When is Assisted Suicide Justified?

[cliowa]

For example, Durkheim claimed that a seemingly individual and personal act like suicide, can be viewed as a social phenomenon influenced by various social factors. (see http://durkheim.itgo.com/suicide.html" )

That's not much of a surprise, is it? Animals suicide in masses, but nobody would argue that that's an "individual" or "personal" act.
It seems quite obvious to me that the environmental (that includes social) situation has a large influence on one's happiness with life, and therefore on
the personal well-being and will to go on living.
I think the statistics support this point of view. Countries, where it's dark for half of the year, not many people around with nothing to do, have high suicide rates. Of course this only covers one part of the issue.

 

[Ki Man]

life is precious. Even if you had absolutely nothing left to live for, you could still do something with your life.

like joining the army or helping others like you.

 

[Reshma]

A quote from "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand which I found appropriate here.
I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

 

[Mk]

It looks to me like the air around here says that suicide isn't so bad and people are free to choose to do whatever they want with their life, including ending it.

It seems to me normally the people who commit suicide aren't always thinking so straight—emotions easily inhibit rationality. Should we still leave them be?

 

[AKrausse]

I think suicide is neither justified or unjustified, its just a part of someones life (or end of life). Its like anything else you have to make a choice on. If you're set on something, well you're set on it you need justification from anyone. Besides who can really know what the person is feeling when he or she decides to commit suicide. If some of you really knew you probably wouldn't think it was something that would merit killing yourself over, but it all depends on the person and their ability to handle life situations. Not everyone is strong enough to go on past certain things.

 

[physics girl phd]

hmm... as a "survivor of suicide" (my dad and a friend) and also knowing both a friend who attempted and being engaged to someone who attempted... I guess my thought is that suicide is only justified when the person can justify to themselves that all potential is lost. THAT is a hard thing. Can anyone justify that? Both my friend and future husband are very glad that thing did not work out as intended... would Dad have been? Would my friend have been? They denied themselves potential for things they didn't know. Things that nobody will ever know. Hmm... I was left to forgive... To to continue to forgive. That's the "survivor" part I guess. But yeah -- what about decendents... about grandkids my Dad will never know. They are survivors too. That's well... hard... but things are never easy.

 

[raolduke]

If you commit suicide it doesn't mean you've lost anything you just want to gain everything.

 

[Marghk]

While I think suicide is the ultimate act of stupidity, I find it morally alright. It's basically just giving up, when you give up you go nowhere but where you left.

Suicide is avoiding the future, it's giving up all the possible opportunities and good things that can happen to you. Suicide is when someone has nothing to lose, hence why they kill themselves.

In another sense it's like playing a hand in a game of poker and you don't need to bet. You have nothing to lose when you're that desperete, so why fold?

 

[Evo]

I can see suicide as a rational decision if you are terminally ill, deteriorating and in increasing pain with no hope of recovery. It would be irrational in this case to want to continue to suffer, knowing there is no hope. What would be the point? I know I would not want to continue to suffer.

People that have a temporary hardship that think there is no way out, or decide that the way out is not something they want to do, only they can make that decision. Sure, if they don't kill themselves they usually see that the problem wasn't as bad as they thought.

I had someone commit suicide because of me. He was only 18. It was stupid, but I guess at the time he could not see a way out of the pain. His death is something I always think about, how senseless it was.

 

[raolduke]

Suicide is impossible to justify. I recall an All Too Human quote, something to do along the lines that the victim never takes into account his/her family’s or friend’s reputation.

 

[alexsok]

I wonder... if we could live forever and weren't afflicted with any permanently debilitating maladies such as terminal diseases, loss of loved ones, etc but were simply unhappy say for 80 years. Some people here suggested the waiting it out in these "milder" cases is the way to go and others said that if you're suffering mentally for any prolonged periods of time with no hope in sight then suicide is justified. But if we had lived forever, would the eternity suffice to offset any depressive moods?

Evo

I had someone commit suicide because of me. He was only 18. It was stupid, but I guess at the time he could not see a way out of the pain. His death is something I always think about, how senseless it was.

