Where did all the physics ladies go?

[EnSlavingBlair]

First of all, I'd like to clarify my title by pointing out it is NOT a dodgy pick-up line. I am a female myself and have noticed that pretty much every woman who enrolled at my university in physics is going on, or plans to go into the field of astrophysics, myself included.

I am wondering if this is a freak trend at my university (possibly due to the eventual SKA being partially built in my country and state), or if this is common? Are there more women in astrophysics than nuclear physics, for example?

Physics is still a male-dominated field, and I realize how wonderfully hard my department has worked to get an above-average percentage of women into it, but is it easier for us to attract the ladies than other physics fields? Why did I choose astro over other areas? Do we accept when our girls say "astronomy" because it's easy to romanticise, or we think they said "astrology"? Did my fellow students and I watch too much "Stargate SG1" and "Contact" growing up, with lead female astronomers? Are there even any movies/tv shows with lead females in another field of physics?

I'd like to know your thoughts on this, and any trends you have noticed.

 

[symbolipoint]

Only the ladies can answer those questions. They listen to what is said. They look for the written information they want to find. They figure out who to ask about subjects and jobs. They decide what or how they feel and what they want to do, and then they make their choices. You ask, why do the ladies in physics show a trend toward astronomy and astrophysics. Only the individual ladies themselves can answer this.

 

[ShayanJ]

Why did I choose astro over other areas?

This is its climax!
Anyway, I think we should accept that there are some differences between the two genders besides the physical ones.

 

[Algr]

One theory: Women like to go where other women are, so advancement into new areas will tend to clump around (semi-random) subjects and physical locations.

 

[dipole]

Probably because astronomy/astrophysics/cosmology is what is most emphasized in popular science media.

 

[PeroK]

First of all, I'd like to clarify my title by pointing out it is NOT a dodgy pick-up line. I am a female myself and have noticed that pretty much every woman who enrolled at my university in physics is going on, or plans to go into the field of astrophysics, myself included.

I am wondering if this is a freak trend at my university (possibly due to the eventual SKA being partially built in my country and state), or if this is common? Are there more women in astrophysics than nuclear physics, for example?

Physics is still a male-dominated field, and I realize how wonderfully hard my department has worked to get an above-average percentage of women into it, but is it easier for us to attract the ladies than other physics fields? Why did I choose astro over other areas? Do we accept when our girls say "astronomy" because it's easy to romanticise, or we think they said "astrology"? Did my fellow students and I watch too much "Stargate SG1" and "Contact" growing up, with lead female astronomers? Are there even any movies/tv shows with lead females in another field of physics?

I'd like to know your thoughts on this, and any trends you have noticed.

Perhaps the answer is written in the stars?

 

[Evo]

Why did I choose astro over other areas?

You failed to tell us why. Why don't you begin by explaining your choices?

 

[EnSlavingBlair]

Why don't you begin by explaining your choices?

Fair point. I went into astrophysics because of an assignment I did when I was 10 on black holes. I don't remember why I chose black holes (I suspect Stargate SG1), but I remember as I was finding information for the assignment I just thought that nothing in the universe could possibly be more interesting. I loved the idea that we didn't understand what happened within the event horizon, and that our understanding of physics meant that we might never. It caught my imagination and I decided I wanted to be the one to solve the riddle of the black hole. That enthusiasm never died, instead it extended to many other areas of astronomy, cosmology, and high energy astrophysics.

Before I did that assignment I had wanted to be a mathematician, because maths has always been my favourite subject. Astronomy kind of focuses that love of maths into a specific field, I certainly don't feel like I chose astro over maths.

My reasoning for choosing astro seems very specific to me, as does everyones story for their choice. But I have definitely noticed a trend, which may suggest some cultural swing towards women choosing astro, even though for each individual woman, myself included, our choice seems completely unrelated to outside influences. I was just wondering if anyone else had noticed it too and finds it interesting?

Probably because astronomy/astrophysics/cosmology is what is most emphasized in popular science media.

That is also a good point. Is the percentage of women in astro fairly normal, but astro is just a large field of physics? The director for my department is conscious of creating gender equality, maybe because of that, and the higher numbers of people to choose from, there are just more women in my department than average?

