Automotive What's the Point of High-Powered Cars in a World of Speed Limits?

[russ_watters]

Why have 275hp if you do not use it...

There were no options between that and 170hp. Car manufacturers can only make so many options.

This is not true engine manufacturers can tune a engine to rev up to 100mph then hit the limiter (goes off cam) quite easily.

A governor is very different from limiting engine size and carries it's own problems. Most obvious is that it is only relevant on the highway, since that is the fastest you drive.

I'm sorry for your loss, but it is causing you to react to the issue with errors in logic. There is no simple way currently to build speeding limits into cars; governors and horsepower limits can eliminate vast violations (people who drive 140), but can't do anything for everyday speeding.

There is one way to do it from the car side without a terrible amount of effort: GPS adjusted governors. If the car knows what road you are on, it can adjust the governor to that road's limit. Not without issues, but doable. The other option is of course stronger enforcement.

 

[wolram]

Go back to the op, it is about manufacturers building cars that can go over 200mph it is common sense that they are not needed on any road in the world, they are built just because they can be.
70mph is the maximum speed allowed in the UK, and it is about the same in every other country, so what is a sane limit to spec a car to? the law of the land would be 70mph but manufactures spec them way over that 120mph for a 1600cc engined car is about average. why build any thing faster it just makes no sense.

Russ your idea of gps tracking and speed limiting is a good one, big brother yes but who should care.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Go back to the op, it is about manufacturers building cars that can go over 200mph it is common sense that they are not needed on any road in the world, they are built just because they can be.

And you got the answer. Real life top trumps.

Why do watch makers make watches that cost £15000? They don't tell the time any better than a £5 Casio. Why do designer clothes cost hundreds when a burlap sack will keep the cold out just as well. By the extension you can argue that any luxury good is an utter waste of time and effort, and 'overspecced'.

You can buy a box on 4 wheels that just about does 70mph if you want. People make fire breathing V12s that pop and bang because people will buy them.

 

[wolram]

i can not remember the last time a watch or designer clothes killed some one, may be in James Bond

 

[cjl]

A 1600cccar is what you need regulated to 70mph top speed, may be with a( kick down)for emergencies.
Why have 275hp if you do not use it, may be you are planning a bank robbery

There are several places in the United States where you can quite legally go 80-85 mph (85-90 if you're willing to go 5mph over the speed limit). In addition, there are also several places where the interstate highway goes up over significant hills. For example, my 175hp Subaru Outback with a 2500cc motor is very nearly running flat out to climb the hill on I-70 in Colorado from Silverthorne to the Eisenhower tunnel, especially when fully loaded with 3 or 4 people and their stuff. The high altitude (10,000+ feet above sea level) decreases engine power available, and maintaining 60-75mph up that hill requires just about everything that car has, even though on a flat surface at low altitude it is capable of 124mph (which by your definition means that it is "overpowered" and "excessive"). In addition, there are several areas in the mountains of Colorado here where you want everything you can get to safely pass a vehicle in the short passing lanes available on our mountain roads, and in many cases, my Outback is strained to get around before the passing zone or lane ends. Having plenty of power isn't just about top speed on a flat surface, and I often wish I had the larger motor in my car (the 3600cc with 250hp), simply so I wouldn't be running it so close to its limit whenever I am in the mountains, as I suspect that isn't fantastic for its longevity.

Also, I have taken my other car (a Porsche Cayman S, with 295hp, capable of well over 170mph) to the racetrack many times to have fun and improve my driving ability and car control, and when I do so, I use every bit of its available performance for hours at a time. Why should I be unable to do this? Given that I drive it within legal limits when on public roads, why shouldn't I be able to buy a car with very high performance to use on a closed circuit?

Finally, I suspect the great majority of "speed-related" accidents still occur at less than 100mph. Very high top speeds aren't the problem - the problem is speed unsuitable for the type of road and the circumstance. I'd much rather have someone going 120mph down an empty interstate highway in Kansas than 65mph down the main street in my town, and your proposed speed limiters would do nothing to prevent that latter situation.

