Music Why Can't This Person Stay Away from Online Forums?

[gravenewworld]

People are so stupid these days...
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1

 

[Pengwuino]

Man, talk about living through your kids

 

[Math Is Hard]

I heard about this part of the story this morning..

Like many children across the country, Lamb and Lynx decided to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina — the white ones. The girls' donations were handed out by a White Nationalist organization who also left a pamphlet promoting their group and beliefs — some of the intended recipients were more than a little displeased. After a day of trying, the supplies ended up with few takers, dumped at a local shop that sells Confederate memorabilia.

wow.. just..I'm just stunned by the whole thing...

 

[Evo]

Nauseating.

 

[russ_watters]

Child abuse laws should be extended to cover this.

 

[Townsend]

Child abuse laws should be extended to cover this.

As bad as it might be...preventing it is much worse. We don't need moral police...

 

[Pengwuino]

As bad as it might be...that is much worse. We don't need moral police...

I think we do. Anyone watch equilibrium... what a kickass movie. Everyone gets shot and there's sooooooooooo much slow motion. All because of morality police.

 

[Townsend]

I think we do. Anyone watch equilibrium... what a kickass movie. Everyone gets shot and there's sooooooooooo much slow motion. All because of morality police.

I guess if it means we get to see people doing slow motion moves in real time then it's ok.

 

[Evo]

Child abuse laws should be extended to cover this.

I think that people that home school need to pass psychiatric evaluations first and should be closely monitored. I guess that violates all sorts of things, but some really sick people home school so that their children are brainwashed.

 

[Townsend]

I think that people that home school need to pass psychiatric evaluations first and should be closely monitored. I guess that violates all sorts of things, but some really sick people home school so that their children are brainwashed.

Kids can be brainwashed in mass numbers in a public school.

 

[Pengwuino]

Kids can be brainwashed in mass numbers in a public school.

I consider 4 years of english and art being more important then science in school a form of brainwashing.

 

[DeadWolfe]

I wonder if they do a cover of "I went back in time and voted for Hitler" by AC

 

[Townsend]

Who cares about a couple of idiot girls? ...I bet they end up doing interracial porn when they turn 18...

 

[Pengwuino]

Does this mean the Olsen twins are nazis that should be hung?

Experts say no, but I say yes.

 

[Townsend]

Does this mean the Olsen twins are nazis that should be hung?

Experts say no, but I say yes.

What are you talking about?

 

[Pengwuino]

They like the olsen twins

 

[Townsend]

They like the olsen twins

Who is 'they'? And why does that mean they should be hung?

You do realize that those two are not the Olsen twins, right?

 

[JamesU]

he's saying that the olsen twind are two idiots who don't deserve to be fameous...I think...

 

[Pengwuino]

Who is 'they'? And why does that mean they should be hung?
You do realize that those two are not the Olsen twins, right?

Yes but those two nazi blonde freaks like the olsen twins. By the transitive property, the olsen twins are nazis and should be hung. Algebra rules!

 

[Townsend]

Yes but those two nazi blonde freaks like the olsen twins. By the transitive property, the olsen twins are nazis and should be hung. Algebra rules!

I heard the Olsen twins have a big crush on you...so I suppose we need to get another rope for you as well.

 

[JamesU]

I heard the Olsen twins have a big crush on you...so I suppose we need to get another rope for you as well.

smurf too?

 

[Pengwuino]

I heard the Olsen twins have a big crush on you...so I suppose we need to get another rope for you as well.

There legal right?

 

[Townsend]

smurf too?

Definitely Smurf too.

 

[russ_watters]

As bad as it might be...preventing it is much worse. We don't need moral police...

Laws are based on morality: we already have a morality police.

Some people tend to see this as a first amendment issue. It isn't. The first amendment protects your right to speak your mind. It does not protect the forcing of those beliefs on others.

 

[Townsend]

Laws are based on morality: we already have a morality police.
Some people tend to see this as a first amendment issue. It isn't. The first amendment protects your right to speak your mind. It does not protect the forcing of those beliefs on others.

What you’re saying is that society should tell people what they can and cannot teach their children according to societies morals. You do not think that is the same as forcing morals onto people. Because it is forcing beliefs onto others and that and that is wrong.

It's just like the forced boarding schools we had for Indians where the mantra was "Kill the Indian, save the man."

And we don't have morality police that go around and tell people what is and what is not moral.