Love? that's the sort of suicide I never understood... i know what is emotional suffering and unrequired love and it does feel awful and unbearable at times, but to off myself because of that... is an ill-conceived decision. Any sort of suicide is justified, just like any other type of decision, but you've got to wonder whether separation from a precious person (your gf/bf whilst they are of course still alive) and being terminally ill or somesuch are in the same category and can be rationalized using the same criteria - I think not.

I believe that in the future, after we manage to permanently instill incredible emotions in every human being through tinkering with chemistry (the pills would be benevolent and not addictive), no one would ever even think of committing suicide, but we probably have 10-20 or more years to go until that happens.

 

[Huckleberry]

An individual can certainly justify the act of suicide. There is no doubt of that. What is not justified is forcing someone to live against their will.

A person did not request to be alive and they need not request to end their life. A person has the responsibility to behave according to the standards of the society that they choose to live in. If they do not desire to or are unable to function according to those standards then they have the option to end their life. The only exceptions I can think of are the responsibilities of children, marriage and sometimes religion. These are all life-binding arrangements normally chosen willingly. One should honor their responsibilities, especially in the case of children, whos life the person is directly responsible for.

I find it very ironic that in western cultures there is such a strong negative reaction to suicide. I say this because I've seen how society is disgusted by people that, for one reason or another, are unable to live up to the social standards required of them. When they become depressed and exhibit negative emotions they are shunned with little real attempt at understanding the individual. I see very little social concern for the individual. Then when someone commits suicide people call them stupid, irresponsible, wrong, etc. when they have absolutely no compassion for, or understanding of, this person's suffering. We choose to leave their fate up to some social service and ignore any social responsibility from one individual to another. I think we are rather cowardly, insecure and selfish as a society.

Realize that many of the prejudices we have towards suicide are just what we have adopted from the society that we live in. There are no rational reasons for many of the reactions we have. Consider that in Japan suicide, under certain circumstances, was regarded as an honorable death. Was their society barbaric and irresponsible? What would they say of our society? Who would be correct?

 

[baywax]

Most accidents are a form of suicide.

Accident or Suicide? Destruction by Automobile: Norman Tabachnick, Ed., Charles C. Thomas, 1973, 254 pp.
Review by: Seymour Perlin

The Los Angeles Suicide Prevention Center has not only pioneered in the response to self-destructive behavior but has contributed to its study. Tabachnick and his collaborators further such contributions in Accident or Suicide? Destruction by Automobile. The book revolves around a “specific theory of the etiology of accident—namely, that in many, perhaps even most accidents, suicide or suicide-like factors are in evidence.”

The importance of the problem may be conveyed by loss of lives, over 50,000 each year in accidents; and the two million who are disabled each year for one or more days.


In an exemplary manner, the authors clearly state their research strategy, development and identification of hypotheses, criteria for selection of the sample, results and accompanying qualifications.


Basically, the report evaluates and compares self-destructive factors among three groups of subjects: a critical accident group, a critical suicide group and a post-append

(This is a summary or excerpt from the full text of the book or article. The full text of the document is available to subscribers.)

http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=JAA.002.0389A

 

[raolduke]

This is going into existential angst and the point/less-ness of life. Was it Socrates who said that life is an ailment and the physician is death?

 

[NeoDevin]

We should maybe start another thread about "When is continuing to live justified?"

Anyways, seriously, one situation to consider is when a person has devoted their life to some cause, and comes to the situation where that cause would be better served by their death rather than continued life (ie. as a martyr).

In the end it's a purely personal decision. An individual will weigh the benefits and drawbacks of their death (the consequences for themselves, as well as whatever consequences they can see for others). I believe that most people who commit suicide do not have all the facts.

 

[NeoDevin]

Also, what if a person has a terminal illness? If they decide to do something that will kill them (like taking a bullet for a loved one), then is that justified suicide? If they are going to die anyways in a day or two? Or a week? A year? 10 years? 100? Can't it be argued that since we are all going to die anyways, that nothing is really suicide, that we're just choosing the manner and time of our death?