 

[russ_watters]

Go back to the op, it is about manufacturers building cars that can go over 200mph it is common sense that they are not needed on any road in the world, they are built just because they can be.

You still have a logical disconnect here in that you say safety is your concern, but list for the details something that is way outside the typical and results in almost no deaths. There are just way too few cars capable of 200mph for them to be a noticeable part of crash stats.

 

[cjl]

What does it take Dave, i have seen three fatal accidents in as many months, the details mean nothing to the dead, what can i do other than protest in fora like this and hope some thing rubs off on people.

And with those 3 fatal accidents, how fast were the vehicles traveling?

 

[wolram]

And with those 3 fatal accidents, how fast were the vehicles traveling?

I would be a liar if i told you x, all i can say is it was at a junction with the foss way, a roman road that seems dead straight but is not quite, all the accidents involved a car coming out of the junction and being hit by the car traveling along the foss way.the drivers coming out of the minor road did not have a chance.

 

[Smattering]

AFAIK the only country one can go above 70mph is Germany, so why are these huge engined cars sold world wide, what is the use owning a car with a v10 engine capable of 200mph when your local motorway has a 70mph top limit.

A combustion engine that does not have enough power to go beyond 70 mph, will most likely have not enough torque for decent acceleration either. Even if you limit the top speed, customers will still prefer cars that can accelerate decently.

 

[cjl]

I would be a liar if i told you x, all i can say is it was at a junction with the foss way, a roman road that seems dead straight but is not quite, all the accidents involved a car coming out of the junction and being hit by the car traveling along the foss way.the drivers coming out of the minor road did not have a chance.

OK, so you can't give an exact speed, but how about an estimate? Would you say the vehicles were traveling at greater than or less than 100mph? For reference, this is what a 100mph crash looks like:

 

[wolram]

A combustion engine that does not have enough power to go beyond 70 mph, will most likely have not enough torque for decent acceleration either. Even if you limit the top speed, customers will still prefer cars that can accelerate decently.

A 1000cc car can do 70mph if it is limited, same as 2000cc car, you can have oodles of torque, all you need is some electronics.

 

[xxChrisxx]

I would be a liar if i told you x, all i can say is it was at a junction with the foss way, a roman road that seems dead straight but is not quite, all the accidents involved a car coming out of the junction and being hit by the car traveling along the foss way.the drivers coming out of the minor road did not have a chance.

Where abouts on the Fosse?

 

[wolram]

OK, so you can't give an exact speed, but how about an estimate? Would you say the vehicles were traveling at greater than or less than 100mph? For reference, this is what a 100mph crash looks like:

Sorry i am not going to get pulled into this one, it all depends on how the driver reacted, he could have been doing 100mph but braked down to 70mph or any thing inbetween.
i can tell you that one of the cars was banana shaped.

 

[wolram]

Where abouts on the Fosse?

The Harbury lane junction.

you can see it on this map

http://www.maplandia.com/united-kingdom/england/west-midlands/warwickshire-county/harbury/

 

[cjl]

Sorry i am not going to get pulled into this one, it all depends on how the driver reacted, he could have been doing 100mph but braked down to 70mph or any thing inbetween.
i can tell you that one of the cars was banana shaped.

OK, but even if the driver was doing 100mph, your proposal wouldn't really eliminate the problem. Given that the fastest speed limits are around 85mph or so, the lowest you could reasonably set a speed limiter on a car would be about 90mph, and that would not have prevented the crashes you're talking about. How many crashes actually occur at triple digit speeds? I'd bet it's a pretty tiny percentage.

 

[cjl]

A combustion engine that does not have enough power to go beyond 70 mph, will most likely have not enough torque for decent acceleration either. Even if you limit the top speed, customers will still prefer cars that can accelerate decently.