 

[devil-fire]

hate the haters for being so hateful.

and good god... making a law to prevent ideologies from being spread? the story must have grabbed your short & curlies something fierce.

nazis can be nazis all they want so long as they don't hurt anyone. it would be wrong for me to throw a brick at them because i think they advocate ignorance and blind hate.

 

[Evo]

Ignorance and hatred breed violence.

 

[Cosmo16]

Ignorance and hatred breed violence.

True, and morality police would be a form of hatred. (I don't know what side you are taking here, so I am either agreeing wiht you or refuting you)

 

[Cosmo16]

Child abuse laws should be extended to cover this.

Usually I agree with you, but right now, I can't agree with you.

When we start to restrict ideologies and political theories that we do not agree with then we are no better then the people we are restricting. We are saying that people do not deserve to have their on ideas.

 

[Evo]

True, and morality police would be a form of hatred. (I don't know what side you are taking here, so I am either agreeing wiht you or refuting you)

I don't agree with the morality police either for the same reasons.

 

[sid_galt]

Some people tend to see this as a first amendment issue. It isn't. The first amendment protects your right to speak your mind. It does not protect the forcing of those beliefs on others.

The Nazi twins are not forcing their beliefs on others.

 

[Evo]

The Nazi twins are not forcing their beliefs on others.

He was referring to what the mother said.

 

[Smurf]

I think that people that home school need to pass psychiatric evaluations first and should be closely monitored. I guess that violates all sorts of things, but some really sick people home school so that their children are brainwashed.

No. People are brought up racist all the time. Just because the media did a thing on these two because doesn't mean we should restrict rights. The reason the media chose this story was to provoke that kind of shock in you in the first place.

 

[Evo]

No. People are brought up racist all the time. Just because the media did a thing on these two because doesn't mean we should restrict rights. The reason the media chose this story was to provoke that kind of shock in you in the first place.

No, I felt this way after those two religious home schooling murders. The first mom said God told her to bash her children's heads in with rocks and the second mom said God told her to drown her kids. They home schooled their kids so they wouldn't be exposed to evil.

 

[Gokul43201]

What you’re saying is that society should tell people what they can and cannot teach their children according to societies morals. You do not think that is the same as forcing morals onto people. Because it is forcing beliefs onto others and that and that is wrong.

Most times, I'd agree. With things like this, I'm not sure yet.

You're protecting the right of the mother to teach her kids what she pleases. Who protects the rights of the kids to a safe upbringing? Can you say this isn't different from child abuse? Or should it be okay for parents to abuse kids as long as it's their own kids ?

 

[Townsend]

You're protecting the right of the mother to teach her kids what she pleases. Who protects the rights of the kids to a safe upbringing? Can you say this isn't different from child abuse? Or should it be okay for parents to abuse kids as long as it's their own kids ?

It's really quite simple...if you believe that only one set of morals is correct for everyone then it's fine to inforce those morals. Otherwise it is not fine to enforce those morals.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

hung?

Hanged. Let 'em sing. If you don't, you end up with a baby/bathwater ratio problem.

 

[russ_watters]

It's really quite simple...if you believe that only one set of morals is correct for everyone then it's fine to inforce those morals. Otherwise it is not fine to enforce those morals.

We do have such a code: it's called the US Code and the courts have ruled many times in the past that religious free exercise does not cover violating laws that do not have an expressed religious purpose. Ie, the laws against murder were not put in place to limit a specific religious practice, so they do not violate religious free exercise. So the two women whom Evo cited cannot use religious free exercise as a defense against the murder of their children.

Child abuse works the same way when it comes to medical care: there are a number of sects that do not believe in getting medical care, but the courts always rule that it is child abuse (or murder) to allow your child to die because of a religious belief against medical treatment.

So my thesis is that there is no fundamental difference between the above cases and the case we're talking about: it's just different types and degrees of abuse.

edit: Let's look at this from the other angle: if a law were passed that extended child abuse laws to include the teaching of self-destructive beliefs, what would be the argument for the courts to strike-down that law? Ie, what specific article, amendment (clause), etc. in the Constitution would that violate? I already showed how it does not violate the free-exercise clause, but this argument has to be approached from the other way around.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yes but those two nazi blonde freaks like the olsen twins. By the transitive property, the olsen twins are nazis and should be hung. Algebra rules!

Pengwuino, there's a place for poorly thought out, snide, trash humor:
http://www.discussanything.com/forums/index.php?
You'd be so much happier over there.