Women like to go where other women are

I must admit I am guilty of this. In my search for possible PhD projects, there have been a few sites with photos of the people in the department. I tend not to really want to get involved in a department where there are no women, it is quite off-putting. I have also had other people, both men and women, agree that being the first woman into a department might not be particularly fun, as there is the possibility that everyone has to get used to the idea of gender equality, and some may have to seriously change their world views.

 

[ShayanJ]

Anyway, I think we should accept that there are some differences between the two genders besides the physical ones.

No reaction to this one! Was it a bad thing to say?

 

[zoobyshoe]

In real life I only know one female physicist, and she is a geophysicist.

 

[DiracPool]

I personally don't see any gender barrier to ladies in science around my campus. They're free to do whatever they want. The few female colleagues I work with, and I have to admit they are few, are very professional and driven researchers.

 

[Evo]

I entered a males only field of data way before the internet. Never gave it a second thought. Never had any problems from the men, I pulled my weight and even took over tasks they wouldn't do. I think this male/female drama is a bit overthought.

 

[symbolipoint]

Is the answer complicated or simple? Trend as I have seen, more females in Biology and Chemistry than in Physics or Engineering. Not enough observations on my part to know about how this relates to astrophysics or astronomy.

 

[moriheru]

One theory: Women like to go where other women are, so advancement into new areas will tend to clump around (semi-random) subjects and physical locations.

That makes little sense. The problem lays in the first few women. They can't go by what other women have done, because they are the first, so they will of had a general interest in astrophysics. So your statement only has a restricted range in which it can be true.

 

[moriheru]

You have posted a really dangerous thread nSlavingblair :) . This is going to be one of the most political incorrect threads in the forum ( Don't take me wrong I don't care but it is funny :) )...

 

[spl-083902]

This is its climax!
Anyway, I think we should accept that there are some differences between the two genders besides the physical ones.

No reaction to this one! Was it a bad thing to say?

I don't think there's anything wrong with bringing it up. I think it might seem like a taboo subject just because we are talking about a field that usually is viewed to have a lot of "smart people" in it, so subconsciously people might think you're talking about an intelligence difference when you really said no such thing.

It's probably more just an issue of what we find interesting, and it's no secret that although interests overlap men and women do, for the most part, find different things interesting.
I'm no psychologist or anything, but it could even be something funny like men tending to have more control issues than women and so the idea of being able to predict and control the world around them is more instinctually motivating, leading to a passion for learning physics.

 

[ShayanJ]

I don't think there's anything wrong with bringing it up. I think it might seem like a taboo subject just because we are talking about a field that usually is viewed to have a lot of "smart people" in it, so subconsciously people might think you're talking about an intelligence difference when you really said no such thing.

It's probably more just an issue of what we find interesting, and it's no secret that although interests overlap men and women do, for the most part, find different things interesting.
I'm no psychologist or anything, but it could even be something funny like men tending to have more control issues than women and so the idea of being able to predict and control the world around them is more instinctually motivating, leading to a passion for learning physics.

Oh...yeah. Of course I didn't mean women are not smart enough. I meant something like your explanations.
Its just like physics. Experimental data show some kind of a trend but that's statistical anyway and so there can be an underlying law giving a probability distribution accompanied by some statistical fluctuations. I just mentioned the possibility of the existence of such a theory but said nothing about how it looks like. I'm not a psychologist too!

 

[zoki85]

Teaching kids in school

 

[jz92wjaz]

I have noticed that Astrophysics/Astronomy does seem to attract women more than other Physics fields. I honestly don't know why, though I could venture some guesses.

It seems like Cosmology/Astronomy is one of the most celebrated Physics fields in the media. It makes it readily available to a lot of people who might not consider Physics otherwise. If this plays a substantial role in why women chose Astrophysics, I would theorize that you should also see more minorities in the field, when compared to other Physics fields.

Because more women have been in Astrophysics, teachers and mentors of young children are more likely to know of a female Astrophysicist. Young girls may have better chances of seeing themselves as a future Astrophysicist because they hear about women in the field and identify with them. Some girls are bothered by being the only girl, and it may be that Astrophysics retains more women because there are more women to begin with.