It's not even a matter of torque - acceleration and top speed are both pretty much exclusively dependent on power, assuming a reasonable power curve and appropriate gearing. A car that is unable to exceed 70mph will also have abysmal acceleration, unless it has the aerodynamics of a parachute.

 

[xxChrisxx]

The Harbury lane junction.

They'll have been doing nowhere near 100mph. I'd be very surprised if they were breaking than NSL.

Dont ever have a side impact.

 

[wolram]

They'll have been doing nowhere near 100mph. I'd be very surprised if they were breaking than NSL.

Dont ever have a side impact.

I am no expert on accident investigation so i would have to refer to those that know better.

 

[cjl]

Assuming I'm understanding you right, it's this intersection?

I don't think 200mph cars are really the problem for accidents like that, since as Chris said, there's no way the cars were even doing 100mph through there.

 

[Smattering]

A 1000cc car can do 70mph if it is limited, same as 2000cc car, you can have oodles of torque, all you need is some electronics.

I thought your issue is that people buy bigger engines than actually needed.

 

[cjl]

I am no expert on accident investigation so i would have to refer to those that know better.

Then why are you trying to propose a solution, if you don't even know what caused the accidents in the first place?

 

[wolram]

I thought your issue is that people buy bigger engines than actually needed.

That is the case what makes you think i meant any thing other?

 

[xxChrisxx]

I am no expert on accident investigation so i would have to refer to those that know better.

Its rare to get anyone speeding though there. As there is a Truvelo just down from there and its a notoriously crap junction.

In the morning and afternoon you get the mass migration from Gaydon so you are lucky to exceed 50mph.edit: Also everyone shouldn't bash wooly for trying to think about road safety. It's important. Its just crap junctions etc need fixing before stopping cars from going quickly on motorways.

 

[Smattering]

That is the case what makes you think i meant any thing other?

Because in #63 you said that consumers can still buy big engines, as you only want to limit the top speed. And I guarantee you that consumers *will* continue to buy big engines if you only limit the top speed. The primary reason to buy the big engines is not the top speed, but rather the acceleration.

 

[wolram]

Assuming I'm understanding you right, it's this intersection?

I don't think 200mph cars are really the problem for accidents like that, since as Chris said, there's no way the cars were even doing 100mph through there.

That looks like the intersection, i can tell you i was a passenger in a car traveling along the foss at 60mph when a car overtook us and left us in the dust, this was just two miles from he accident site.

 

[wolram]

Because in #63 you said that consumers can still buy big engines, as you only want to limit the top speed. And I guarantee you that consumers *will* continue to buy big engines if you only limit the top speed. The primary reason to buy the big engines is not the top speed, but rather the acceleration.

So you would buy an Audi v10 just to accelerate to what? the nsl is 70 any thing above that is illegal, seems a waste to me.

 

[cjl]

So you would buy an Audi v10 just to accelerate to what? the nsl is 70 any thing above that is illegal, seems a waste to me.

I'd love to buy an Audi V10 to accelerate to 140 on the racetrack, which I go to several times a year. Sadly, $150k is a bit out of my budget at the moment.

 

[xxChrisxx]

So you would buy an Audi v10 just to accelerate to what? the nsl is 70 any thing above that is illegal, seems a waste to me.

A take it youve listened to the new advert. I'd never go anywhere. Just sit on my drive and rev it up and down.

I'd never have to exceed 5mph to get my jollies off from listening to it.

edit: I am a total sucker for a V10. The E60 M5 sounds wonderful too.

 

[cjl]

edit: Also everyone shouldn't bash wooly for trying to think about road safety. It's important. Its just crap junctions etc need fixing before stopping cars from going quickly on motorways.