If it's something that happens to us all anyways, shouldn't we have that right, the right to choose our own death?

 

[Surrealist]

Losing meaning to life is no reason to end it. Having no meaning to life is neutral, having purpose in life in positive. And personally I think there IS no negative in this situation. There is no "less then no meaning to life", which is why I think suicide is bull**** and why it IS never justified (No, the neutral stance is not a reason, because your death will be of no benefit). And I myself would never give justice to it EVER.

From a purely hypothetical point of view, a life which guarentees future harm to others should score a "negative"; therefore, one would be justified in sacrificing his/her own life in order to ensure the safety of others.

Along those lines, suicide should also be justified when ending one life saves more than one life. This idea shows up as a literary theme throughout religious history. Some examples include sacrificial offerings made to appease dieties, and a very good example is the story of the self-sacrifice made by Jesus. Although Jesus was technically crucified by those who opposed his ideas, it was made very clear by the Gospels of his apostles that he had the option to end his own suffering and death but he endured it for a "greater good".

Here is another hypothetical situation: suppose an "evil-doer" throws a grenade through the window of a nursery filled with infants in cradles. Suppose that the only adult supervising the infants has a split-second decision to make: run out the door and save his/her own life or throw himself/herself on top of the grenade in order to save the infants who are incapable of leaving the room themselves. A suicide in this scenario would be justified.

"The needs of the many outweighed the needs of the one."

 

[baywax]

From a purely hypothetical point of view, a life which guarentees future harm to others should score a "negative"; therefore, one would be justified in sacrificing his/her own life in order to ensure the safety of others.

Along those lines, suicide should also be justified when ending one life saves more than one life. This idea shows up as a literary theme throughout religious history. Some examples include sacrificial offerings made to appease dieties, and a very good example is the story of the self-sacrifice made by Jesus. Although Jesus was technically crucified by those who opposed his ideas, it was made very clear by the Gospels of his apostles that he had the option to end his own suffering and death but he endured it for a "greater good".

Here is another hypothetical situation: suppose an "evil-doer" throws a grenade through the window of a nursery filled with infants in cradles. Suppose that the only adult supervising the infants has a split-second decision to make: run out the door and save his/her own life or throw himself/herself on top of the grenade in order to save the infants who are incapable of leaving the room themselves. A suicide in this scenario would be justified.

"The needs of the many outweighed the needs of the one."

These sorts of acts are not called suicide. They're called "heroism". Suicide seems to imply harm to one's self and others in your way. Heroism implies harm to oneself in while benefiting others.

Holocaust Survivor's Heroism
The Skinny: Virginia Tech Professor Died While Shielding Students From Gunman

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/18/the_skinny/main2697988.shtml?source=RSS&attr=_2697988

 

[Huckleberry]

Those examples aren't exactly self inflicted. There is another person involved with the intent to kill and there is also someone to protect. Those people are not responsible for their own deaths. They were killed by others while attempting to protect something they perceived as more valuable than their own life.

 

[Surrealist]

Huckleberry, it all depends on how you define suicide. If you want to include a phrase in your definition of suicide that excludes acts of heroism, then I suppose you are right. If you don't do this, then you are wrong.

So you see, this whole argument circles around a human-constructed definition.

 

[Huckleberry]

Are there any kinds of definitions that aren't human-constructed?

The person's own death isn't the intention in those cases. The intention in those cases is to benefit others with an act that requires self-sacrafice. The reason for their death is to benefit others, not to end their own life. I think the intention of death is implicit in the definition of suicide.

This reminds me of something. http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D8OL2SA00.html". I would call this suicide, as the person's own death seems to be the motivation for the act.

[The ends justify the means in the case of suicide. It's not 'how' they die, but 'why'.]

 

[NeoDevin]

Is it ok to commit suicide out of curiosity? Simply to see what it's like to be dead?

I've often wondered what it will be like, but decided that since it will come anyways, there's no need to rush it.