It may also be that boys and girls considering a Physics major are equally interested in Astrophysics, but that boys/men are being subtly pushed into other Physics fields at a higher rate than girls are.

 

[zoki85]

I have noticed that Astrophysics/Astronomy does seem to attract women more than other Physics fields. I honestly don't know why, though I could venture some guesses.

Women are romantic in general. And all those beautiful stars in a mysterious night... Well, you got an idea, they must love it;)

 

[Algr]

Where 'da bright women at?

 

[e.bar.goum]

Astronomy/Astrophysics certainly seems more actively trying to bridge the gender gap than physics is, in my experience. I think women are sensible to tend to go into fields where they are more welcome.

Most of the stuff people are saying about women being more romantic or suited to astro sounds like complete crap to me.

(Woman, physicist, started uni intending to go into astro, now work in physics, but in a astro-adjacent kind of way).

Also, you mentioned you're motivated by the SKA? Are you from Perth? :D

I recall seeing a survey once, that had the gender breakdown for the gender ratio in the different subfields of physics. Naturally, I can't find it now, but IIRC astro was leading, with the exception of cosmology, which was actually the worst. So your experiences are backed up by data.

 

[Danger]

Women are romantic in general. And all those beautiful stars in a mysterious night... Well, you got an idea, they must love it;)

I just now noticed this thread, and was all prepared to post exactly the theory that you did, although in a somewhat less brusque manner. Romanticism might or might not be the proper term, but I have noticed in personal experience that when people are out in a clear area such as camping, women tend to spend a bit more time admiring the stars than the men do. It seems more artistic than romantic to me. I don't think that it's possible to look at them for more than a glance without starting to wonder about what's going on up there. For someone with a scientific mind, that can very well develop into a career path.

edit: I wasn't ignoring you, e.bar.goum; you posted while I was composing and I didn't see it until now.

 

[zoki85]

Well, I'am not sure why they don't like to study electrical engineering. This especially holds for power EE departments. Compared with that, they like to study physics much more! But they decide/end up as high school professors. I think it is not that women are not welcome. They decide on their own. Perhaps they think their familly life will suffer more if they decide to be researchers in some physical/technical sciences? Certainly, that can't be the only reason.

 

[jz92wjaz]

I recently met someone who said her sister dropped out of Engineering when she went to her first classes and saw she was the only girl. I found that most girls in my Electrical Engineering classes identified as tomboys and had a lot in common with the guys. Those who didn't seemed to be more likely to drop out or switch majors.

My experience suggests that men and women tend to end up in fields where they identify with the subject being taught and the people around them.

 

[Monique]

Every time that I see the thread title a song starts playing in my head:

All the physics ladies (all the physics ladies)
All the physics ladies (all the physics ladies)
All the physics ladies (all the physics ladies)
All the physics ladies

Now put your hands up
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

 

[symbolipoint]

Attention is needed on personality traits. Maybe gender influences them but we cannot completely rely on gender to determine everything about a person's personality traits. What will a person do if her (or his) set of personality traits does not fit what society expects the person to do/choose?

 

[Monique]

It seems like Cosmology/Astronomy is one of the most celebrated Physics fields in the media. It makes it readily available to a lot of people who might not consider Physics otherwise.

I think this is an important factor: education and exposure. Toy stores usually have a boy and girl section, but why not buy a StarWars lego set for girls? I think it starts at a young age.

It may also be that boys and girls considering a Physics major are equally interested in Astrophysics, but that boys/men are being subtly pushed into other Physics fields at a higher rate than girls are.

Important point, not often emphasized: why are there so many males in physics and so few in astronomy?

I recently met someone who said her sister dropped out of Engineering when she went to her first classes and saw she was the only girl. I found that most girls in my Electrical Engineering classes identified as tomboys and had a lot in common with the guys. Those who didn't seemed to be more likely to drop out or switch majors.

I can somewhat understand that, I went from Medical Biology (2 male : 20 female) to Biochemistry (20 male : 2 female). It did cross my mind "why are there so many men / few women, am I making the right choice?"

