk me up! I agree with you completely, on every point.

One question though... the thing about immortality... even if someday we will achieve this (though I personally doubt that, but as you said, that is for another topic), will this mean that our bodies will live forever even if we plan to eradicate them? Isn't it the exact opposite, that if we reach that plateau, people will start tearing their hair out and exit life by their own volition? At least that's what I read in some book, it said that once we reach utopia, where there is no more diseases and life can be prolonged for thousands of years, people will get so bored that they will surely decide to end their lives?

I don't see immortality giving me any more meaning than mortality does (as you said), but then again, what does then? Isn't there anything at all in the world that can give it any semblance of meaning?

 

[waht]

Interesting questions you have posed, I have been asking for as long as I can remember. A really short answer would be "the pursuit of happiness" is the meaning of life. But still what's the point of that either?

From an animalistic point of view, we should be running naked across the savannah hunting saber tooth tigers. No questions asked. Then something happened, and humans started to be more intelligent.

Humans are the only species that are sensitive to the spiritual realm.

Is this a product of evolution?

or a bi-product of intelligence?

Every society on Earth has independently develeoped a system of religion, which is artificial but the belief in a higher power is not.

Some people misunderstand the belief in God. They think that people are helpless need to believe in God. But that is not entirely ture. True belief in God is spawned by acknowledging the great life you have and the awesomeness of the universe.

If our evolution has reached a point where your spirit can transcend space and time after you die, that would be great. But if you cease to exist, that would be kind of sad. Therefore for the shortest time you are here on earth, live out your live as best as you can. Because you will be gone forever, ad infinitum. What difference will any of your actions make, as compared to the universe.

I find my meaning of life through the pursuit of knowledge. And if I really cease to exit when I die, so be it. I'll die knowing I have witnessed the wonders of the universe and I'll die believing in God.

I will tell you this, if you really knew all the answers to the ultimate questions, what would be the point of that?

 

[octelcogopod]

You are the ultimate god.
You have full responsibility and power over your own thoughts and emotions.
Heck it can even be said that we are all individual gods of our own universes, it's only a matter of perspective.

Thus it is my opinion that you need to stop putting the blame elsewhere.
You are pushing all responsibility away from yourself, onto something which has no consciousness, namely the universe.
You are pushing all power that you once had, onto something that will never change; the universe.

Stop giving away responsibility and power, stop making up excuses, and create your own destiny in life, both before and after death.

 

[Omega_6]

Interesting questions you have posed, I have been asking for as long as I can remember. A really short answer would be "the pursuit of happiness" is the meaning of life. But still what's the point of that either?

When you look at the most likely scenario of your existence, then there really is no point in the pursuit of happiness, at the deepest level.

From an animalistic point of view, we should be running naked across the savannah hunting saber tooth tigers. No questions asked. Then something happened, and humans started to be more intelligent.

Humans are the only species that are sensitive to the spiritual realm.

Is this a product of evolution?

or a bi-product of intelligence?

Every society on Earth has independently develeoped a system of religion, which is artificial but the belief in a higher power is not.

Some people misunderstand the belief in God. They think that people are helpless need to believe in God. But that is not entirely ture. True belief in God is spawned by acknowledging the great life you have and the awesomeness of the universe.

This "sensitivity" to the spiritual realm is most likely a product of evolution and intelligence, since intelligence is a product of evolution. Like we have been discussing, it really makes no difference if you live or die, but if all humans committed suicide, then evolution of the species will have failed. A belief in a God and a destiny is the perfect (and simple) solution to stop humans from realizing how meaningless their existence is (Does this not make sense?). I am not saying that only weaklings believe in God, but am I wrong to say that the aformentioned reason I gave for a belief in God applies to some people? I don't think so, and at the deepest level, it may be the reason for many. The great life we have...if it was as great as you say it is then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I call myself agnostic, I acknowledge that I can not know for sure whether or not there is a god (some kind of god at least, not necessarily the christian god). Do you acknowledge the fact that the universe may very well exist without the existence of a God? It is certainly a possibility, and while not too much is known about the universe, there is no empirical evidence for the existence of a god other than complexity.

If our evolution has reached a point where your spirit can transcend space and time after you die, that would be great. But if you cease to exist, that would be kind of sad. Therefore for the shortest time you are here on earth, live out your live as best as you can. Because you will be gone forever, ad infinitum. What difference will any of your actions make, as compared to the universe.

I find my meaning of life through the pursuit of knowledge. And if I really cease to exit when I die, so be it. I'll die knowing I have witnessed the wonders of the universe and I'll die believing in God.

I will tell you this, if you really knew all the answers to the ultimate questions, what would be the point of that?

I find joy in the pursuit of knowledge, but it is far from giving my life any real meaning. I want to search for the ultimate answers, but is it fair to only give me 80 years to do it? When you die believing in God, it will make no difference. In all likelyhood, death will be the sad event you speak of.

You are the ultimate god.
You have full responsibility and power over your own thoughts and emotions.
Heck it can even be said that we are all individual gods of our own universes, it's only a matter of perspective.

Thus it is my opinion that you need to stop putting the blame elsewhere.
You are pushing all responsibility away from yourself, onto something which has no consciousness, namely the universe.
You are pushing all power that you once had, onto something that will never change; the universe.

Stop giving away responsibility and power, stop making up excuses, and create your own destiny in life, both before and after death.

...and when I die and my consciousness fades away, I will no longer be able to accept responsibility or power. What kind of god am I that in fact I have no power over my ultimate destiny? How can I push responsibility that I don't have away from myself? How can I be accused of blaming something else for my power when I have none?

