News What's your comment on the debate between Bush and Kerry?

[Saint]

bush does not know how to manage economy,
he will make america bankcrupt

 

[kat]

Zingers are one line comments that ZIIIINNNGG in other words hit you hard and fast.

 

[Gokul43201]

Your right, In fact I think it was only brought up once by the dude asking the questions...
BTW, who writes those questions?

The questions were supposedly written by Jim Lehrer himself, the moderator, who is also the Host of Newshour, on PBS.

 

[kat]

The questions were supposedly written by Jim Lehrer himself, the moderator, who is also the Host of Newshour, on PBS.

WEll, I think he did a crappy job of developing the questions. What about economy? health care? social security?

 

[Gokul43201]

This is fascinating :http://www.kerryhatersforkerry.com/

 

[Gokul43201]

WEll, I think he did a crappy job of developing the questions. What about economy? health care? social security?

He wasn't allowed (by the guidelines agreed upon by the two sides) to ask questions relating those issues. The Bush lawyers insisted upon (and got) a full debate dedicated entirely to National Security.

Not his fault, that.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The questions were supposedly written by Jim Lehrer himself, the moderator, who is also the Host of Newshour, on PBS.

He still may have been given the subjects. I didn't hear this point clarified. Otherwise, I agree with Kat; the questions were too narrow.

 

[Moonbear]

He wasn't allowed (by the guidelines agreed upon by the two sides) to ask questions relating those issues. The Bush lawyers insisted upon (and got) a full debate dedicated entirely to National Security.

Not his fault, that.

That was one thing that bothered me about both candidates...the laundry list of conditions they each wanted met for the debate. I think the people organizing the debate should make the rules, not the candidates. And they should be required to answer any question the moderator wants to ask them, not pick and choose in advance what they want to cover. Then we'd really see who knows their stuff...no memorizing five sentences that you can repeat for every question!

But, if the topic was Bush's choice, then that's even worse for him to have seemed so horribly unprepared for so many of the questions.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I should have known. [gokul43201's post wasn't up yet when I posted]

 

[Gokul43201]

He still may have been given the subjects. I didn't hear this point clarified. Otherwise, I agree with Kat; the questions were too narrow.

From the transcript of the debate :

Lehrer : ...Tonight‘s will last 90 minutes, following detailed rules of engagement worked out by representatives of the candidates. I have agreed to enforce their rules on them.

The umbrella topic is foreign policy and homeland security, but the specific subjects were chosen by me, the questions were composed by me, the candidates have not been told what they are, nor has anyone else.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And I wasn't even thinking about the future debates. How many did they agree to again?

 

[Gokul43201]

Three, total. That was a win for Kerry's side. But, in exchange, he had to yield on almost all the other details to the Bush guys.

 

[Gokul43201]

Another IEM update :

9:00pm ET : K = $0.338 ; B = $0.682
10:30pm ET: K = $0.333 ; B = $0.682
1:30am ET : K = $0.343 ; B = $0.665

This suggests to me that a majority of the traders here are conservative. Just after the debate ended, they thought Bush did better, but after reading/watching/gauging nationwide opinion, they bought heavily into Kerry.

 

[Gokul43201]

That was one thing that bothered me about both candidates...the laundry list of conditions they each wanted met for the debate.

Here's some of the points they were battling over :

Kerry wanted the temperature below 70F, Bush, above.

Kerry wanted transparent podia (or whatever the things are called that they hide behind), Bush wanted opaque ones.

Kerry didn't want the timing lights to be visible to the people, Bush did.

I can understand the first and last, but the second point makes me raise an eyebrow.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

USA Radio Network News just reported that "most" people felt Bush won the debate.

The soundbites chosen tell it all. Very pro Bush.

 

[Gokul43201]

USA Radio Network News just reported that "most" people felt Bush won the debate.

The soundbites chosen tell it all. Very pro Bush.

I've been looking for something from Fox News. This is the best I found :

From foxnews.com :

Flash Polls

Both CBS and ABC released quickie reaction polls. The CBS survey of 200 "fence sitters" showed 44 percent said Kerry won, 26 percent said Bush won and 30 percent said it was a tie. The ABC numbers were similar in that 45 percent gave the edge to Kerry while 36 chose Bush and 17 percent said it was a tie.