 

[alexsok]

Is it ok to commit suicide out of curiosity? Simply to see what it's like to be dead?

I've often wondered what it will be like, but decided that since it will come anyways, there's no need to rush it.

Curiosity of what? Think back to the time before you were born and there you have your curiosity satisfied - that is not a place I would want to visit again, particularly since being dead is tantamount to the entire universe never existing (for you anyway, but that's the same thing). RIchard Dawkins had 3 good quotes on this subject:

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here."

"If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr's death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed, if ludicrous and degrading to women, sexual promises, and is it any wonder that naïve and frustrated young men are clamouring to be selected for suicide missions?"

"After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with colour, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn't it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked -- as I am surprisingly often -- why I bother to get up in the mornings. To put it the other way round, isn't it sad to go to your grave without ever wondering why you were born? Who, with such a thought, would not spring from bed, eager to resume discovering the world and rejoicing to be a part of it?"

I rest my case.

 

[raolduke]

Have you've been to a nursing home and tried to have a conversation with one of the residents? It'd be much nicer not to be around to see your self withering like shells of people I've seen.

Suicide is always justified because you are taking your own life, your applying your own meaning to it.. How many here have ever contemplated that?

Life is a strange form of suicide anyways.. You must be living a very dull life if you don't agree..

"Bravery and stupidity go hand in hand, that must mean I'm the bravest man."

 

[Rade]

Jesus the god committed suicide [eg. he refused the taking of his life by others when he could have prevented it]. If the act OK for a god who are humans to condemn it ? All humans [and gods] justify to themselves that the act is OK--such is the price of free-will.

 

[Surrealist]

In general, why do people commit suicide? I believe it is because they have lost hope. I'm talking about the hope that life will get better in the future. Hope is the only reason we persist.

Let's face the fact people... if you have no hope, and there is no possibility that hope will be restored, then there is no point in living.

 

[puni12]

suicide is never justified..
whatever pain a person is facing.., there's always light at the end of the tunnel..
and one more thing.. life is a gift..
suicdie is just like receiving a birthday gift then throwing it away just because u get bored with it or because of what the thing has done to you..
but the thing has never done anything to you.. it only dpends on how we think about it.
its the same with life..
life has never done anything to you. your life depends on how you look at it and how you react to its situations.

life is short..
why waste it?

 

[summerale]

Justified Suicide

If just getting through the day is torture, 400 painful memories and thoughts a day, then perhaps suicide is a rational option. Only the individual can make the decision. For everyone to say, Oh don't do it, don't do it, could be grossly unfair to the individual. Perhaps he / she IS in such a horribly depressed state that suicide is the humane way to end the terrible, unending pain. Terrible things happen to people: failure in jobs, divorce after 30 years of marriage, losing one's house and money, incessant debt collectors ringing at all hours of the day, being evicted from one's apartment, becoming homeless, being impoverished, growing old and unemployable. An American military person could read "Killing Hope" and discover the country he risked his life for was actually a vampire state that invaded, assassinated, murdered, and was despised by 80% of the planet. There are worse things than suicide. Drug companies should be allowed to manufacture a painless suicide pill to make suicide easier and less traumatic. THAT would be the humane thing to do.

 

[baywax]

If just getting through the day is torture, 400 painful memories and thoughts a day, then perhaps suicide is a rational option. Only the individual can make the decision. For everyone to say, Oh don't do it, don't do it, could be grossly unfair to the individual. Perhaps he / she IS in such a horribly depressed state that suicide is the humane way to end the terrible, unending pain. Terrible things happen to people: failure in jobs, divorce after 30 years of marriage, losing one's house and money, incessant debt collectors ringing at all hours of the day, being evicted from one's apartment, becoming homeless, being impoverished, growing old and unemployable. An American military person could read "Killing Hope" and discover the country he risked his life for was actually a vampire state that invaded, assassinated, murdered, and was despised by 80% of the planet. There are worse things than suicide. Drug companies should be allowed to manufacture a painless suicide pill to make suicide easier and less traumatic. THAT would be the humane thing to do.

