Calculators Which calculator? Hp 50G vs Ti89 Titanium

[jkotecha]

The Best of Both Worlds ...

I've had both HP50 and TI89. I did a lot of testing. Operations, Performance, Ease of Use. The best of both worlds is to run a modified OS on the TI89 that gives you all features as RPN. You get the extra performance of the TI89 (yes, it is faster!). And with the RPN interface data entry with the TI89 is much, much easier than the HP50.

 

[neo6108]

RPN or Algebraic Notation

Thought I'd throw in my two cents worth...

Calculators first started appearing back when I was attending Junior High School. My first calculator was a 4-banger purchased for $70 and all it did was add, subtract, multiply and divide and was larger in size then the HP-50g. I think it had a % function too but that was it. The first calculator how-to books taught one how to obtain the square root of a number just using those basic functions. My next calculator was a more advanced Rockwell scientific and then, a programmable TI 49 or something. I was in heaven! Then I purchased a used TI 51 or 52 that allowed one to pass a magnetic card through to load a program into the calculator or store a program onto the card. The TI 48 got me through High School but after starting College, I purchased an HP-15c Scientific Programmable and in minutes after learning RPN, I was sold. I'm now semi-retired and have just sold that HP-15C for around 3 times its original purchased price. I used it almost daily and it still functions perfectly as it makes its trip to India halfway around the world to a young math student. I've just replaced it with an HP 35s. The 35s allows RPN or Algebraic notation and after playing with the algebraic for a while, I found myself becoming totally frustrated and switching back to RPN.

So, this is a story about a guy who grew up using algebraic notation for years and leaving it behind forever in favor of RPN.

Enough said...

;)

P.S. That HP-15c helped make me quite a few $$$ throughout the years.
Thank you Hewlett Packard...

 

[neo6108]

HP vs. TI vs. ?

I would like to present a fairly simple programming exercise that involves the Pythagorean theorem h = sqrt{x^2 + y^2}. H being equal to the length of the hypotenuse, x and y are the lengths of the other two sides. I will start everyone off with let's say 1000 points and make deductions based on total program lines, incorrect answers, and the number of keystrokes made external to the program itself. I will also deduct points for the order in which your results are returned to me. The first person returning their results gets no deductions. 2nd in loses 1 point, 3rd in loses 2 points and ect. I wrote a program on my HP-35s in 5 to 10 minutes and it took me around an hour to acquire the complete x,y,h data set. Your response back to me will be an email including:

1) your name (handle) used here in this forum
2) the make and model of the calculator you are using
3) the complete program you created for your particular calculator (numbered line by line)
4) a brief explanation of keystrokes external to the program needed to execute it
5) and last the compete listing of the data set

If there are no objections by the owner of this forum, then go ahead and send an email to me at rvdude@frontiernet.net stating that you want in. I will wait one week to give everyone a chance to enter who's interested and then say at exactly 6PM Arizona time on Monday the 25th of February, I will post the complete instructions of this exercise on this forum and it will end in one week or immediately after receiving the the last of all the entries. When you complete the exercise, email the results back to me at the address above, I will grade them and send all who've entered a copy of everyone's results. (should be interesting)

Good luck to all those who choose to participate and may the force be with you! (had to throw that one in, and I've dated myself...)

 

[kjsnavely]

Ah, possibly the greatest question ever posed...TI-89T or HP50G.

I just happen to own both! Well, I am a physics major, and I was taking the typical Univ. Phys II course (Basic E/M, some thermo) and had decided it was long time I replaced my TI-84S with something a little more meatier. In high school, my friend had owned a 48GII (Actually, a series of three, as they broke and were [rapidly I might add!] replaced by HP) for two years and swore by the thing. I had grabbed it from him once, but had no experience with RPN or these strange fangled soft menus. I was in lust.

For two years the thought of an HP fermented in my head. When starting Physics II, I went out around town looking for a 50G, though I was largely undecided between the it and the 89T. I was moving soon and online purchases were out of the question. (Moving across the nation) I ended up happily picking up the 89T. I was elated! This thing was great! It was superior in entry, display, power, and everyday usage than the 84S by miles. I used it every day. TIBasic was easy to use, though a little different than on the 84S. (TI-Basic was my first programming language, and thus TI has forever a place in my heart. I now write C++/C code for money. C# for fun!) I think TI-Basic is a nice entry into programming if at a high-school or even college level so desired.

As I said I did always regret not getting an HP, and so in the second half of my sophomore year I decided to shell out the last of my student loan to purchase one. I happened upon it by chance, during a bored walkthrough of BestBuy...and there it was, looking me in the face. $20 overpriced, but glorious. I bought it.