Next week I am going to a workshop "strategics for women", the title makes me cringe like nails being dragged across a blackboard. I hate the "men are from mars, women from venus" and am preparing for a lot of nonsensical stereotypes. Maybe I'll learn something, I'll let you know ;)

 

[Danger]

Every time that I see the thread title a song starts playing in my head:

All the physics ladies (all the physics ladies)
All the physics ladies (all the physics ladies)
All the physics ladies (all the physics ladies)
All the physics ladies

Now put your hands up
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

I hope that what you're hearing in your head doesn't escape to annoy your neighbours. It's somewhat dismaying to see that after all of these years, your singing ability hasn't improved.

Toy stores usually have a boy and girl section

That must be a European thing; we don't have it in Canada. To whatever extent they are arranged at all, it's by age range or genre (movie, game, plushies, etc.). He-Man and Barbie are on the same shelf.
I can't help thinking that a woman who leaves a class because of being outnumbered by men isn't all that interested in the subject or isn't confident in her ability to stand proudly. If that's the case, then she shouldn't pursue that education because she would also not be able to stand in an employment situation that probably reflects the same ratio. It's sexist for sure, but the sexism is on the part of the woman herself.

 

[StatGuy2000]

My question is whether it is in fact the case in general that women are especially well represented in astronomy in terms of undergraduate and graduate students and faculty. Consider the following article by De Welde et. al (2007):

http://www.socwomen.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/fact_12-2007-stem.pdf

Please note the bar graph, which the authors state was based on 2007 data from the NSF on the percentage of degrees earned by women. When I look at astronomy, the percentage of women earning a PhD are roughly comparable to those earning degrees in math & statistics, slightly lower than chemistry or geosciences, significantly higher than physics and computer sciences, and significantly lower than the agricultural and biological sciences. A similar trend can also be observed at the undergraduate level as well.

So from what I can see, while women are better represented in astronomy than in physics overall, women are not especially better represented when compared to other science fields.

 

[Monique]

I hope that what you're hearing in your head doesn't escape to annoy your neighbours. It's somewhat dismaying to see that after all of these years, your singing ability hasn't improved.

Sometimes it does escape my head and then I quickly turn to see if my colleagues are not there, until now it has always escaped their attention :)

That must be a European thing; we don't have it in Canada. To whatever extent they are arranged at all, it's by age range or genre (movie, game, plushies, etc.). He-Man and Barbie are on the same shelf.

It's not very obvious, but definitely there. Don't you get advertisement material like this?

Dishes for girls, microscope for boys:

http://vkphotoprovider2.vk-cdn.nl/photoprovider/artikel/4/16/2/82de241b3c3a74d542ce8f1c7305cf4a/1882562/610x2048/1882562.jpeg

http://vkphotoprovider0.vk-cdn.nl/photoprovider/artikel/9/10/4/f2245b34d75992ebf21a46f6d2108234/1882624/610x2048/1882624.jpeg

I can't help thinking that a woman who leaves a class because of being outnumbered by men isn't all that interested in the subject or isn't confident in her ability to stand proudly. If that's the case, then she shouldn't pursue that education because she would also not be able to stand in an employment situation that probably reflects the same ratio. It's sexist for sure, but the sexism is on the part of the woman herself.

I think it is part of human nature, to seek out those who are similar to you. We should recognize similarity should not be based on male/female roles, but on common interest.

 

[zoki85]

Every time that I see the thread title a song starts playing in my head:

All the physics ladies (all the physics ladies)
All the physics ladies (all the physics ladies)
All the physics ladies (all the physics ladies)
All the physics ladies

Now put your hands up
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

Hehe, admit you were somewhere in the audience singing:

:D

I recently met someone who said her sister dropped out of Engineering when she went to her first classes and saw she was the only girl. I found that most girls in my Electrical Engineering classes identified as tomboys and had a lot in common with the guys. Those who didn't seemed to be more likely to drop out or switch majors.

Sorry to hear that. Interestingly, I noticed those girls who decide to study EE are usually very good students and very good engineers later.

 

[Danger]

Sometimes it does escape my head and then I quickly turn to see if my colleagues are not there, until now it has always escaped their attention :)

Lucky them...

And no, I have absolutely never seen ads like that in my life, either in print or in the store. Those are just stupid.

I think it is part of human nature, to seek out those who are similar to you. We should recognize similarity should not be based on male/female roles, but on common interest.