As PUNI12 has pointed out "life is short" as it is... we all die at some point... what's the rush?

For example: use life to solve these challenges, such as the 400 "painful memories" per day. Isn't it within a person's power to generate 4000 new, hopeful and envigorating thoughts per day... or even just at lunch? Depression is our body's way of saying "you think too much" or "you need more sunshine" or "try 4000 IU of Vitamin "D". Most of these "problems" or challenges are only a few steps away from solvable... whereas... solving these challanges with death is final... and one has no way to appreciate the solution since one is dead. There is no sense of accomplishment or relief when your dead. In fact you may be carrying these "challenges" with you to your death and dealing with them there. That's why its always a good thing to clear things up while you're alive... just in case its this kind of thing (challenges) that you are able to "take with you".

 

[easyrider]

Suicide is one helluva step to take. Some people I could understand killing themselves, where no life at all is actually better. After you kill yourself though, there's no turning back, no pain, no pleasure, no love and no hate. Cease of all brain activity, its up to them though.

 

[PeteKL]

Whether or not suicide can be justified depends on the circumstances of the deceased such as how his or her death affects relatives(grieving is such suffering) and whether the victim had a better choice or not. The suicidal person would not consider death an option if death denies him or her the ability to think, see, smell, taste, hear and touch unless life is unbearably painful. The insane person might not even care.

 

[Rasmia]

i love this topic along with all the comments

 

[The Phoenix]

I would assert that the very fact that any living organism would take action to end its own life justifies why the action should be taken. Forcing such an organism to survive and possibly procreate is detrimental to the species in question and thus such mal-combinations of genes should be eradicated from the gene-pool. The very fact that such a person would end his or her own life would then prove that the person was obviously not suited to survive (as they killed themselves) therefore there is no Darwinian reason to prevent such an occurance.

I therefore assert that the ends most certainly justify the means, and that anyone who would wish to end his or her own life should be allowed - whether that be individually or assisted.

 

[baywax]

I therefore assert that the ends most certainly justify the means, and that anyone who would wish to end his or her own life should be allowed - whether that be individually or assisted.

Even in the case of a suicide bomber?

 

[WaveJumper]

Even in the case of a suicide bomber?

Fallacy. That does not constitute suicide/death. That's heading for a party with 11 virgins.

 

[baywax]

Fallacy. That does not constitute suicide/death. That's heading for a party with 11 virgins.

In the case of regular suicide... if that's possible... the person doing it thinks they are better off dead... so in both cases there is a similar illusion, assumption and abstraction about death... which could be very wrong for all we know.

 

[f95toli]

Fallacy. That does not constitute suicide/death. That's heading for a party with 11 virgins.

Not really.
The first organization to systematically use suicide bombings were the Tamil Tigers and they are communists, i.e. they are -at least officially- atheists.

There are plenty of other examples where people have willingly gone to their deaths for a "greater good" even though they did not believe in an afterlife.

 

[jreelawg]

I'd say that if you are backed up by an angry mob to the edge of a cliff, and they are wheeling out the torture devices, it would be reasonable to jump off the cliff, although fighting your way to death if possible may be a reasonable alternative.

Also, like the people jumping out of the twin towers on 911, jumping to their death rather than burning alive.

But people who commit suicide for dumb reasons like their stock went down, or because their girlfriend broke up with them, or because they lost their job, or have no friends, etc., they are just very confused and ought to be more reasonable how they talk to themselves.

It is better to find any reason what so ever to live than to wish to die. Some people who think that they have nothing to live for just need some kind of purpose. Go joint the peace chore, go on a search for big foot. No one is doomed to be worthless, don't be selfish, put yourself to some kind of use.

If you feel guilty for something horribly wrong that you did, then rather than being a coward and offing yourself, why not try to give back to the world and strive to break even by do things that are right. Try reach a point where you can at least leave the world with some dignity.

 

[f95toli]

It is better to find any reason what so ever to live than to wish to die. Some people who think that they have nothing to live for just need some kind of purpose. Go joint the peace chore, go on a search for big foot. No one is doomed to be worthless, don't be selfish, put yourself to some kind of use.