 

[octelcogopod]

A god cannot have control over his own destiny, it's logically impossible, he will always be a "slave to the system."

I'm talking about being a god of your own life.

If others can be happy, so can you.
It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[waht]

"there is no empirical evidence for the existence of a god other than complexity."

Indeed, just like there is no evidence of that the "real meaning" that you speak of can ever be found or understood.

You seek something that may never have an answer. The universe may not care.

So the believing in God is no different.

 

[Omega_6]

A god cannot have control over his own destiny, it's logically impossible, he will always be a "slave to the system."

I'm talking about being a god of your own life.

If others can be happy, so can you.
It's all a matter of perspective.

Even though I am the god of my life, that still does not change anything. It is just another way of saying I control my life, what is your point? There are of course things that I can do that will make me happy, but there are different kinds of "happiness," and nothing I do can give me that special kind of happiness. The fact that others can be happy has no bearing on whether or not I can be happy. My perspective is different (obviously) from theirs. My perspective is the one which determines whether or not I will be happy. Changing my perspective will only give me a false sense of happiness, while it has no effect on reality. This certainly does not give any meaning to my life.

"there is no empirical evidence for the existence of a god other than complexity."

Indeed, just like there is no evidence of that the "real meaning" that you speak of can ever be found or understood.

You seek something that may never have an answer. The universe may not care.

So the believing in God is no different.

I don't hope to find "real meaning," because I know that it doesn't exist. I must have misled you in my earlier post(s)...but I thought that I said that life was meaningless. I would certainly, however, like to have more of a say in things such as death. Please don't get me wrong, you have a right to believe in whatever you want.

 

[waht]

I don't hope to find "real meaning," because I know that it doesn't exist. I must have misled you in my earlier post(s)...but I thought that I said that life was meaningless. I would certainly, however, like to have more of a say in things such as death. Please don't get me wrong, you have a right to believe in whatever you want.

No biggy, I read fast.

Life can be meaningless to the core. You have little control over your life, you don't know when an earthquake will happen, or get ran over by a car, or wiped out by an asteroid impact.

What humans aspire, at least at an unconcoiuss level is to increase one's degrees of freedom. We have come a long way since caveman times, so our lives should have more meaning. When we finally conquer space, and colinize other planets, then we have acquired another degree of freedom. Suddenly asteroid impacts won't seem that scary.

 

[loseyourname]

You know, this is certainly a worthwhile question, but it gets asked here every month or so.

 

[octelcogopod]

Even though I am the god of my life, that still does not change anything. It is just another way of saying I control my life, what is your point? There are of course things that I can do that will make me happy, but there are different kinds of "happiness," and nothing I do can give me that special kind of happiness.

My point is that life is what you make it. The universe is neutral, it does not know what "purpose" or "meaning" is about.
Thus all those negative emotions you have come from within, not from the situation you are in.
You try to put the blame on the universe, calling it a prison and other things, when in reality you are free to do whatever you want, you are free to do whatever your body and mind is capable of doing, and that's all you need.
If you are looking for something else, if you are saying that you have wishes that the universe cannot fulfill, then I suggest you look harder, or die trying.

The fact that others can be happy has no bearing on whether or not I can be happy. My perspective is different (obviously) from theirs. My perspective is the one which determines whether or not I will be happy. Changing my perspective will only give me a false sense of happiness, while it has no effect on reality. This certainly does not give any meaning to my life.

Are you sure about that?
If you are experiencing some sort of "false happiness" then you're not doing the right thing, and you're not experiencing happiness.
If you are however experiencing happiness then by default, you will not question it, otherwise it wouldn't be happiness.

If as I said above you are looking to fulfill something which cannot physically nor mentally be fulfilled, then we have come to a crossroad.

Either
1. The very possibility that you had this emotion says something bigger about the universe or
2. We are all just physical matter wobbling around in space, and nothing of what we think or feel has any real bearing on the physical world.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Find what matters to you and make a leap of faith that it really matters. It reacquires a leap of faith in either case - to believe that life has meaning or not - so why not use Pascal's logic to make the choice? Even if life has no meaning, if you choose to believe that it does, you still enjoy the luxury of never knowing that you were wrong.

I think what really gets people stuck is not the meaning of life or lack thereof, rather it is the inability to accept that we can't know. Some or most of us need to make a choice as to what to believe.

 

[Tyris]

If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself.

(Thank you, Sid Mier.)[/color]

 

[alexsok]

The real issue is that we can't be Gods, mainly due to the fact that we can't influence our surroundings beyond the things we do on Earth (and even then, not all of us have that kind of influence). No matter what we do, the existence will still rear it's ugly head: every morning/night the same picture, same sky, clouds, stars, cosmos, you name it. That's something I see no solution for.

In terms of being successful here on Earth, sure, it would be wise to think of everything in positive terms, to follow your dreams and to consider yourself a God for yourself.

But that is the real subtlety here: if the universe doesn't care, then how is it a worthy life we live? no matter what we do, we are going to die. If a cure is found for Death (if such a thing is possible), then that would only exacerbate the problem because I would personally be unable to enjoy this daily repetitiveness and how exactly would immortality really be immortality if everyone in possession of arms would be able to kill himself? Sure, no physical death, but what about illnesses and about the aforementioned option? There are too many gaping holes to reach a reasonable conclusion

And then again... even then, the Universe wouldn't care

Someone said here, that because we are sentient being, we are so much more meaningful than the universe is as a whole... there is a modicum of truth in that as well, but only insofar as we're alive.