I don't have a problem thinking about safety, but as someone who enjoys fast cars and racetracks, I don't support speed limiting cars, especially since I haven't really seen any evidence that greatly excessive speed (>90-100mph) has ever been a significant factor in the overall automotive death rate. If every fatal crash involved a high performance sports car going 150mph and the crash rates were high enough, I'd agree that something would need to be done, but that isn't the case. If you're interested in safety, you first need to look at what is causing the majority of fatal crashes, rather than simply going on an anti-speed crusade.

 

[Smattering]

So you would buy an Audi v10 just to accelerate to what? the nsl is 70 any thing above that is illegal, seems a waste to me.

As I live in Germany, *I* could actually go to an open limit Autobahn segment and accelerate the hell out of it.
But here in Germany, such engines are extremely rare. Most cars of our luxury carmakers are sold with much smaller engines here. Still they have a top speed above 130 mph of course. Even the 1.4 liter 4 cylinder of my wife reaches 130 mph.

 

[wolram]

A take it youve listened to the new advert. I'd never go anywhere. Just sit on my drive and rev it up and down.

I'd never have to exceed 5mph to get my jollies off from listening to it.

edit: I am a total sucker for a V10. The E60 M5 sounds wonderful too.

Try this for audio.

 

[cjl]

A take it youve listened to the new advert. I'd never go anywhere. Just sit on my drive and rev it up and down.

I'd never have to exceed 5mph to get my jollies off from listening to it.

edit: I am a total sucker for a V10. The E60 M5 sounds wonderful too.

V10s really are something. There's a guy in my local Porsche club who owns a Carrera GT, and the sound that thing makes is just intoxicating.

 

[wolram]

As I live in Germany, *I* could actually go to an open limit Autobahn segment and accelerate the hell out of it.
But here in Germany, such engines are extremely rare. Most cars of our luxury carmakers are sold with much smaller engines here. Still they have a top speed above 130 mph of course. Even the 1.4 liter v4 of my wife reaches 130 mph.

Come on now, i have been on the autobahns, they were full of Mercs and BMWs

 

[xxChrisxx]

I'm glad we d

Come on now, i have been on the autobahns, they were full of Mercs and BMWs

Every one a 320d, C200 or an A4 tdi. So dull.

Petrol and at least 6 cylinders is the way forward.

 

[Smattering]

Come on now, i have been on the autobahns, they were full of Mercs and BMWs

Of course there are lots of German cars on German roads. But the average engine is rather small compared with your v10 example.

 

[cjl]

Come on now, i have been on the autobahns, they were full of Mercs and BMWs

Mercs and BMWs with 1500-2000cc turbocharged 4 cylinder engines are rather common though. Most of them don't usually come with 500hp V10s.

 

[wolram]

Just tell me this, setting aside Germany, how many of you WANT to break the law and drive over speed limits 70ish in most countries?
How many of you want to break the law and travel through towns villages above the 30mph limit?
How many of you do break the law?

 

[cjl]

I legally travel 120+mph many times per year on a racetrack. Are you saying I should not be able to do that?

 

[wolram]

I legally travel 120+mph many times per year on a racetrack. Are you saying I should not be able to do that?

Now you are being silly, you can go what ever speed you want on a race track, i love F! and follow Mercedes, you did not answer my question by the way.

 

[wolram]

It is my bed time now i have to get ready for my operation tomorrow.
All the best to you all keep safe.

 

[cjl]

Now you are being silly, you can go what ever speed you want on a race track, i love F! and follow Mercedes, you did not answer my question by the way.

Well, how would I be able to do that if every vehicle had an underpowered 1600cc engine and could only travel 70mph?

 

[Smattering]

Just tell me this, setting aside Germany, how many of you WANT to break the law and drive over speed limits 70ish in most countries?
How many of you want to break the law and travel through towns villages above the 30mph limit?
How many of you do break the law?

As long as you do not ban guns, I would say that unlimited cars are the least problem you have.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Just tell me this, setting aside Germany, how many of you WANT to break the law and drive over speed limits 70ish in most countries?

yes

How many of you want to break the law and travel through towns villages above the 30mph limit?

no

 

[Randy Beikmann]

... why are these huge engined cars sold world wide, what is the use owning a car with a v10 engine capable of 200mph when your local motorway has a 70mph top limit.