I've had it for a month now, and am NEVER going to look back from RPN. When forced to use a friends ALG calc I find myself confused and frustrated for a minute, before I remember that I have to use parenthesis! Soft menu's make checking an integral a one button process, or taking factorials over and over, or seeing all my variables easily and accessing them quickly.

Why the HP50G is better than the TI89T:

The biggest advantage in my opinion is RPN. Writing out very complicated or tedious equations is almost foolproof. You can't know until you experience it.

Another nice thing over the 89T is I find the functions and superfunctions on keys are MUCH easier to read than the 89T's. On the 50G, the colors are white, yellow, and orange on a black background. The 89T uses light green, light blue, and silver on a grey background. What the hell TI!? I've had this thing for a year and a half and still have to search for blue superfunctions and silver letters. The green is only used about ten times. (Which, to me, seems wasted.) The buttons on the HP are stiffer and feel sturdier than the 89T's, though the 89T's are not really flawed.

The screen on the HP has better contrast and I find it much easier to read at an angle (like on a table next to your textbook) than the TI's. The TI tends to get garbled when viewing from much of an angle.

A freaking SD card slot! 2GB of memory! Whoa!

You will feel like the world's most awesome powernerd with this sexy device. It looks bad ass.

Some points for the TI:

One thing I have noticed is that when you do make a mistake in RPN mode, say 8 calculations back, you are screwed. To clarify: Nothing is on the stack, everything has been operated upon leaving you with a number. Then you realize, crap, that should have been e^-x not e^x. On my TI, you just flip up the history, copy it, and change x to -x. ( (-x) people!) Enter and BOOM! done. On the HP you pretty much just start the calculation over. There may be a way around this, as I am still learning the features in RPN mode. If anyone can do this, I would like to know how.

There is a huge and constantly growing library of applications for the TI89T, and sadly the library for the HP50G is much smaller. I have not yet had the pleasure of programming in SysRPL (One of the 50G languages.) but I shall do so this weekend! (I desire a turn-based wargame for the 50G.)

With the 50G, you get a leather case. It's really quite nice! However, smashed between some textbooks, buttons can be pressed, by chance turning your calculator on, wasting batteries. TI's have a spartan but effective hard plastic case. Importantly though, this has only happened once, when my calculator ended up on the bottom of a lot of weight. It has never happened just sitting in my backpack running around campus.

Some maybe-not-so moot points:

Who gives a crap if it takes 4 seconds vs. 1 second to do anything. Sure, if the TI took a minute to do something that takes an instance on the HP I would nag about it, but that is almost no difference at all. This could only really happen when running a program or using the CAS for a tricky problem--Speaking of CAS, however, the integrals and derivatives I've taken on both lead me to believe the CAS of both calc's is very strong. I believe the HP's is much easier to use with the VX + soft menu setup. Operations are one button away! I don't know which is really stronger because I do all my Calc/DiffEq the the best calculator...good ol' No. 2. Having Laplace Transforms is a HUUUUUUUUGE advantage for the HP though. Seriously. You never need a table again.

Some people might not care, but in the end I felt like my TI is this really great tool, which I can crank things out on, etc. The HP feels "cooler" and feels like an extension of myself. RPN is very similar to how one thinks when solving a problem. It's physical and software layout makes it seem more like a serious machine than the TI.In the end, if you just want a calculator for class that is great and easy to use with tons of support, go with the TI89T. It's serious about what it does.

If you are like me, someone who maybe likes calculators a little too much...who gets permission to take advanced classes, likes to think about problems, and attends colloquiums, then slap on a giant grin and go out and buy that sweet calculating machine known as the HP50G.

Either calculator is awesome. Ask a professor if you can use his HP48, (Because, that is what he will have.) and see how you like it. You can borrow the TI89T from your friendly social science major. You decide.

 

[Count Iblis]

http://xahlee.org/prog/hp28s/hp28s.html"

 

[Count Iblis]

Picture of my calculator

 

[md5fungi]

just ordered my HP 50g a couple days ago!

am i a total nerd if I've been using the emulator obsessively and can't wait for it to arrive?

hope it arrives during spring break. i think that doubles my nerdiness quotient right there...

 

[stephen92]

Quadratic regression on HP 50g Calc help!

I went against the will of my school and just bought a new HP 50g Calculator. I Love RPN! However to my horror it does notseem to do quadratic regression. Now my teacher is pressuring me into using one of her TI's. I really, really, can't stand TI's since i have gotten used to rpn. Does any7one know how to make the thing do quadratic regression?