 

[Townsend]

We do have such a code: it's called the US Code and the courts have ruled many times in the past that religious free exercise does not cover violating laws that do not have an expressed religious purpose. Ie, the laws against murder were not put in place to limit a specific religious practice, so they do not violate religious free exercise. So the two women whom Evo cited cannot use religious free exercise as a defense against the murder of their children.

This has nothing to do with religion. i.e. religion != morality

Child abuse works the same way when it comes to medical care: there are a number of sects that do not believe in getting medical care, but the courts always rule that it is child abuse (or murder) to allow your child to die because of a religious belief against medical treatment.

Child abuse DOES NOT work the same way...in the example you are saying that people cannot use their religion to abuse their children. That is fine...but keep in mind that religion has nothing to do with morals and morals have nothing to do with child abuse.

So my thesis is that there is no fundamental difference between the above cases and the case we're talking about: it's just different types and degrees of abuse.

You CANNOT abuse a person by teaching them morals. The definition of abuse does not include teaching people what is good or bad and things of that nature. It might be morally wrong to teach my kid to be racist but it is NOT physically or mentally abusive to do so.

edit: Let's look at this from the other angle: if a law were passed that extended child abuse laws to include the teaching of self-destructive beliefs, what would be the argument for the courts to strike-down that law?
Ie, what specific article, amendment (clause), etc. in the Constitution would that violate?

It seems to me that there is no constitutional problem with passing this kind of law...but who really cares if the law could be passed when it should not be passed?

You are assuming that there is one absolute moral perspective and that the government knows what the correct one is. However what is considered to be "self-destructive" is a variable...it is not constant. It is possible that what is currently considered by most to be "self-destructive" will in the future be the norm and not acting that way will be considered "self-destructive."

Do you really feel like you know what is absolutely morally correct? Do you feel that if a large enough group of people all decide that something is morally correct that it some how makes it morally correct?

I think it be would be funny if such a law passed and then your kids were taken away because you tried to teach them that capitalism is a good thing and it was decided by a majority that such ideas are "self-destructive." Then they could be force to learn and appreciate Marxism and you get labeled a child abuser and sit in jail...

Society is not always right and while we can be fairly sure that what these two girls are being taught is morally wrong we cannot be so sure in all cases.

 

[Moonbear]

Perhaps the better approach is to view their social isolation and restriction from a proper education as the child abuse aspect, rather than the morals their parents are teaching. Why is it that we have laws requiring students receive a mandatory education until age 16 (give or take depending on the state), but then a loophole that allows parents to deprive their children of this education via homeschooling? If a child is sent to a public or private school, their teachers need to reach a certain degree of competency in the subjects they teach and have a certification indicating this. Why is the same competency not required of those who homeschool? Perhaps any parent who wishes to homeschool their children needs to have a college degree and obtain a license after comprehensive testing to ensure they are competent in the subjects they will be teaching to the children before they are allowed to remove them from the schools. This won't prevent parents from teaching hatred to their children in their spare time, but it would at least ensure these children have a chance to experience and learn about other people and views in addition to what their parents are teaching. It would also prevent ignorant people from dooming their children to ignorance as well.

 

[russ_watters]

This has nothing to do with religion. i.e. religion != morality.

Fine - I'm trying to figure out your basis for your argument. What freedom are we talking about, then?

Child abuse DOES NOT work the same way...in the example you are saying that people cannot use their religion to abuse their children. That is fine...but keep in mind that religion has nothing to do with morals and morals have nothing to do with child abuse.

You CANNOT abuse a person by teaching them morals. The definition of abuse does not include teaching people what is good or bad and things of that nature. It might be morally wrong to teach my kid to be racist but it is NOT physically or mentally abusive to do so.

This, apparently, is where we differ. Do you believe that teaching these girls abject racism will harm them in any way? Ie, do you not think that this will inhibit their ability to be functional members of society? If these girls act on these beliefs and commit crimes, they would go to jail. Who'se fault would that be?

I think it should be clear that by teaching these kids racism, the parents are harming them psychologically. Psychological abuse is, absolutely, a justification for removing a child from their parents - it's done.

It seems to me that there is no constitutional problem with passing this kind of law...but who really cares if the law could be passed when it should not be passed?

Since I'm a pretty big fan of the Constitution (see Ivan's thread on what beliefs are most important to you), it's important to me: I think the two questions are one in the same. I think this issue is already covered by the constitution.