 

[Omega_6]

My point is that life is what you make it. The universe is neutral, it does not know what "purpose" or "meaning" is about.
Thus all those negative emotions you have come from within, not from the situation you are in.

My negative emotions do come from the situation I am in. The one thing that I am happy about is being alive. What makes me unhappy is that I won't always be alive. I may be alive for 80 or so years, but I won't be alive for all the rest of the time. I realize that "I" won't "know" that I'm dead, but that's not the point. This point is that life is what it is, not what I make of it. Maybe for you that is not the case, but for me it is. I can't be wrong about what makes me happy and what life means to me (nothing).

You try to put the blame on the universe, calling it a prison and other things, when in reality you are free to do whatever you want, you are free to do whatever your body and mind is capable of doing, and that's all you need.

I don't think of the universe as my prison, I like the universe. I understand that I'm free to do what I want, and of course that is all I need, that is all I'm going to get. However, I can't be completely happy with the situation I am in right now, unless I change it to something I like. But for now, I am not completely happy, and will never be happy with this current situation.

If you are looking for something else, if you are saying that you have wishes that the universe cannot fulfill, then I suggest you look harder, or die trying.

Exactly what I will do. Although I don't think that my wishes are impossible to fulfill.

Are you sure about that?
If you are experiencing some sort of "false happiness" then you're not doing the right thing, and you're not experiencing happiness.
If you are however experiencing happiness then by default, you will not question it, otherwise it wouldn't be happiness.

If as I said above you are looking to fulfill something which cannot physically nor mentally be fulfilled, then we have come to a crossroad.

Either
1. The very possibility that you had this emotion says something bigger about the universe or
2. We are all just physical matter wobbling around in space, and nothing of what we think or feel has any real bearing on the physical world.

Its not what I do that determines whether I'm happy or not. I have control over what I do. The things that I can't control are the things that make me unhappy. I don't want control over everything, but there are certainly things that I see as unfair. I don't think that the universe is trying to be unfair (I understand that it is "neutral"), but my current situation is definitely unfair in my opinion (by chance, of course). I'm not asking for some kind of heaven here, as I said earlier, I don't want that at all. I am also not asking for something that is impossible to fulfill...what do you think I want?

 

[Rade]

I like the answer of Joseph Campbell--the point (meaning) of human life is to experience the rapture of being alive.

 

[Parabox]

One shouldn't live for a purpose, but to live life because they're able and fortunate to do so

just take comfort in the fact you exist at all, and you're able to ponder the fact

 

[toogood]

The point of life is not to die.

 

[octelcogopod]

Yeah.. Listen to some music that really draws you in, have sex with someone, view a beautiful sunset, look at the skies and ponder, and then be happy that you are able to do those things at all.

Being alive rocks.

 

[wolram]

You should think like me and not worry about things, and enjoy what you have, my life seems to stumble from one catastrophe to another, but as long as i can experience the world i do not care, and when i snuff it i will not know about it so what is the problem Oh and if there is an after life that will be a bonus, but i would rather think recycling/rebirth

 

[loseyourname]

I like the answer of Joseph Campbell--the point (meaning) of human life is to experience the rapture of being alive.

I loved that guy. He was always smiling and talking about following your bliss. If being like that isn't the point of life, I don't know what is.

 

[quantumcarl]

I loved that guy. He was always smiling and talking about following your bliss. If being like that isn't the point of life, I don't know what is.

There may be a more practical point to life (the biological phenomenon).

The evolution of life has brought us to a point where we are able to communicate with one another. Basically we are setting up a large-scale neural network that forms a skim-coat over the planet earth.

This would, on the scale of the earth, make each person the equivalent of a neuron and the total sum of the Earth's human population would make the equivalent of a brain. A global brain.

http://www.peterussell.com/GB/globalbrain.html

However, when you look at our planet and its global brain (made up of humans representing a neuron per individual) and you look at the scale of the solar system, the galaxy and the scale of galactic clusters and super clusters... then imagine each of the planets that are developing or have developed a similar "global brain". This is when you could construe each of these planets to be isolated neurons or planetary neurons that may or may not have developed enough to communicate with other neuron-like planets.

All of this is to illustrate my point that perhaps it is in the natural way of the universe to develop biological activity which, by nature, evolves sophisticated communicative desires and methods... which, in turn, provide a Universal Brain for the otherwise "untalkative" universe.

Just a hunch to do with the question.

My definition of "life" is biological activity.
It looks as though the word life is being defined as "living" or "lifestyle" in this thread.

 

[loseyourname]

Well yeah, I took the question to be asking what the point of living is. The point of life itself seems to be pretty straightforwardly to create more life.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Well yeah, I took the question to be asking what the point of living is. The point of life itself seems to be pretty straightforwardly to create more life.

It's certainly the point of life at, say, the species level to perpetuate itself, but the point of life at the organism level is just to survive another day. It's only human beings who even contemplate suicide.

 

[quantumcarl]

It's certainly the point of life at, say, the species level to perpetuate itself, but the point of life at the organism level is just to survive another day. It's only human beings who even contemplate suicide.

The P52 gene of every cell is the suicide gene and regulates if a cell will remain alive or not... that is until a mutation within the cell's nucleus performs a function of turning it off... then unregulated, asexual reproduction will occur (cancer). So, I'd say that suicide is a method of overall survival built into the most basic components of an organism, in a manner of speaking...

 

[loseyourname]

It's certainly the point of life at, say, the species level to perpetuate itself, but the point of life at the organism level is just to survive another day. It's only human beings who even contemplate suicide.