 

[Count Iblis]

I went against the will of my school and just bought a new HP 50g Calculator. I Love RPN! However to my horror it does notseem to do quadratic regression. Now my teacher is pressuring me into using one of her TI's. I really, really, can't stand TI's since i have gotten used to rpn. Does any7one know how to make the thing do quadratic regression?

Can you do linear regression with multiple variables? I.e.

y = a0 + a1 x1 + a2 x2 + ...

Then what you do is you just put x1 = x, x2 = x^2 where x is the x-datapoint.

If you can only do linear regresson with one variable, then you could just write a simple program to do the regression.

 

[only_huce]

Calculators aren't very useful in linear algebra. At least they won't let you use them at some universities. It depends on how your course is. The one which my friend is taking right now is mostly theoretical so calculators have little to no use.

As for calculas II make life easy on yourself and just use a TI-84, you don't need to use such advanced calculators for a lower level math course. Also from personal experience, I know that people who used TI-89's for calculas II paid for it later on, because they relied too heavily on their calculators and didn't focus on learning the material as well.

But if it comes down to it I've heard you can't go wrong with a TI-89, this is from an engineering perspective however, it all depends on what field of work your math course is oriented towards.

 

[binzing]

What would be a good price and place to get a TI 89 at. The stores here all charge around $150 and we are looking for cheaper.

 

[only_huce]

I think Sam's Club or Costco sells them for like $10 less but generally they're usually around the $150 area. You can thank the TI's monopoly on graphing calculators for that.

 

[bfr]

You might want to consider the newer http://www.ti-nspire.com/tools/nspire/index.html for about the same price as a TI-89 Titanium. The TI-Nspire CAS doesn't really have good support for programming and lacks in a few areas (I forgot, but I think it might not have good support for 3-D and maybe a few other things, but it is constantly improving).

In terms of hardware specifications, it totally blows away any other graphing calculators from any company. It has 36MB of usable memory, a 320 x 240 grayscale screen, and an ARM processor with a speed of around 150Mhz (this is still unsure, though).

 

[Count Iblis]

I have a better idea. Why not buy one of these handheld computers as bfr suggested. And then simply connect to your pc at home via the internet (using e.g. VNC). Install Mathematica on your pc and off you go!

 

[Prologue]

What would be a good price and place to get a TI 89 at. The stores here all charge around $150 and we are looking for cheaper.

Check ebay, I got an older style TI89, of course just the same calculator as the new one minus extra memory, for 60$ shipped (buy it now).

 

[binzing]

Umm how about the fact that this is for my dad, who doesn't have a computer at home, let alone internet.
Prologue, sounds good, we were looking there.

 

[aetherguy881]

I'd like to say, thank you for creating this thread and keeping the debate going. After reading this, I've decided to go for the 50g. One of my friends has been bugging for me to get it, and I've kind of felt a little lost with the 89, it doesn't seem as what I had expected when I've been on an 83+ since 6th grade.

 

[kjsnavely]

Hello all, checking about my hp50g as sophomore year winds down.

Absolute best buy I've made all year. I am in love with my calculator. RPN is worth the money alone. You have no idea how frustrated I get when I have to use a non-RPN calculator. I have yet to find many things the calc cannot do. The menu's are natural, and the CAS is very strong. The manual you get with the calc is pretty slim, but a plethora of information is available online. Graphing capability is excellent. I'm finding new things to use it for every day. The only time I touched my TI's in the past semester was to get batteries for my TV remote.

Buy the HP.

 

[Undergrad-ME]

I own the ti-89, the HP 50G, and the 48Gx. I was a TI fan before but since I converted to RPN, I never looked back. One thing I missed about the ti-89 was the historial display since it allows you to check what you keyed in ( time saving for checking answers during a test).
One thing I don't like about the 50G is the power consumption, I have to change my bat's every 3 weeks...

 

[aerosmithcoop]

Which is better for physics i really don't care that RPN is a feature (no offense i do like it its just not that important to me) all i care about is the mathematical features
so which is better for physics (obviously including trig)and algebra
hope i get a response

 

[Integral]

Which is better for physics i really don't care that RPN is a feature (no offense i do like it its just not that important to me) all i care about is the mathematical features
so which is better for physics (obviously including trig)and algebra
hope i get a response

Go for the cheapest one.

 

[Count Iblis]

Which is better for physics i really don't care that RPN is a feature (no offense i do like it its just not that important to me) all i care about is the mathematical features
so which is better for physics (obviously including trig)and algebra
hope i get a response

I would go for the HP. In physics you often have to program your own user functions and that's far easier with the HP calculator.