Why do we allow houses greater than 100 square feet, when that's plenty of room to lay down in? Think of all the wasted energy.

 

[HowlerMonkey]

Our car goes 300mph.

We will sell a few nearly as capable.

 

[Glenstr]

The old (and tired) "why do you/someone need x"?

Especially when x can be used to (a) put someone in danger and / or (b) break a law.

I'm a hunter, as well as a firearms enthusiast, so I often hear the "why do you need a <insert hand, semi auto, large calibre etc..> gun? - to which I usually reply "why do you NEED a <big screen TV, a nice car, cold beer on a hot day> ? , to which the obvious answer is you really don't, do you?

For the topic at hand, I just bought a new F150 pickup with a dual turbocharged 6 cylinder motor. It goes like a bat out of hell, and would leave many of the "muscle cars" I drove in the 70's eating its dust. Do I "need" acceleration like that? No I don't, but I also pull a travel trailer through the mountains, and although I don't "need" to be able to pull it up long grades at the posted speed limit, I like to do so, and I'm sure 99% of the other motorists traveling in my direction like the fact that I do too..

Living in a society where faceless bureaucrats in some gov't body decide what I need and don't need is not very appealing.

I'm a little too fond of liberty, I guess..

 

[Tom Rauji]

Cars today are wonderfully engineered. My car is 420 HP, stops and corners exceptionally well, is comfortable, quiet, safe, and still gets almost 30 MPG on the highway. I had a compact 4 cylinder car that got almost 45 MPG, and I quickly hated it. 700 miles after I purchased that car, a deer stepped out in front of me. The skinny tire little car made what should have been avoidable become like watching a tragedy unfold in slow motion. I could not steer around the deer, I could not stop. The tiny little hard tires just slid and slid as I hit the deer. I could have avoided the deer if the car stopped and steered anything like a performance car, but the car could not do anything well. It was single focus on MPG, and not a good country rural road car. Buy what you want, but don't force me to buy what you want.

 

[Strong Eagle]

Just tell me this, setting aside Germany, how many of you WANT to break the law and drive over speed limits 70ish in most countries?
How many of you want to break the law and travel through towns villages above the 30mph limit?
How many of you do break the law?

Why do you keep equating engine size and speeding? It's a false connection. Except for the fastest highways I can exceed the speed limit most everywhere in a 1.8L Corolla. Except when I am going uphill in the mountains. Then, I need a larger engine both for climbing and for dealing with reduced efficiency due to altitude.

In your zeal to regulate engine sizes to control speed, are you going to permit an allowance for high altitude? For climbing hills? For pulling trailers? What's your formula that permits me to have a 3.0L instead of a 2.0L? Maximum vehicle curb weight? What are you going to do when I need a 5.0L to pull a large trailer carrying a tractor but don't have the trailer hooked up all the time. Your engine size arguments fall apart.

The argument is pointless from another view as well, and that is the speed limits themselves. In far too many places, well meaning (and ignorant) bureaucrats set the speed limits far lower than they should be. Everyone violates the limits and everyone becomes a criminal, except for those who actually follow the stupid speed limits thereby making the roadway more dangerous by creating speed differentials.

It has been shown that people drive at a safe speed, not the posted speed. Many governments, including the State of Texas, have a law on the books that speed limits are to be set at the speed at which the 85th percentile of drivers go. It's routinely violated by municipalities who want to collect ticket revenue.

You want to control speeding? Educate the driver. Don't limit engine sizes.

 

[Tom Rauji]

The bottom line is if we do not understand complex systems that have many dozens of variables, we should not dictate rules for those systems.

 

[cjl]

Our car goes 300mph.

We will sell a few nearly as capable.

What car would that be, out of curiosity?