Well, I sort of agree.
However, it could of course be argued that -unless you are religious- nothing the peace corps does is really "meaningful" either (neither is searching for big Foot).
At least not if you by "meaning" refer to some objective quality.
What we consider to be meaningful is very subjective, it is very difficult to come up with any purely rational for why ANY human activity is meaningful; this is one reason why purely intellectual arguments rarely work when treating depression.

 

[jreelawg]

Well, I sort of agree.
However, it could of course be argued that -unless you are religious- nothing the peace corps does is really "meaningful" either (neither is searching for big Foot).
At least not if you by "meaning" refer to some objective quality.
What we consider to be meaningful is very subjective, it is very difficult to come up with any purely rational for why ANY human activity is meaningful; this is one reason why purely intellectual arguments rarely work when treating depression.

Helping others has a psychological effect on the brain. For many helping others brings about purpose, motivation, a sense of accomplishment, friends, self respect etc. All of the things that can get you through mental turmoil or suicidal thoughts.

You don't need to be religious to get these perks. In my mind, an earthly world is just as meaningful as a religious one. What kind of meaningful place would a perfect world be compared to one where you can solved problems and help the suffering. On Earth where there is imperfection, there is work to do and meaningful things to accomplish in the sense that what you do has an impact on reality.

Now I don't want to put down religions, religious worlds are meaningful too, but life is at least as meaningful. Just saying that even if there is no correct religion, the meaning is still here and the reasons still justified, in my opinion.

 

[Pythagorean]

Helping others has a psychological effect on the brain. For many helping others brings about purpose, motivation, a sense of accomplishment, friends, self respect etc. All of the things that can get you through mental turmoil or suicidal thoughts.

You don't need to be religious to get these perks. In my mind, an earthly world is just as meaningful as a religious one. What kind of meaningful place would a perfect world be compared to one where you can solved problems and help the suffering. On Earth where there is imperfection, there is work to do and meaningful things to accomplish in the sense that what you do has an impact on reality.

Now I don't want to put down religions, religious worlds are meaningful too, but life is at least as meaningful. Just saying that even if there is no correct religion, the meaning is still here and the reasons still justified, in my opinion.

you're kind of admitting your subjectivity though by choice of words.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but objective is to fact as subjective is to opinion.

 

[WaveJumper]

I hate to be the one who brings humour to this serious thread, but you could always find meaning to life by opting for the obvious evolutionary purpose of "life" - sex(replication). If you find replication/sex out of reach, then the Esc. button is always within reach. As uncle Einstein says - you can't kill a dead person, "death" shouldn't be that scary to a person who knows what modern physics says about reality.

 

[jreelawg]

My point is that earning friends, staying busy, having goals, et, are real objective things. Those things could help your depression. As to whether or not it has cosmological meaning, probably not, but what does?

Also, evolution isn't entirely sexual reproduction. One could change the coarse of history, and that would effect evolution. Say you prevented a biological attack on an entire continent, that would effect how the human race evolves more than having a few kids. This is why ants help build colonies etc.

If you are going to not count reality as meaningful, that is like saying nothing makes a difference. Maybe on the cosmological scale the difference is extremely small, but there is still cause and effect and to me that alone is meaning.

The meaning in religion is that you will either get to keep living, the only difference between no religion is how long and in what manner. So I think that all forms of living are equally meaningful, even if one form is limited in time. Now I respect people who are religious, but being atheist doesn't require not caring about anything as if we are just specs of sand.

 

[f95toli]

If you are going to not count reality as meaningful, that is like saying nothing makes a difference. Maybe on the cosmological scale the difference is extremely small, but there is still cause and effect and to me that alone is meaning.

That was sort of the point. As far as we know there is no objective (lets use the word "scientific", although not quite accurate) reason for why ANYTHING is meaningful, or -as you put it- makes a difference. As far as we know our universe is "meaningless", there is no objective reason for why it -or we- exists.
I realize that you can't really get far with this kind of reasoning (which I guess you could call agnostic nihilism) but I think the basic idea is important: you can't really use intellectual arguments to persuade someone that life is "worth living".