 

[tlee8520]

some questions concerning the hp or ti.

Hello,
I am looking at upgrading my calculator (currently have ti-85...yes, I know it is old) and have some questions hopefully someone can answer concerning the comparisions. (1) It seems I purchased my 85 right before ti came out with the 86 etc. so I was wondering how long the ti-89titanium and hp 50G have been out and if an updated model is in the works in the near future and might be worth a short wait? (2) I really like having the F or Menu keys and the way they are incorporated in the 85 and was wondering if the 89T and the HP50G kind of follow the same setup? I noticed both key pads have this but have never had the opportunity to try either out very much? This brings up another question, it seems the 85/86 keypad or menus do not follow the 84 etc. very closely...or in my experience when trying to help others with these models. Does the 89 keypad/layout follow either or is it a new approach all together? (3) I am considering going after a MS in EE so the idea of having laplace transforms/fourier transforms/FFT's/DFFT's etc. built into a calculator seems great so any thoughts/opinions on this in either calculator? (4) I've written several programs over the years for my 85 and have lost them when changing the AAA batteries and not realizing the small backup battery needed replacing too. I noticed the 50G has a memory card slot and am assuming programs, tables, etc. can be saved to this with no memory loss issues? Does the 89 have something similar or memory that doesn't get lost when my memory forgets to change the small backup battery periodically? thanks

 

[sceadu]

Hello,
I am looking at upgrading my calculator (currently have ti-85...yes, I know it is old) and have some questions hopefully someone can answer concerning the comparisions. (1) It seems I purchased my 85 right before ti came out with the 86 etc. so I was wondering how long the ti-89titanium and hp 50G have been out and if an updated model is in the works in the near future and might be worth a short wait? (2) I really like having the F or Menu keys and the way they are incorporated in the 85 and was wondering if the 89T and the HP50G kind of follow the same setup? I noticed both key pads have this but have never had the opportunity to try either out very much? This brings up another question, it seems the 85/86 keypad or menus do not follow the 84 etc. very closely...or in my experience when trying to help others with these models. Does the 89 keypad/layout follow either or is it a new approach all together? (3) I am considering going after a MS in EE so the idea of having laplace transforms/fourier transforms/FFT's/DFFT's etc. built into a calculator seems great so any thoughts/opinions on this in either calculator? (4) I've written several programs over the years for my 85 and have lost them when changing the AAA batteries and not realizing the small backup battery needed replacing too. I noticed the 50G has a memory card slot and am assuming programs, tables, etc. can be saved to this with no memory loss issues? Does the 89 have something similar or memory that doesn't get lost when my memory forgets to change the small backup battery periodically? thanks

The TI-89 (Ti) came out in 2004, and the HP-50g came out in 2006, I think. Both are incremental upgrades to previous models, so I don't know if you want to consider these two as being completely new. Texas Instruments has already come out with what you might consider a new model, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-Nspire" . HP has no new offerings, and I don't think either company has anything in the pipeline (but I really don't know).

As far as the menu key behavior is concerned, the HP-50g is much closer to what you're familiar with (the TI-89 is completely different). With the 50g, you have the option to change a setting (search for "softmenus") that will go from "drop-down menus" (e.g. what the TI-89 has) to "softmenus" (what the TI-86 has). With the 89, you have to get http://paxm.org/symbulator/download/rpn.html" in order to mimic the menu style of the TI-86, so if you're considering an 89, you might want to factor in the cost of getting a USB cable. As far as the menu structure goes, the TI-89 is, again, very different than the TI-86 (so much so that the HP-50g is more similar to the TI-86 than the TI-89 is, in my opinion). The only way you can access math functions on the 89 is in the drop-down menus ("Algebra" and "Calculus"), and hitting 2ND-5 to bring up the MATH root menu (..or bringing up the catalog as a last resort). These menus behave very much like hierarchical menus, where you have to leave one submenu in order to enter another. If you really need to, you can customize the drop-down menus with an additional custom menu, but the behavior is the same. On the HP-50g, you have keys bound to different submenus (like with the TI-86), so you can flit from menu to menu much faster if you have chosen to use "softmenus" instead of the "drop-down menus."