I take the point of staying alive another day to be to stay alive long enough to reproduce. Many animals will willingly starve to death or even let their young feed off of them. There actually is at least one example - the species name of which I cannot think of now - of an animal that shows signs of depression after reproducing and just goes off and dies. Animals like the mantis die while in the very act of procreation.

 

[quantumcarl]

I take the point of staying alive another day to be to stay alive long enough to reproduce. Many animals will willingly starve to death or even let their young feed off of them. There actually is at least one example - the species name of which I cannot think of now - of an animal that shows signs of depression after reproducing and just goes off and dies. Animals like the mantis die while in the very act of procreation.

Every season the leaves die on the trees. Is it simply because the sun is lower in the sky and the ground is colder and of less nourishment? Or do the leaves sacrifice themselves to help insulate and fertilize the roots of the tree through winter?

Shelley's "Ode to the West Wind":

O wild West Wind, thou breath of Autumn's being,
Thou, from whose unseen presence the leaves dead
Are driven, like ghosts from an enchanter fleeing...

Our projections on the nature of nature are our feable attempts to pidgeon-hole every event as having something to do with the way we think things "really" are.

 

[GreenApple]

i like your good point

Hell i went from being depressed to being normal to being depressed, but one thing keeps bugging me... whatever i do, there is no answer to that question! So? Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, Taoism, Hedonism, anything you offer, does it have an everlasting meaning?

We are born into an unfathomable existence, on a tiny patch of space called Earth that is itself a speck of dust in the galaxy that is a speck of dust in the infinite universe, and not only that, but during your entire lifetspan, you will die on an even smaller patch of space on THAT Earth.

Anyone else thinks human being are just limited and death is "unfair"? Religious people, what's the point of "Heaven", "Hell" or "Brahman" or any other mind-concoctions? That's the one thing I never really got. I don't want to be reincarnated or reunite with any Brahman, i don't want to live a blissful existence that is in itself meaningless (isn't it bound to get repetitive as well or the catch-22 is that i'll experience incessant eternal orgasms and ergo will not have time to consider the meaninglessness of it all?), I have no desire to commit to a life of hedonism here cause that is boring as well.

So... since life is an inexplicable mystery and a torture chamber, how cruel is that we are alive? The more I think of it, the more I realize that religion does not bring meaning to life but rather, further consolidates the nihilistic meaninglessness of it all!, did it ever happen, that a guy hates Atheism as much as he hates Religion, but reaches that conclusion since in the face of one-sideness and daily monotony of life, there is nothing better to do?

In short terms, how is it possible for someone like me (don't know if there are any others) to live if two of the biggest alternatives in the world (Atheism, Theism and everything inbetween) are not satisfactory?

So if I don't belong to any category, then what's the point of waking up every morning? From that point on, it seems as suicide is the best way to cork out your brain, no responsibility, no depression, no aspirations, worries or anything else, isn't that the perfect drug?

How vain it all is. Every human category. Love, Sex, Art, etc etc. People getting fatter, people getting leaner, hunks & jocks vs pickup artists and the usual joes..., movies, learning... working... why? who asked that "something" to bring me and countless others who wondered about the same question to to that existence? Why did I have to be coaxed? Why not just give it all to us at the outset, at least in that case the meaninglessness could be worth something until you're dead? Why does medicine exist, why do our bodies fail, why is there anything at all, and that magical "anything" created a world that is so far away from being "fun"? Am I ever going to get the answer to that or should I, as had been advised here countless times, "wizen up" and self-indulge in the mystery? but what would be the point of that?

Guys, do u understand what I'm trying to say here? Without any appeal to ignorance or pity, why is it that no matter how good you try to think the world is, how optimistic everything is and how purposeful the world is, how everything is going according to plan, how you're going to end up being successful, with a wonderful career and a great family, how "good" people are and how much happiness you wish everyone would be showered with - the thoughts you try to nail into your brain, the mental masturbation of having to wake up everyday to the same "existence" seem like such an unenticing prospect? (no matter how well-of and high-rolling you are)

Is suicide really the only option here? Why are the suicide rates so high pretty much in every developed country (Russia, Japan, US, etc)if everyone else gets such an immense kick out of life?

p.s
oh and btw, depression has nothing to do with me writing this post right now. that has been my opinion for a long time, but I've desperately grappled with myself trying to conceal it. Can't do that anymore. Could we please discuss this issue refraining from medical advices or any of the other trite banalities that I've already googled the net for? Philosophically speaking, what's the other emergency exists other than Religion or lack of it?:no:

I am so excited after reading this!You asked a real question.

Yes,you can always ask "does it make sense?" and doing this does make a sense.That is why I have not tried suicide!
Yes,the idear ofen occurs to me,especially when my mind can not think clearly because of illness,which leads me to think that our mind is but a slave of physical matters and makes me feel very very depressed,far more than the illness itself does.But I never bring this idear into action,partly because I can't get rid of the habit of living,just as animals,which make me feel kind of "self-hatred".But the main reason is that I am not sure whether one can treat "life" or "I" or "the world"or whatever you call it emotionally.Is it right to suicide only because a strong emotional feeling-depression, you side?
Even if that strong emotion is caused by a nonemotional knowledge,can one be sure that knowledge is Truth?
I sometimes am conquered by a "knowlegde" that evreything is meaningless.But the form is knowledge is questionable whereby it is interesting.There maybe other forms of knowledge which leads to another emotion.
And it is really hard to distinguish intellect from emotion.
I don't know.I only know I don't know and that's why I will not suiside

It is my favorite part of what you side is that what we are doing is but mental masturbation.That may be the true mind statement to everyone.But even if it is a true knowlege,is it that kind of knowledge which really matters and is worthy of the whole of human endeavor?
Oh,my mind is altogether confused now!Maybe I should suicide now

 

[sneez]

we assume that purpose of life is somewhere "outthere" waiting for us to be discovered. Thats is not true from the fact of 'reality' begin inside our brains.
Its seems that we are being asked what is the purpose of life, and we are the provider of the answer.

my 2 cents :shy:

 

[Drachir]

Life is its own purpose.