Agreed, absolutely. But, again it seems as if you are placing the onus on society when in fact the women themselves are shying away. They should just go ahead and pursue whatever they want to. If anyone gives them a problem, they should raise unholy dang with their profs or TA's or the Dean or even the police. Diverting away from something just because you think that it might possibly become uncomfortable seems to me to indicate a lack of commitment. The only thing that I ever was very good at and wanted to do for a living was flying. I got grounded on medical reasons back in '76, but I swear that if I were physically capable of having that career, I would crawl over 10 kilometres of broken glass to achieve it regardless of who wanted me to fail.

 

[Monique]

Hehe, admit you were somewhere in the audience singing:

:D

Yeah, that's me in the background ;)

And no, I have absolutely never seen ads like that in my life, either in print or in the store. Those are just stupid.

How about this one, it shows the demographics of females (vrouwen) and males (mannen) in (health)care. The women are overrepresented in each group, but what does the picture tell you next to the percentages? The male is on the foreground!? in an active position: I am going to help you. The female is standing three steps back and strikes a pose "don't I look pretty in these heels?" Really: if the message is that 94% of the home care workers are female, why isn't the female portrayed as the dominant role (in the foreground)? Sexism is all around, even if you don't catch it at first sight.

http://41.media.tumblr.com/919800891c0969561c953476785d39f2/tumblr_nbsgsn2QGg1s71tbxo1_500.jpg

Agreed, absolutely. But, again it seems as if you are placing the onus on society when in fact the women themselves are shying away. They should just go ahead and pursue whatever they want to. If anyone gives them a problem, they should raise unholy **** with their profs or TA's or the Dean or even the police. Diverting away from something just because you think that it might possibly become uncomfortable seems to me to indicate a lack of commitment. The only thing that I ever was very good at and wanted to do for a living was flying. I got grounded on medical reasons back in '76, but I swear that if I were physically capable of having that career, I would crawl over 10 kilometres of broken glass to achieve it regardless of who wanted me to fail.

You are absolutely right, I continuously fight prejudices.

 

[moriheru]

Did my fellow students and I watch too much "Stargate SG1" and "Contact" growing up, with lead female astronomers? Are there even any movies/tv shows with lead females in another field of physics?

I think you will find many males watch star gate as well so this does not justify the quantity of female astronomers.

 

[Danger]

You are absolutely right, I continuously fight prejudices.

Good on ya'. That's one of the things that I've always admired about you, along with your linguistic expertise. (It always humbled me a bit that as a professional writer with English as my first and only language, I relied upon a Dutch chick for advice. :p)
And no, that next disgusting "poster" that you showed has never appeared within out borders. I know that weed is legal in your country, but you really should try to keep your advertising executives away from it while they're on duty.

 

[zoki85]

But, it looks like Monique isn't a single lady...

 

[256bits]

How about this one, it shows the demographics of females (vrouwen) and males (mannen) in (health)care. The women are overrepresented in each group, but what does the picture tell you next to the percentages? The male is on the foreground!? in an active position: I am going to help you. The female is standing three steps back and strikes a pose "don't I look pretty in these heels?" Really: if the message is that 94% of the home care workers are female, why isn't the female portrayed as the dominant role (in the foreground)? Sexism is all around, even if you don't catch it at first sight.
.

The sexism is easily seen and explained in that picture, but not easily explained away, since if it is to be informative it should be truthful, which it actually is in portraying the projected roles of men and women, but not truthful in the subjective message it gives contrary to the idea of equality of the sexes.

But for the previous "Nurse" and "Man of Steel", is not so obvious. The outfits are "cute", and are marketed, and will sell simply for that reason. Of course, being color coded so that parents will never have to worry if their kid is a boy or girl, or do a physical check if they forget, is an added bonus for the non-thinking parent. Passesby can even tell the sex of the child by the clothing.

"Man of steel" . The boy is to grow up being in charge and control, with the girl following along. The best she can hope to achieve is to date him.Pity the poor boy and girl who don't know there role later on in life, and become confused if they desire something else.