The HP-50g has Laplace transforms, and the FFT as part of the calculator's ROM. For other things, you're going to have to download something from the internet or roll your own. The TI-89 doesn't include any transforms but you can get them from the internet (e.g. http://www.technicalc.org/bbhatt/", or elsewhere). Again, you'll need a USB cable to be able to get them onto your calculator (for the TI-89 I think they run around $25?.. they're included with the HP-50g). The HP-50g does indeed have an SD card slot that you can use to store any kind of data without worrying about memory loss. I believe it can address upto 1 gig of memory. For the TI-89 you can archive variables (programs, text, etc.) and I think this will move them out of RAM and into the Flash portion of the memory, and they won't be erased once you remove the batteries.

By the way, if you're going to do EE stuff, you may want to look at http://paxm.org/symbulator/download/sq.html".

 

[vociferous]

I really liked the TI-86, a lot. I still have mine, and I think it is one of the best calculators without a CAS.

The HP-50 and TI-89 are both good, capable calculators.

Going by the specs, the HP-50 is far superior, but the reality of the situation is that, for normal operations, they are about the same speed, since the HP-50 uses emulation and clocks-down the processor. Most of the extra hardware features of the HP-50, you are probably not going to put use.

The mathematical functions of the HP-50 also seem superior, but, and I stress this, quite a bit more difficult to use. The TI also has the advantage of a huge library of user functions and programs, much bigger than the HP. Also, many programs for the HP are implemented as libraries, which cannot be loaded from the SD card, so some of the storage advantage is negated.

My general impression is that, if you are going to use the calculator for a long time for advanced mathematics and science, are willing to put a lot of time into learning to use the calculator, and are pretty efficient with computer-science, then the HP-50 is probably your best bet, because it is more powerful.

If you are looking to use it for a few classes and not put too much time into learning how to use the calculator, then the TI-89, with its pull-down menus and easy to use functions is better.

 

[sceadu]

Yeah, I like to think of it as the same kind of comparison as *nix vs. Windows: bigger learning curve and bigger payoff vs. easy to use and quick to learn.

 

[vociferous]

From what I read, the Derive CAS software that the TI is based on is pretty weak. The CAS software that the HP is based on is a little better (it can solve a few more integrals, for instance). Neither of them are stellar CAS's like Mathematica. The TI has a lot of non math/science programs, but I want a calculator to do calculations, not to play games or manage my schedule, and the HP seems to have the advantage when it comes down to the meat and potatoes of what a calculator was designed to do.

But neither of these "high end" calculators are really all that great when you think about what computers are capable of (and what a handheld calculator could be capable of) today.

 

[Count Iblis]

Hmmm, Mathematica is also very slow compared to running a custom C++ program. The only reason why you want to use Mathematica is because the high level language allows you to save an enormous amount or programming time.

Trying to run Mathematica on a hand held computer would be a nightmare. You would be far better of using a handheld with internet access and then using VCN to remotely access your PC at the office or home.

 

[vociferous]

Hmmm, Mathematica is also very slow compared to running a custom C++ program. The only reason why you want to use Mathematica is because the high level language allows you to save an enormous amount or programming time.

Trying to run Mathematica on a hand held computer would be a nightmare. You would be far better of using a handheld with internet access and then using VCN to remotely access your PC at the office or home.

The Mathematica kernel was originally designed to run on some pretty weak PC's, much weaker than the chips that are available in today's handheld PC's.

If I remember, the ARM processor in the HP-50 is capable of running at something like 150 Mhz. Mathematica 4.0 ran fairly well on x86 chips with much slower clock speeds, and there are cheap, small chips capable of running at much higher clock speeds than that.

I guess my point was, for a few hundred dollars, with today's technology and chip prices, someone could make a calculator with a high resolution color screen, lithium ion batter, and a fast enough processor and sufficient ram to run a linux micro-kernel and some serious mathematical and scientific software. Of course, a $500 laptop would be maybe twice as much (and many times more powerful), but with the number of handheld calculators being bought every year, I would think that there would at least be some market for such a device.

 

[Ben Niehoff]

I've been using HP calculators for 15 years (wow...). I first learned RPN on a friend's HP calculator in 6th grade, and now I pretty much think in RPN. I find ordinary calculators (especially TI models) extremely cumbersome to use.