 

[alexsok]

Ok a follow-up question. What I fail to understand is that how come some people are in a constant state of battle with nature, sometimes winning and attaining emotional stability, happiness, lots of money, lots of women, etc etc... while others just kill themselves if they fail once (or keep on living in poverty, emotional upheaveal, distress, depression, etc). So what's the difference between these two personality types? Can you say that one was weaker than the other in the context of "meaning of life" or is it simply non-sensical?

How can you judge a bum for instance and a multi-billionaire? To the universe they are all just a ramdom composition of atoms, but out here where we live, one is judged as being "strong, composed, equianimous, successful personality" while the other is judged as a "loser".

In the end we will all be dead, perhaps that high-rolling gonzo before that street-ravaging bum, so what's the point of anyone for that matter judging anyone else? An individual is all alone out there, he either finds the meaning of life and gets on with his life (perhaps attaining happiness, perhaps not) as society wants him to or he kills himself and society bemoans his abruptly cut life.

The universe doesn't make sense to me guys, this is the problem. We are a microscopical speck of dust even in the context of the milky-way and yet still, we are competing with one another on that tiny patch called Earth for no other reason but to attain happiness that is meaningless globally.

Of course none of it (trees, buildings, governments, etc) has any meaning, it's just a category of language, but how can one live with that when the mind is desperate for an answer?

The problem is that for me the meaning of life is no simply a philosphical discussion that is entertaining to delve into now and then, but it's essential for me to land at least on the correct track so i'd know that whatever it is I'm doing here is not wasted, and since everything points to it being wasted (and if death doesn't destroy me, that still seems meaningless to me), then i see no reason to keep on living.

You see society names people who seek for the meaning of life as "lost", "psychologically deplete" and "depressed" (and society is us multiplied by any number of individuals and establishments, not some super-natural force) and even though I won't deny that I've been in any of these situations numerous times and I can alternate between them, I look at myself not as an individual but as a recycled entity for the continuation of my generation and for the perpetuation of my genes (and since the universe collapses upon itself, that wouldn't be all that perpetual now would it?) and that's insulting, no matter if I was designed that way or not. Why not just design me as someone who blindly follows the herd and never asks these nerve-rattling questions? Might seem to be foolish, but at least in that case one could attain untainted happiness at whatever he does and never inquire about anything (and since I'm inquiring, why is the universe keeping the answer to itself?)

I guess that's why they coined the "Ignorance is bliss" aphorism.

It's tough to formulate a question such as this whilst the mind is so limited and the thoughts barely graze the surface of the real thing.

 

[sleepsleep]

whats da point of life

below just my personal opinion, (~ plez ignore if it doesn't suit you :) and happy good luck)

life = mean, we (as a human) able to listen, hear, speak, move, smell, taste, and the MOST IMPORTANT is the ability to think, to reason to be logical

life on Earth is short ~ we could die anytime anyday anyhow. try closed ur eyes now and imagine you would die in the next 10 seconds.

how we know what is good and what is bad ~ i called it human nature. once our ability to think is mature (usually around age 13 or above), we would start making our own decision. what to wear, what to buy, where to go and etc.

to know the life is to know how tiny we are. there are infinity knowledge that we couldn't possible to understand. (it is like would you still eat, if you know you would get hungry later?)

the problem is, we felt "enjoy" during the process to live.
and the feeling is contradict, you only know happy unless you know what is sad. the more you know, the more you should know how tiny you are and to understand there is a power (we call it God) that governs all these systems.

the purpose of living is to return the human itself to the first nature, the day before Adam and Hawa ate the "stuff" that forbiden by God and thus being sent down on earth. (the preffered state of human by God)

life is a challenge, to tell God that we could still be obedient to God, be a good human, willing to sacrifice) athough our mind has the ability to think something bad and we would fight our way to be the "best" human on earth.

life is not easy, coz human could easily selfish, greedy, boastful, want to show off and etc..

imagine the life on Earth like paradise, no war, no hatred, everybody happy, sharing, easy going, no killing and everybody appreaciate to God.

even if one yell "what is the point of life" several thousand times, it just wouldn't work.
the greater the knowledge we got, the more deeper we could understand about the life.

why you are here, you are here for a "reason", if you analyze all the things behind you, you would know every existence have its own reason. Why u got one head, not 2, 2 hands, 1 mouth, 2 eyes, 2 ears? all these are with reasons.

why we couldn't understand the reasons, ~ it is because we haven't reach the state we are able to comprehend the reason.

the prophets are real, they exist in history and they are messengers from God.

so, what you need to do :)
purify urself, be a better person, try reach your next level of human. the more you understand urself, the more "hidden test" you would see in ur life.

a + b = c
you need to know a and b in order to know c (the point of life).

if you are selfish, you would still selfish even after you die. The death wouldn't change you automatically into a good person. you would be like that, as long as you still has the soul.
so, change the bad side of us now, before it gets more complex later after we dead.

ps: you is not you, you is human and me.

sincerely,
sleepsleep.

 

[octelcogopod]

Ok a follow-up question.