 

[Gokul43201]

The TV's on with a repeat of the whole debate happening, and I just heard this (again) :

LEHRER: New question, Mr. President. Two minutes.

What about Senator Kerry‘s point, the comparison he drew between the priorities of going after Osama bin Laden and going after Saddam Hussein?

BUSH: ... Of course we‘re after Saddam Hussein—I mean bin Laden.

This is not the first occurance in recent times of folks confusing Osama with Saddam. In a speech, a couple of weeks ago, Rumsfeld made this same slip twice, except he went on without realizing that "Saddam Hussein" was not hiding in caves.

I wonder why ?

 

[plover]

I can understand the first and last, but the second point makes me raise an eyebrow.

Why do you think the third makes sense? It was mostly Bush that went over his limit or got stuck filling time, the lights just made this obvious.

I doubt the second would have much sense to me beforehand, but it does coincide with the candidates' respective postures while speaking tonight.

 

[Saint]

do you have independent nominee for your president?

 

[BobG]

Just looking at style points, I think Kerry won this debate. I think the lights on the podium were the deciding factor.

At the start of the debate, Bush's answers were very strong ... until he realized his answer wasn't very long.

The space filling comments stepped all over his main point and often caused him problems with the clock. By time he was able to figure out where the space filling comments were going, he had to force a conclusion to his answers to beat the clock.

He made some adustments as the debate went along, leaving some of his answers short and undiluted, but the early struggle to fill up time seemed to cause him to wear out as the debate went on. He wound up repeating the same thing over and over, as if he was just too tired to think anymore.

The clock didn't seem to cause Kerry as many problems as Bush. He occasionally had to 'invent' a logical conclusion to his answer due to time, but usually had his comments timed well and brought them to a strong conclusion right on schedule. He got his main points across much stronger than Bush did.

No visible clock - Bush could have stopped talking as soon as he made his point. He would have come across as very clear and concise. A visible clock and the fear that a short answer would be seen as ... [what? what's wrong with short answers?] ... left Bush struggling.

Kerry is a lot better debater than Bush. Kerry controlled his nonverbals a lot better. Bush appeared very strong at times, but also appeared a little whiny at times as if he were begging not to be fired.

Very little new info for those who have followed the campaign, but that's not who these debates are really for, anyway.

 

[Gokul43201]

Why do you think the third makes sense? It was mostly Bush that went over his limit or got stuck filling time, the lights just made this obvious.

I doubt the second would have much sense to me beforehand, but it does coincide with the candidates' respective postures while speaking tonight.

Mostly Bush didn't have enough to say, but they thought Kerry would overshoot very often. In fact, the Kerry lawyers were trying to get more time per question.

 

[Gokul43201]

Yet another IEM update :

9:00pm ET : K = $0.338 ; B = $0.682
10:30pm ET: K = $0.333 ; B = $0.682
1:30am ET : K = $0.343 ; B = $0.665
10:00am ET : K = $0.352 ; B = $0.651

 

[russ_watters]

The TV's on with a repeat of the whole debate happening, and I just heard this (again) :



This is not the first occurance in recent times of folks confusing Osama with Saddam. In a speech, a couple of weeks ago, Rumsfeld made this same slip twice, except he went on without realizing that "Saddam Hussein" was not hiding in caves.

I wonder why ?

Well, Saddam was captured in a hole in the ground...

 

[the number 42]

A bad showing on the first debate will be a winner for Bush in the next 2.

Do you need an IQ of 129 to understand this? Bush the Genius is putting up a smokescreen of ineptitude in order to lull Kerry into a false sense of security? Sacrificing the pawn of the first debate in order to secure the other two?

I personally would love it if Bush Jr turned out to be that intelligent (and good an actor). It would be like discovering proof of telepathy, or finding out that 6 was 9 all along.

 

[Gokul43201]

Well, Saddam was captured in a hole in the ground...

You wouldn't raise that objection if you'd heard or read what Rummy actually said.

I stopped short, but he said something like "Saddam Hussein is running scared. He's hiding in the caves somewhere near Afghanistan-Pakistan border and we haven't seen a video of him since what, over 2 years now."

That was after he'd said " Saddam Hussein ordered the execution of <some name>, a member of the Northern Alliance." This he corrected, however.

 

[plover]

Mostly Bush didn't have enough to say, but they thought Kerry would overshoot very often. In fact, the Kerry lawyers were trying to get more time per question.