The main benefit of HP calculators to me, however, was not the RPN, but the stack. When you enter data on an HP calculator, it gets popped onto a stack; and when that data is used as the argument to some function, it is popped off the stack (and whatever data the function returns is popped onto the stack again). The display shows the top 4-5 levels of the stack, so you can see what you have previously entered, and it all flows rather nicely. For example, suppose you want to calculate 5\cdot(23+17) - 2\cdot(14-8). You don't have to do any "RPN rearranging" in your head; just use the stack:

First enter 5. The screen shows:

4.    
3.    
2.    
1.    5

Now enter 23:

4.    
3.    
2.    5
1.    23

Then 17:

4.    
3.    5
2.    23
1.    17

Now hit '+':

4.    
3.    
2.    5
1.    40

Now hit '*':

4.    
3.    
2.    
1.    200

Then enter 2:

4.    
3.    
2.    200
1.    2

Enter 14:

4.    
3.    200
2.    2
1.    14

Enter 8:

4.    200
3.    2
2.    14
1.    8

Hit '-':

4.    
3.    200
2.    2
1.    6

Hit '*':

4.    
3.    
2.    200
1.    12

Hit '-':

4.    
3.    
2.    
1.    188

Done. Once you get the hang of it, a calculation like that takes only a few seconds. Of course, you have to remember what you were doing. But you do save yourself from having to type any parentheses, so this can be very quick. If you were unsure of yourself, you could always type

4.    
3.    
2.    
1.    '5*(23+17)-2*(14-8)'

And hit either "EVAL" or "->NUM" (but it does actually take longer to write the formula out this way). So in reality, HP gives you the best of both worlds: RPN and algebraic input. But either way, all your prior results stay on the stack, and this is the real power and efficiency of HP calculators. (Yes, I know that TI calculators also give you a way to refer to prior results, but it requires typing.)

HP also has graphical equation display, and an equation input tool that let's you enter and view things like

\int_a^b f(x)\,dx = \frac{1}{4!}\sum_{k=1}^{\infty}\frac{x^k}{7^x}

in all their glory. So do TI calculators, so that's not a huge difference.


Honestly, however, I hardly ever find myself using a calculator at all anymore. I generally either work things out on paper, or turn to Maple or Excel when things get more involved.

 

[jordsan]

Just a reminder about this comparison (one of the most level and impartial that I have ever seen):

http://www.laurowski.de/hp49/ti89hp49_comparison/ti89-hp49.htm

 

[qntty]

Where can I get a rom to use for emulation of the hp 50g with emu48? Do I have to use the OS files on HPs website? If so, what do I do to produce a rom?

 

[Adrian4English]

Taking the now infamous equation, '-2^4', the minus sign at the beginning is monadic and must mean that the numeral 2 is negative. The HP calculators have, for as long as I can remember (35 years or more), used the +/- key to negate a number. The - key is an operator and is diadic (that is it needs two numbers).
Going further, all numbers (both integer and real) exist on infinite continua. As such all positive numbers should be prefixed by the monadic + sign, so the above equation should be rewritten as '-2^+4'. I have just checked this on my 50g and both this and '-2^4' give an incorrect answer of -16. If you write '(-2)^4' or '(-2)^+4)' you get the correct answer of 16 (this is the same in both Algorithmic mode and RPN writing the equations within single quote marks and pressing EVAL).
To me the beauty of RPN is that when you evaluate the equation -2 4 ^ is that there is no confusion in that -2 is a negative number and you can see it on the stack as such, then you see 4 on the stack and then you apply the diadic ^ operator and get the correct answer.
I'm not really too sure what to make of all this. Is the way the equation is interpreted correct or not.
As a final thought try writing the quation '4-2<+/->' and it will change to '4+2' before you evaluate it.
But as I said in my origional post I have been using RPN for 35 years.

I like the 50g because it is a very good list processor (one does this a lot in (Chemical) engineering) and not just an equation solver which the TI 89 seems to be. You have to look at the HP 49 Advanced User Guide to find out just how good it is at this.

 

[jordsan]

The result of '-2^4' in algebraic notation is utterly dependent on the precedence and associativity of the system evaluating it. Without all the parenthesis needed to completely disambiguate the expression the result can be either -16 or +16. Neither result is right nor wrong.

Most calculators, like most programming languages, use very similar definitions for their precedence and associativity rules, but (and this is a big but) most of them differ in minor ways that only become apparent when somebody gets a result that is "incorrect". Stating that -16 is incorrect (or vice versa) is equivalent to stating that driving on the left side of the road in the UK is wrong (or the opposite in the US).

There is no reason to assume an algebraic expression not explicitly parenthesized should evaluate equally in two different systems, be it calculators or programming languages (as any programmer worth its salt already knows).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations#Mathematical_precedence (take a look at note #1 especially).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associativity#Non-associativity

For the best presentation of the problem that I have found yet please visit:
http://www.macnauchtan.com/pub/precedence.html"

Lotus 1-2-3 gives -16 while Excel claims the answer to be 16. Which is right?
Therein lies the beauty of RPL and prefix/postfix languages.