What I fail to understand is that how come some people are in a constant state of battle with nature, sometimes winning and attaining emotional stability, happiness, lots of money, lots of women, etc etc... while others just kill themselves if they fail once (or keep on living in poverty, emotional upheaveal, distress, depression, etc). So what's the difference between these two personality types?

The problem is that one is following what they believe will make them happy/give them purpose in life, and the other one feels he fails to do this.

Can you say that one was weaker than the other in the context of "meaning of life" or is it simply non-sensical?

One can say the other was weaker, depending on how the bum ended up where he did. If he had extremely bad luck, then it may not be his fault, but if he just dug himself into a hole, then it is, maybe.
It all depends on each person.

How can you judge a bum for instance and a multi-billionaire? To the universe they are all just a ramdom composition of atoms, but out here where we live, one is judged as being "strong, composed, equianimous, successful personality" while the other is judged as a "loser".

That's simply our competitive instinct combined with our emotions.
When we see someone who "fails at life" we automatically assume that he doesn't have the strength, the courage or the willpower to do anything.
And if he does, he's too dumb to do so.

In the end we will all be dead, perhaps that high-rolling gonzo before that street-ravaging bum, so what's the point of anyone for that matter judging anyone else? An individual is all alone out there, he either finds the meaning of life and gets on with his life (perhaps attaining happiness, perhaps not) as society wants him to or he kills himself and society bemoans his abruptly cut life.

Judgement isn't something which you are given prvilidge to do, it is your right as a human being and part of the whole "free will" thing.
When someone is judged, it is based on the fact that anyone can think whatever they want about whoever/whatever they want at any time, without anybody doing anything about it.

The universe doesn't make sense to me guys, this is the problem. We are a microscopical speck of dust even in the context of the milky-way and yet still, we are competing with one another on that tiny patch called Earth for no other reason but to attain happiness that is meaningless globally.

You can't really judge the universe based on a few organisms thoughts on what you call a "microscopical speck of dust."
Furthermore life doesn't have any purpose, you apply any purpose you want, your existence, and any living things existence is neutral, and random.

Of course none of it (trees, buildings, governments, etc) has any meaning, it's just a category of language, but how can one live with that when the mind is desperate for an answer?

The mind need not be desperate for an answer, once one realizes that the only answer can come from yourself.
The universe, as I said earlier, is neutral, it is neither evil nor good, it has no thought, no meaning and no purpose, the only thought, meaning and purpose exist in living beings, so in a way, you can forge the universe and its purpose into anything you want.

The problem is that for me the meaning of life is no simply a philosphical discussion that is entertaining to delve into now and then, but it's essential for me to land at least on the correct track so i'd know that whatever it is I'm doing here is not wasted, and since everything points to it being wasted (and if death doesn't destroy me, that still seems meaningless to me), then i see no reason to keep on living.

I can tell that you are depressed, and this is usually because of a disorder, sometimes a chemical in the brain can be out of balance, which is giving you these thoughts.
I suggest you get professional help, both for your own good, but also to realize that all this hopelessness is all in your mind, it doesn't need to be this way.

You see society names people who seek for the meaning of life as "lost", "psychologically deplete" and "depressed" (and society is us multiplied by any number of individuals and establishments, not some super-natural force) and even though I won't deny that I've been in any of these situations numerous times and I can alternate between them, I look at myself not as an individual but as a recycled entity for the continuation of my generation and for the perpetuation of my genes (and since the universe collapses upon itself, that wouldn't be all that perpetual now would it?) and that's insulting, no matter if I was designed that way or not. Why not just design me as someone who blindly follows the herd and never asks these nerve-rattling questions? Might seem to be foolish, but at least in that case one could attain untainted happiness at whatever he does and never inquire about anything (and since I'm inquiring, why is the universe keeping the answer to itself?)

I guess that's why they coined the "Ignorance is bliss" aphorism.

It's tough to formulate a question such as this whilst the mind is so limited and the thoughts barely graze the surface of the real thing.

That's the thing, we are blessed for being given the power to question our existence.
Ignorance is NOT bliss.
If we didn't jhave this power, we would indeed be slaves, nothing more than followers of the herd.
YOU have the power to free yourself from this mentality, YOU have the power to do what EVER you want.
Choose to use that power.

 

[alexsok]

Sometimes if you choose this power you become the opposite of what you desired - a pariah, an outcast, an alienated loner, is that what you'd suggest someone to do?

Now about the depressed thing. NO. that's the whole point I'm NOT depressed. Suicidal people usually act on a whim in a state of affect, whilst I've been like that for a long time.

As a matter of fact, there was a period in the past where I've been constantly depressed and I've been administered Prozac (or a variation of it) that I took for about an year, but then I noticed that not a whole lot had changed - it alleviated my mood swings a little bit, but I estimated the cons and prons and chose against using it (which took a stormy period of side-effects until everything went back to normal).

The point is that once again, what I originally thought was depression turned out to be just ME. That's who I am. And the fact that my mind is desperate for an answer has nothing to do with it. Yes, it seems as if the universe is completely oblivious to pain and questioning, but what if one doesn't want to accept this state of nature?

Then what you're telling me is to accept some basic truths about the universe and learn to adapt to it. Sure I can do it, but the worries will remain with me till the last breath I take on my deathbed and I will never find it satisfactory.

p.s
Also, how can one be NOT depressed in the face of one's complete annihilation is beyond me.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Yes, it seems as if the universe is completely oblivious to pain and questioning, but what if one doesn't want to accept this state of nature?

Well this dilemma is known as cognitive dissonance, and a very common response is to tell onesself a story that reduces the dissonance. You know Aesop's story of the fox and the grapes: after jumping futilely in the hot sun all afternoon to get the grapes dangling out of his reach, the fox tells himself the grapes were probably sour anyway.