The idea that Kerry would prefer more time makes sense, but unless he has had a history of running over his time in this kind of formal situation (I have no idea if he does or not), I'm not sure why this necessarily corresponds to preferences about the visibility of the clocks. In general, I would expect that details that expose the mechanics of the debate would tend to favor Kerry, but I'm just speculating—what do I know about debate stage management?

 

[Moonbear]

Here's some of the points they were battling over :

Kerry wanted the temperature below 70F, Bush, above.

Kerry wanted transparent podia (or whatever the things are called that they hide behind), Bush wanted opaque ones.

Kerry didn't want the timing lights to be visible to the people, Bush did.

I can understand the first and last, but the second point makes me raise an eyebrow.

So, anyone know what temperature was agreed upon? Did Bush want to sweat visibly throughout the debate? Raise the temp above 70, plus all that stage lighting, and they'd both be sweating and looking nervous.

I don't know about transparent podia. Though, Bush does have a tendency to lean on the podia, and who knows, maybe Kerry knows of some fidgeting Bush does that we haven't seen through podia before? Then again, I heard Bush wanted some sort of pitcher's mound thing behind the podia to offset the 5 inch height difference between him and Kerry, so maybe Kerry anticipated this, so that's why he wanted transparent podia, to show that Bush had to stand on a crate to reach the top of the podium

That last one is funny...I can see why going into the debate they'd each want it that way, but then Bush wound up being the one going over while I only saw Kerry run overtime twice, and then only by a few words to finish up a sentence. On one question, I thought Lehrer was going to have to cut Bush off since they already started blinking the red light at him and he was still talking. Bush also would just start extending the debate without waiting for permission from Lehrer as he was supposed to. Some times he did have an actual rebuttal, but other times it was stupid...he would just restate what he said the first time that Kerry already knocked apart, so Bush came across sounding like a child who just has to keep repeating himself to try to make his point rather than actually giving an effective argument.

There still seem to be a lot of Bush supporters in denial. They are all saying he'll do better in the next two. But, this first was foreign affairs, this was supposed to be his strongest debate. I think the next debate is domestic issues, which Kerry already was stronger on. I can't recall what the third debate topic is.

One of Bush's statements struck me as especially funny. He was replying to Kerry's comments regarding better homeland security (x-rays of cargo on flights, inspecting containers arriving at our ports, securing mass transit, such as the NY subway system that had to be shut down to make NY safe enough for Bush to visit for the RNC, securing chemical plants, increasing funding for police and firefighters, and securing loose nuclear materials in the former Soviet Union) in lieu of tax breaks for the rich. In response to this, Bush said, "I don’t want to get to how he’s going to pay for all these services. That’s...like...a huge tax gap." From a President who has taken us from a surplus to a deficit and thinks he can continue to cut taxes while continuing to fund war in Iraq, that struck me as amazingly absurd. The only thing that kept me from crying was that I was laughing too hard at the way he said it. He sounded like a teenager arguing with a parent: that's...like...so unfair!

 

[Saint]

"I think that Kerry did a good job." (Sen. John McCain, MSNBC, 9/30/04)

"Kerry was forceful and articulate." (Bill Kristol, Fox News Channel, 9/30/04)

"We saw Bush smirking...Kerry was more poised." (Wolf Blitzer, CNN, 9/30/04)

"Kerry's done a good job of becoming Mr. Homeland Security." (Jon Meacham, Newsweek on MSNBC, 9/30/04)

 

[Gokul43201]

So, anyone know what temperature was agreed upon? Did Bush want to sweat visibly throughout the debate? Raise the temp above 70, plus all that stage lighting, and they'd both be sweating and looking nervous.

It was set above 70. Kerry's supposed to be a sweater (not the woolly things you wear in the cold), and according to one of Bush's lawyers. "women don't like a sweater". Bush, however, can handle Texas summer heat without breaking into a sweat.

This is a little off-topic, but the above paragraph just reminded me of a cartoon in the New Yorker, that I read nearly 4 years ago. It showed Bush in the Oval Office asking Colin Powell : "So India and Pakistan are fighting over sweaters ?"

 

[BobG]

In the same spirit as Saint's quotes, on the O'Reilly Factor, Richard Morris explained Bush's problem as lack of preparation. According to him, it's a problem easily fixed. "It's like a homework problem."