 

[jordsan]

Discussed in alt.algebra.help FAQ (short and sweet):
http://aah.ryan-usa.com/node27.html"

 

[vociferous]

Technically, a computer system can evaluate the order of operations in any manner it sees fit, but I think that -2^2=-4 is a more true to the algebraic and computational order of operations.

Order of operations dictates that exponents are evaluated before sums and differences in algrebra, and most computer systems respect this.

For instance, when I plug -2^2 into my HP-50, my TI-86, and Mathematica, they all give me -4. This answer is the most consistent with the order of operations.

 

[jaschandler]

The HP 50G runs RPN but you can also turn it off.

RPN is natural and flows with the way we think.

If you had to solve 4(2+3)= on the TI you must enter the program with the () and that is not how you do it in your head.

If you were to solve by band or in your head you would solve 2+3 than multiply by 4 that is exactly how you do it in RPN. RPN follows your normal thought process, the TI process takes you away from the normal thought process.

Those who use RPN swear by it because it makes sense to do math that way. Those who use TI swear by it because they don't understand RPN.

Once you try and get used to RPN you won't want to do it the other way.

 

[Adrian4English]

I can only concurr with jaschandler. The older HP calculators, from the HP35 onwards, had a stack (x, y, z and t) and the machines only displayed the 'x' and the user had to remember what was in the 'y, z and t'. This made life very confusing. Did pressing 'ClX' just clear the x display to zero or did it drop the stack? With the advent of multi line displays in the HP 48 series one could see what was happening to the stack and there was no confusion possible.
The HP50g is a natural progrssion with its ability to mix and match the stack with numbers and algebraics. Simple mathematics is still simple mathematics as jaschandler describes.
But HP have added so much more with list processing.
Just try {1 2 3 4} 2 * and you will get the answer {2 4 6 8}.

 

[jtbell]

I've been thinking for a while about getting a new calculator. I've used HPs for over 30 years, starting with (I think) an HP-21 about the time I started graduate school, and continuing with a couple of HP-11C's. I still use the second 11C at home. So RPN input feels natural to me. However, all my students use TIs because our math department favors them, so that's what I use at work. I had a TI-83 Plus but I lost it, so I'm back to an ancient TI-81 right now.

I'll probably end up getting both a TI-84 Plus or a TI-89 Titanium (so I can help students use theirs), and an HP-50g because in my heart I really prefer HP. :!)

 

[jtbell]

Hmmm... the http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/SoftwareDescription.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&prodTypeId=215348&prodSeriesId=3235173&prodNameId=3235174&swEnvOID=228&swLang=8&mode=2&taskId=135&swItem=ca-14082-8 doesn't seem to be available for Mac OS X, only for various flavors of Windows. Is this likely to be a serious limitation for a Mac user like me?

At some point I'll probably install Windows on my new Mac Pro anyway, but I'd rather not have to do it just for my calculator.

 

[vociferous]

An I the only one who is upset that HP still has not supplies a 64 bit windows driver for its 50g? If all you have is XP64 or Vista 64, you are not going to be able to connect it with the USB cable until HP releases the appropriate drivers.

Vista has been out for some time now and it is ridiculous that the proper driver is not available for this calculator.

The only upside is that the calculator comes with an SD card reader, so you can use that to transfer files.

 

[jtbell]

I use SD cards in my camera, and I always transfer pictures to my computer using a card reader. So if using a card to move stuff between the 50g and my Mac accomplishes the same thing that the software would, that's fine with me.

 

[coryanderson]

I feel compelled to ask this in response to the -2^4 question...If -2^4=-16 than is it safe to say that the square root of -1 = -1? example...-1^.5= -1 x 1^.5? Wow that's against everything that I've learned. Interesting though. I understand what the argument is but I would say that if -2 is a quantity than you wouldn't factor it before doing the exponent. So (-2)^4...Without the Syntax error...

 

[recklesspyro1]

I feel compelled to ask this in response to the -2^4 question...If -2^4=-16 than is it safe to say that the square root of -1 = -1? example...-1^.5= -1 x 1^.5? Wow that's against everything that I've learned. Interesting though. I understand what the argument is but I would say that if -2 is a quantity than you wouldn't factor it before doing the exponent. So (-2)^4...Without the Syntax error..."

-1^0.5 is not the square root of -1. The square root of -1=(-1)^0.5 and not -1^0.5 because -1^0.5 is not equal to (-1)^0.5. The square root of -1 or the square root of negative one means that we are taking the term negative one and finding the square root of that number. -1^0.5 means we are taking the square root of 1 and then taking the negative of that number.