Note that this is quite a new concept in human history; only a few hundred years ago there were no atheists (it is sometimes said that Spinoza in the western world was the first atheist, but even he went to temple occasionally) and people were not even religious in the modern sense (it was not something you chose to be as it is today, since you couldn't really be NOT religious), hence "meaning" was something objective in that whatever religion you belonged to had certain rules for how you were suppose to live and die: it was either live well or go to hell (literally) when you died.

 

[baywax]

I hate to be the one who brings humour to this serious thread, but you could always find meaning to life by opting for the obvious evolutionary purpose of "life" - sex(replication). If you find replication/sex out of reach, then the Esc. button is always within reach. As uncle Einstein says - you can't kill a dead person, "death" shouldn't be that scary to a person who knows what modern physics says about reality.

You've touched on a point I was going to bring up re: this topic.

Humour may be the lifeline many depressed and suicidal people can use to crawl back out of the state of mind they've found themselves in.

If laughter is the best medicine, why not use it? Of the two or so states of mind there are, humour and serousness... why is it seriousness takes the lead among a modern population with rooves, sidewalks, drainage, free schooling etc... Can no one point out the positives and the humourous side to life for those people wallowing in self-pity etc..?

I met a girl who was slated to have part of her brain removed because it was somehow determined that part of her brain was causing her "blackouts". I personally believed the blackouts were some sort of attention getting device or an unconscious defense measure.

In fact I was with her when she had one of the episodes. She sort of crumpled up on the ground. That's when I started talking to her in a Donald Duck voice. And she started to laugh!... right in the middle of her "episode". I saw a glimpse of a way out for her... and a way to avoid surgery. But, seriousness and white lab coats prevailed and she's missing part of her brain today.

Suicide and other self destructive behaviour is a symptom of "buying into" our own and other people's beliefs. When a person has had a diverse education and experience they are able to weigh their thoughts and other's against more prevalent and proven ways of thinking that nullify and combat negative and self-destructive attitudes.

 

[WaveJumper]

Only a life lived for others is a life worth living.

-- A.Einstein

 

[jreelawg]

That was sort of the point. As far as we know there is no objective (lets use the word "scientific", although not quite accurate) reason for why ANYTHING is meaningful, or -as you put it- makes a difference. As far as we know our universe is "meaningless", there is no objective reason for why it -or we- exists.
I realize that you can't really get far with this kind of reasoning (which I guess you could call agnostic nihilism) but I think the basic idea is important: you can't really use intellectual arguments to persuade someone that life is "worth living".

Note that this is quite a new concept in human history; only a few hundred years ago there were no atheists (it is sometimes said that Spinoza in the western world was the first atheist, but even he went to temple occasionally) and people were not even religious in the modern sense (it was not something you chose to be as it is today, since you couldn't really be NOT religious), hence "meaning" was something objective in that whatever religion you belonged to had certain rules for how you were suppose to live and die: it was either live well or go to hell (literally) when you died.

I think that the problem is people tend to use the word "meaning" in this context as supernatural. Life has meaning, just maybe not a higher meaning than ordinary. Perhaps you should use the word reason instead. But, that is kind of a childish question to ask. Always asking why leads to more whys. Not knowing why you exist doesn't mean you don't exist.

Another word misused I think is "worth", "ie. life is not worth living". Certainly there is meaning and there is worth. The meaning is what you do and what happens in the world, as simple as that. The worth is the experiences and so forth. Your argument is only that the meaning is not enough. Like a spoiled kid who wants everything, people want to be the masters of the universe, they want to live forever and hold the stars in there hands. People just always want more.

If you count experiences as something of value then life is worth living because nothing has no value at all. That is why you should try and make your life more valuable by living a positive and happy life, make the most out of it for what it is worth.

If you are to say life has no meaning, or that life is not worth living, then you must define the terms and then you have an argument. Simply, if I can't have everything then I don't want anything is a poor ideal.