This is an example of a story that DOESN'T relieve the dissonance; what kind of dummy sweats all afternoon to get sour grapes? And fails? A better story is Holy Grapes. The fox says to himself, "If such a clever fellow as I was unable to get those grapes they must have been under powerful protection! I'll just bet they were sacred to some god! What a clever fellow I truly am to break off before I profaned those grapes and called down the wrath of the god on myself!

See how it works? And people do it all unconsciously, as psychologists have demonstrated.

 

[alexsok]

selfAdjoint
Thanks m8, didn't know about that ;)

The thing is that no matter how much convincing it takes (and even if one is able to convince himself completely), nature will still remain just that... nature.. and the universe will remain in it's former state (I mean nothing had changed outside of our little planet on a cosmic scale since the universe was created) so this technique can be considered a mitigating mind-exercise.

But think about m8, what it truly means to be dissatisfied with the way the Universe operates and have absolultey no means, even with billion-years advanced technological progress to change any of this?

Even in our day and age, where billion dollars corporations are researching various means of harnessing the "dark matter" or "dark energy" of the cosmos for rocket-propulsion or other purposes, all we do is attempt to use what's already out there. No one can ever know the true nature of anything or change that nature. We can barely change the environment on our little planet (which doesn't come easily mind you) and on a cosmic scale our efforts seem pokey and wasteful... which is very sad for me which is why I created this topic.

 

[selfAdjoint]

So true. We are not really like gods and can never expect to be. I suppose that's a tough line. I wish others would post on this thread to see what the range of attitudes is to this brute fact of life.

 

[alexsok]

Yeah I wish others would also comment on this issue.

Question to you: When you say "we", do you refer to the "we" that is here and now or do you cover all possible bases as the "we" that will always populate the planet (well.. at least for another thousand of years)? In either case, if "we" can never be gods, then how can one expect a single tiny individul like me and you find a meaning to their lives if the entire mankind of today or the one that will develop eons from now is as powerless in changing the status quo?

 

[-Job-]

But think about m8, what it truly means to be dissatisfied with the way the Universe operates and have absolultey no means, even with billion-years advanced technological progress to change any of this?

Any control over perception is as good as control over the universe. As long as you can change one of them... You can walk down a road or force the Earth to slide under your feet, and they're both as good if all you want to do is get somewhere.

 

[octelcogopod]

There is one thing I think you are not understanding here.

The universe didn't PUT you in this position.
You made a CHOICE to feel this way.
You can feel and think ANYTHING, the universe has NO EVIL OR GOOD, it is only NEUTRAL.

You see what I'm saying?
You keep saying that there is some unanswered question "lingering", but that's all in your mind.
You got to free yourself, the only one who can answer that question is you.

 

[Omega_6]

There is one thing I think you are not understanding here.

The universe didn't PUT you in this position.
You made a CHOICE to feel this way.
You can feel and think ANYTHING, the universe has NO EVIL OR GOOD, it is only NEUTRAL.

You see what I'm saying?
You keep saying that there is some unanswered question "lingering", but that's all in your mind.
You got to free yourself, the only one who can answer that question is you.

I think that the fact that this thread exists proves that you can not always control how you feel. I'm pretty sure he didn't make a choice to feel bad. I obviously can think anything, but I can not feel anything at will. No one has accused the universe of being evil or good, people just don't like the situation they are in. What is so wrong with complaining about your situation? Again, what you feel does not change what is really going to happen (If you believe that there is no such thing as reality, then it is impossible to argue with you about anything, but obviously the topic creator believes that his reality exists).

The topic creator does have questions that he can not answer. Of course, he can make up his own answers, but those are not the real answers he is looking for. I personally love your outlook on life, but only to the point that it amuses me. Of course the questions are in his mind, everything we perceive we perceive through our minds. This doesn't make his questions any less real.

 

[octelcogopod]

I think that the fact that this thread exists proves that you can not always control how you feel. I'm pretty sure he didn't make a choice to feel bad. I obviously can think anything, but I can not feel anything at will. No one has accused the universe of being evil or good, people just don't like the situation they are in. What is so wrong with complaining about your situation? Again, what you feel does not change what is really going to happen (If you believe that there is no such thing as reality, then it is impossible to argue with you about anything, but obviously the topic creator believes that his reality exists).

The topic creator does have questions that he can not answer. Of course, he can make up his own answers, but those are not the real answers he is looking for. I personally love your outlook on life, but only to the point that it amuses me. Of course the questions are in his mind, everything we perceive we perceive through our minds. This doesn't make his questions any less real.

What does that even mean? "Real?"

You agree that everything is in his head, yet you say this.
Here's what I'm trying to say:
His situation is created in his mind.
The situation isn't "real", it's as real as any other outlook on life.

If every question is created in his mind, then all the answers are there too.

 

[Omega_6]

What does that even mean? "Real?"

You agree that everything is in his head, yet you say this.
Here's what I'm trying to say:
His situation is created in his mind.
The situation isn't "real", it's as real as any other outlook on life.

If every question is created in his mind, then all the answers are there too.

What I am saying is that he perceives (perceives, it doesn't mean reality actually occurs in his mind) EVERYTHING in his mind. So everything could be said to "be in his mind." So saying that his questions are only "in his mind" really doesn't make them any different than anything else. What I perceive as reality is not up to me, I perceive what happens, and I ask questions about things that I really perceive.

 

[alexsok]

octelcogopod
Here is a tricky question m8. Death. Is it in our my mind as well? Is it incorrect for me to surmise that I might be dead today, tommorow or in 50 years?