The sexuallity of children is a marketing tool. The marketers prime objective is sales.
Social policy or awareness is the least of their concerns.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/BUSINESS/03/26/abercrombie.bikini.controversy/index.html
as an example of the promotion of sexuallity for young kids.
( You have to wonder who would really buy that kind of stuff )

 

[Danger]

Passesby can even tell the sex of the child by the clothing.

So, it's supposed to be blue for a boy and pink for a girl? I say dress it in purple. If someone has the balls to ask, tell them that it's a hermaphrodite.

 

[Lisa!]

Where did all the physics ladies go?

Everywhere!;)

 

[jack476]

I think it really goes back to the cultural perception of math as being a male interest. Society expects women to be in nurturing/people-oriented careers, and math is something that is often perceived as cold, uncaring, and devoid of emotion. Plus, I think society puts more emphasis on women than on men (especially in young people) to be attractive and personable, math is seen as something for nerds and therefore unappealing. I don't believe in claims that there is some inherent difference in cognitive ability or emotional perception that causes there to be a gender imbalance.

 

[Danger]

I don't believe in claims that there is some inherent difference in cognitive ability or emotional perception that causes there to be a gender imbalance.

There is a difference in most instances, but neither one is superior to the other. It's something like the differences between left-handed people (artistic) and right-handed ones (pragmatic) or between gays and straights. The brain structure is not the same. Men in general have a relatively smaller corpus callosum (specifically the midsagittal part thereof) than women, and those of gay men and lesbians are midway between. That structure is the communications link between the right and left hemispheres. Not unrelated is the fact that left-handed people generally have a dominant right hemisphere and right-handed ones are left-brained. I don't know what my brain looks like, but I tend to share thought processes with both men and women because I'm ambidextrous and don't have a dominant hemisphere.

 

[Simon Bridge]

Reveal: I originally got into physics as a way to meet women.

When I was 1st year undergrad, women physics students outnumbered the men about 3:2 ... higher in bio and less in chemistry.
In Engineering, my original major, the ratio F:M was more like 1:3. And they tended to be jocks to my nerd.

In my 1st post-grad year, women outnumbered the men about 3:1, they'd stuck us all on one big room and the intellectual environment was supercharged; but all the men went to work as physicists and only a couple of the women ... much to the frustration of the profs.

Guys who came up through undergrad with a woman lab partner know that women in sciences do tend to think about the subject differently - and come to value that difference. Science thrives on diversity of thought so there is a genuine drive, beyond politics, to get more diverse backgrounds, where these are identified as real differences, into NZ University science schools.

Online - many women find the extra attention they get for being a woman somewhat erksome so are reluctant to publicly present their sex.
I suspect that the members with "girls names" may get more "help" than others, but have done no formal studies.

I've taught sen.phys. in an all-girls Catholic secondary school - when it came time for a class project, all the girls chose astrophysics.
The main reason why was that it was not well covered in the rest of the course. One of the assessment points in the project was an essay - going new-agey, I had the students personify some aspect of what they studied and write a story about what it felt to be that way. i.e. what does it feel like to be a supernova reminant? ... encorporating the physics they learned natch.
Turned out to be the most popular question ...

So I'm going to have to second the "girls are more romantic" ... but I'd add that girls are socialized to have a more romantic outlook. Current secondary education in NZ focusses in getting boys to get more relaxed about expressing their feeling as part of the overall empowerment process.

BTW: always do the essay question - it is the most leniently marked.

 

[UncertaintyAjay]

But surely the romance of physics in general is what attracts anyone to pursue a career in it in the first place right? I mean even for men, there is something endearing about physics, about the beauty inherent in its laws and equations .

 

[Danger]

But surely the romance of physics in general is what attracts anyone to pursue a career in it in the first place right?

I just wanted to blow stuff up...

 

[UncertaintyAjay]

Well there's that too, but then wouldn't you have been better off with chemistry

 

[Danger]

Well there's that too, but then wouldn't you have been better off with chemistry

Nope; I was thinking nuclear right from the beginning.

 

[UncertaintyAjay]

Right

 

[tzimie]

BTW there is not so bad in ITm we have 50/50 on average, 60-70% women in support, and 25-30% in R&D.

 

[zoki85]

Hey, this PF featured thread is even more *clickable* now due to nice thumbnail pic (I guess)