As to the point about reasons, maybe you intend to ask why one should do good instead of bad if your afterlife doesn't depend on it. How many people lose sleep at night over helping others or accomplishing goals? A lot more people lose sleep over hurting others and or ruining their own lives. I think that the most value in life is to be found in perfecting the science of "being able to sleep better at night" being happy with yourself and so forth. Some think things like money are better, but we are social creatures, and our minds are designed to depend on people to work best. This is scientific, no higher meaning required, it is the mechanics of the mind. You can use your observation, and you can tell what kind of people are the happiest. Maybe you should use modern technology to make sure they aren't lying though.Also, I want to make the distinction between things you like to do and things that make you happy. They are not necessarily the same. Satisfying primitive urges isn't necessarily happiness. Does shooting up make a person happy in the long run? Does smoking crack? Some things give short lived thrills, but do lots of harm to the general long term well being.

 

[f95toli]

I think that the problem is people tend to use the word "meaning" in this context as supernatural. Life has meaning, just maybe not a higher meaning than ordinary. Perhaps you should use the word reason instead. But, that is kind of a childish question to ask.

But again, I think you are missing the point. I am not saying that life does not have a subjective meaning, what I am saying is simply that there is -as far as we know- no objective reason for why one should get out of bed in the morning, or do anything at all for that matter.
"The meaning of life" has the same problem as any other philosophical question (or any problem in science for that matter); we basically have to postulate some axioms (which in this case could be e.g. "things that make me feel good makes life worth living") before we can proceed; you can't create a reasonably consistent system otherwise.

But the problem with this is of course that one has to accept these axioms in the first place and you can't persuade someone to do that just by appealing to their intellect.
Now, to a large extent these "axioms" (or whatever you want to call them) are hardwired into our us (we e.g. WANT things, food, love etc and we have reward centres in our brain that makes us feel good when we get them), but the interesting thing with the human brain is that we are aware that these things are just "hardware" meaning we can choose to ignore them or for some reason consider them to be "not enough" (as is to some extent the case in clinical depressions where the "feel good mechanism" do not work properly because of problems with seratonin levels etc).
If you are religious you can also postulate that some of the things we experience as "good" are not merely biochemistry but has some objective value.

Not knowing why you exist doesn't mean you don't exist.

No, but it does mean that I can't be SURE that I exist; which bring us back to what I wrote above about the problem with purely intellectual arguments in this case.
It would e.g. be very difficult (I would assume impossible) to persuade a computer (to be more precise a Turing machine) that life is worth living. I suspect that if we some day manage to create a true AI "life is worth living" is one of the things that will need to be postulated in its basic algorithms (and yes, I do realize that this is just Asimov's third law)

 

[baywax]

Only a life lived for others is a life worth living.

-- A.Einstein

"The shortest distance between two people is a smile."

Victor Borg

 

[tchitt]

Only a life lived for others is a life worth living.

-- A.Einstein

Nothing against Albert, but that's a load of crap. There's no such thing as a life "lived for others"... everything has its roots in selfishness, and there isn't anything wrong with that. But that's another topic.

As for the original post; the meaning of life comes from within. It's the type of thing that you need to make for yourself. We all feel a little hopeless, lost, and inconsequential once in a while... I'd be willing to bet even the more religious among us have their moments. It's never really justified, in my opinion. There aren't many things that can happen to you that time and a positive outlook won't fix.

Our "purpose" may be no more important than that of the grass in our yards. It grows to please our sense of aesthetics only to be cut down for the same reason. If the blade of grass had a consciousness how could it possibly fathom this endless cycle of death by mutilation? (Okay, maybe the grass doesn't actually DIE every time you mow the yard but you get my meaning.) Then again our purpose could be any number of things, and we'll probably never know what it is... or maybe we will. That's the problem isn't it?

My point is, basically, that to feel so overwhelmed and depressed about your life that you'd want to end it is ridiculous. I say stiffen that upper lip... we're all in the same boat.