I'm scared of death, terrified of the "nothingness" and the "void", but then again, life without death repulses me to so I actively choose to repudiate religion for example because of how I feel.

You're right in that the universe is neutral but as Omega said, some things just plain happen, whether you like it or not. And compounding this with my fear of the inevitable just consolidates my "existential angst" and the feelings of hopelessness.

Man has control of his life, absolutely, in many aspects too, but he doesn't have control of what counts the most.

My position can be summed up the following way: A man is born alone without anything into an unfathomable existence and dies alone without anything and with no answers provided to the most basic (at least in theory) questions.

If I'm wrong and there is a god and afterlife, he will have much more of an explaining to do to me rathen than me to him, the thought of that kinda amuses me

 

[octelcogopod]

First to Omega:
I completely agree.

We perceive what happens, we follow reality.
But that's not my point.

My point is that you, as a conscious observer, can change your outlook on life in however way you want.
I tend to think that a positive attitude, a more or less "I don't care about this universe stuff" attitude is the best.

to alex:

I CHOOSE to not focus my efforts on that which I feel is not important.
If I can do it, so can alexsok.
But he chooses not to, for some reason or another he has aching questions, he feels a hopelessness because he does not want to die nor does he want to live forever, and this whole existence seems very random and futile.
And in the middle of this is him, just a tiny dot in an unfathomable existence.

But here's my point: *drum roll*

It doesn't NEED to matter. These questions, this existence, it doesn't NEED to matter, if you just DON'T CARE.
I realized one day, that what really matters is realizing that yes, this existence is crazy, what the HELL is this universe, why am I here, why does everyone go about their lives as if everything is ok, why doesn't anyone question where they are, who they are, why doesn't anyone DO SOMETHING?

I'll tell you why.
There's a difference between the likes of us, and the likes of them.
Only when you realize the craziness, the severity, and the gravity of the situation, will you realize the funniness, the humor and the general bizareness of it.
Only then, can you truly sit down and think "haha this is nuts, but I'm here, I have emotions, i have thoughts, so I'm just going to enjoy the ride."

 

[Omega_6]

I am just not fond of people saying that another's questions aren't even valid (ESPECIALLY when it comes to philosophy). You can hide under the illusion that you have ultimate control over your life and that you have all the answers, but eventually it is going to hit you that you don't. The only answers you have apply to unimportant matters like the answers to your test.
There are many things that we will face that we have no control over, some bigger than others. You can think what you want, but everyone is going to die, and whatever happens afterward is what really happens (whether nothing happens or something happens). Everybody lives under this fear of death, some just deny that it bothers them (or choose to forget about it), or they use a belief to make death okay. Religion and death are intertwined.
Again, everybody on this planet is on equal footing when it comes to things such as the "meaning" of life and existence as a whole. Flat out saying somebody is wrong in their beliefs or wrong in asking their questions is...wrong. If I were to believe that an invisible, undetectable leprechaun that resides in my pocket will save me from death, there really isn't anything you can do to disprove it. This is why debating religion (even some "new-age" thinking) is impossible. We can, however, discuss events such as our death and ponder how this affects our lives, and what life means if a god exists or a god doesn't exist. But saying that what someone believes life to be is wrong, and therefore nullifying their questions, isn't something that can be discussed rationally.

octelcogopod

I agree that we can choose to just live life, but what I am saying is that it still doesn't really change anything, and therefore the topic creator's questions still remain.

P.S. I don't know If I am coming off sounding angry or anything, but I can assure you that I'm not.

 

[octelcogopod]

By the way, I'm not opposing your views, or alex's views.
I'm trying to make you think in more positive ways.

I stand by my word that yes, the universe, and Earth specifically, is crazy.
People do a lot of things.
They make up religions, they follow what ever they think is important at the time.
Some people do great damage, other people do great good.
You can't really blame humanity, or humans, for doing what they do.

On some level or another, nobody has any choice in anything.
Some people are born, they grow up, they learn to develop a certain attitude and lifestyle, many people never have a choice because they can't see themselves changing, it all comes naturally to them.
So my point is that all the stupid things humanity has done since we came here on earth, is simply just.. nature and humanity figuring itself out.

We have all made mistakes, we all find things we do, that pan out to be futile or incorrect, but what can you do?

I think that instead of lingering and pondering on what has happened, one should rather focus on what one WANTS to happen.

I don't think alex is at the point where nothing matters anymore, where he has no desire left to do anything.
He said himself he wasn't, so what imo needs to happen is to focus efforts elsewhere.

I'm NOT giving medical advice here, this is part of my philosophy, be cheerful, happy, and grateful for your existence.
That is my motto.
There's really nothing I can say or do, is there?

 

[alexsok]

octelcogopod
This is a really healthy perspective on life, and one that I would want to espouse some day (i seem to recall that in my more juvenile days I used to be exactly like that. blissful and uncaring.)

But, as Omega said, the questions are there regardless of how we choose to treat the subject matter (and will stay there long after the dust settles on our tombs).

So we should come to a consensus guys, at least partially. I do agree that in most cases ignorance is bliss and living life in a laid-back and trouble-free (at least in your mind) fashion is the way to go, optimism rocks and it will surely make you less of a boring person and will get you laid more for sure and yadda yadaa yadda...

But, since this is a forum of philosophy, let us focus on dissecting every question and trying to understand it's essence and it's ramifications with the obvious presupposition that we cannot know anything or come anywhere near a final resolution.

Agreed? :)

 

[octelcogopod]

Hehe ok.
I see now where you are coming from.