 

[mister2]

HP.

I have never owned or tried a TI.

I am a bit of a different user. I write custom RPN programs to determine all kinds of trig based lengths for framing wooden structures.

RPN and the stack have provided a good living for me and my family...being a techno-framer keeps me a cut above the rest.

HP just needs to offer a job-site friendly armored case, or ruggedized version...that would be a 10 out of 10 for sure.

 

[Shajnush Amir]

After reading this thread I decided to get a 50g but I have one last question in mind before I go out and buy the most important tool of my life.
My question is can the 50g solve equations in terms of variables? Does it show step by step solution like 49g?

 

[Shajnush Amir]

HP calculators and RPN

I live in Bangladesh. Casio runs a monopoly business here. Everyone uses Casio. I WAS a Casio fan till yesterday.
I got a HP 32sII from my uncle two years ago, unfortunately he forgot to pack the manual when he came(he lives in US). So without the manual (I didnt have net connection, so couldn't download it) I got frustrated after trying to do arithmatic in algebric input system (32 + 12) and put it in my desk drawer. Even after getting the hard copy of the manual 2-3 months later I didnt bother to try it again. Today I just realized that it was one of the worst thing I ever did. Thanks to all of you HP and RPN supporters of this thread I got interested in RPN and took my 32sII out. After trying it for a few hours (with the help of the manual) I totally lost interest in Casio and any other non-RPN calcs.
I am never picking up my Casios again.
If I had known how to use RPN during my O levels I could have finished my math exams at least half an hour earlier.
HP calcs arent available here. Hell, I will be laughed at if I said HP makes calculators at the electronics shop.
I am going to ask my uncle to buy a 50g for me.
He is coming in a month or so.
I just can't wait to get my hands at a HP 50g.

 

[duydaniel]

I live in Bangladesh. Casio runs a monopoly business here. Everyone uses Casio. I WAS a Casio fan till yesterday.
I got a HP 32sII from my uncle two years ago, unfortunately he forgot to pack the manual when he came(he lives in US). So without the manual (I didnt have net connection, so couldn't download it) I got frustrated after trying to do arithmatic in algebric input system (32 + 12) and put it in my desk drawer. Even after getting the hard copy of the manual 2-3 months later I didnt bother to try it again. Today I just realized that it was one of the worst thing I ever did. Thanks to all of you HP and RPN supporters of this thread I got interested in RPN and took my 32sII out. After trying it for a few hours (with the help of the manual) I totally lost interest in Casio and any other non-RPN calcs.
I am never picking up my Casios again.
If I had known how to use RPN during my O levels I could have finished my math exams at least half an hour earlier.
HP calcs arent available here. Hell, I will be laughed at if I said HP makes calculators at the electronics shop.
I am going to ask my uncle to buy a 50g for me.
He is coming in a month or so.
I just can't wait to get my hands at a HP 50g.

Hi, nice to hear that. Actually, here is the few things you may need to consider when purchasing an HP 50g.
+ You may need a external AC power supply for your HP 50g. You can get one for cheap at hpcalc.org
+ Download the latest ROM from HP website to upgrade the calc
+ Use rechargeable batteries
+ Download additional functions (or write them yourself) to complete its power.
HP 50g can calculate 99999^999 and give your exact result without scientific notation.

 

[Dembadon]

I am going for a B.Sc. in EE.

Is the 50g overkill? Would it be a better investment to purchase a 35s, as I would likely not be able to use a 50g on an exam?

I'd rather become familiar with the device I am actually going to be using. I'd hate to spend $150.00 on something that I won't be able to use on the exams.

-Robert

 

[Adrian4English]

The 50g is a very powerful beast, bridging the gap between calculators and computers, although it is still technically a calculator. One simply has to look at the range of software available for it and the 49g+.
Is it suitable for students in an exam situation? In my humble opinion, probably not. If you couple the 50g/49g+ with an SD card you could prepare the answers to all probable questions; so let me qualify my previous statement - from a teacher/examiner perspective no, for a student yes.
(if you look at the contents of my 50g without the SD card it appears a standard machine with no programs/data files. Put the SD card in and there are hundreds of applictions including one to mark and grade my students and detect cheating!)
The other matter to consider is the learning curve - I've had my 50g for nearly three years now and I am still finding new things it can do.
Personally at your level I would use a relatively simple machine, preferably an HP for the RPN which has a large display and an "unlimited" stack (not the old style 4 level stack). I am not so familiar with all HP's models that I can quote model numbers to you.
Regards, Adrian Evans