You are assuming that there is one absolute moral perspective...

I do, but that has nothing to do with this discussion because:

...and that the government knows what the correct one is.

No. All that matters is that the government has a code of morality (laws) and by living here, everyone has agreed to abide by it.

What you just said is a big reason why people don't accept moral absolutism (see new thread in philosophy), but it is a strawman argument - a misunderstanding of the issue.

However what is considered to be "self-destructive" is a variable...it is not constant. It is possible that what is currently considered by most to be "self-destructive" will in the future be the norm and not acting that way will be considered "self-destructive."

In order for what these girls are learning to not be self-destructive, this country must some-day be fully-white and fully-racist. Besides being pretty much impossible, that most certainly goes against US law and the Constitution.

Do you really feel like you know what is absolutely morally correct? Do you feel that if a large enough group of people all decide that something is morally correct that it some how makes it morally correct?

No, and no. See above: all that matters is that we live in a country that has a set of laws, so we must obey those laws.

I think it be would be funny if such a law passed and then your kids were taken away because you tried to teach them that capitalism is a good thing and it was decided by a majority that such ideas are "self-destructive." Then they could be force to learn and appreciate Marxism and you get labeled a child abuser and sit in jail...

How realistic do you consider that, in a capitalistic society? Don't fool yourself into thinking there is a slippery-slope here. Your hypothetical example is of a reality that doesn't currently exist, but these two girls are a done-deal. Their future is already decided and it isn't a good one.

Society is not always right...

My argument does not require society to always be right. One of the beauties of the Constitution is it's ability to adapt.

...and while we can be fairly sure that what these two girls are being taught is morally wrong we cannot be so sure in all cases.

Don't go broadening the scope because you are worried about a slippery-slope. Such issues are decided on a case-by-case basis, so there is no need for such a concern. If these girls are being harmed, then the law needs to protect them. That's all I'm after here - a means to protect them, not an absolute commandment by which arbitrary decisions are made.

 

[russ_watters]

Perhaps the better approach is to view their social isolation and restriction from a proper education as the child abuse aspect, rather than the morals their parents are teaching.

That's what I was getting at - I guess I wasn't really all that clear. It isn't the holding of ideas that's an intriniscly a bad thing, it's how holding those ideas will affect their behavior and their interpersonal relations. Teaching these girls these ideas will cause these girls to take actions that are self-destructive. That's psychological damage/abuse.

Why is it that we have laws requiring students receive a mandatory education until age 16 (give or take depending on the state), but then a loophole that allows parents to deprive their children of this education via homeschooling? If a child is sent to a public or private school, their teachers need to reach a certain degree of competency in the subjects they teach and have a certification indicating this. Why is the same competency not required of those who homeschool? Perhaps any parent who wishes to homeschool their children needs to have a college degree and obtain a license after comprehensive testing to ensure they are competent in the subjects they will be teaching to the children before they are allowed to remove them from the schools.

I guess it's because homeschooling is outcome based. As long as the kids are passing their standardized tests, their parents are judged to be doing a good enough job. I'm a little ambivalent about that. On the one hand, outcome is what we're after - on the other, there is so much that you learn in school beyond just what is on the tests.

More abstractly, I'm not really sure what the justification for allowing homeschooling to exist is. Anyone know?

 

[Townsend]

Fine - I'm trying to figure out your basis for your argument. What freedom are we talking about, then?

It’s simple….Under NO circumstances should anyone be forced to capitulate with the moral values of society. The only time I think a law is just is if it protects the rights of people from a person or person who would violate a person rights.

What a parent teaches their kids is entirely based on their moral values what do not have to comply with societies moral values. Period!

You are the one who brought up the constitution and I pretty much could careless about it, as far as this argument is concerned anyways. My entire argument is based on the fact these people could be entirely correct in their beliefs since there is no way to prove them wrong. I don’t think the governments job is to go around making judgment calls about what is morally right and wrong when since day one the government has been immoral.

I tell you what russ….when you find me a government that doesn’t make mistakes then I will believe they should be making moral judgment calls….until then I see making a moral judgment call on the part of the government that forces it citizens to be a certain way as no better than the worst governments in history.

If the day ever comes when a parent dose not have the right to teach their children how they see fit I am out of here….I have no desire to be a part of something that is so completely anti-libertarian.

The only reason I even like the US is because it is suppose to protect the freedoms of the individual from the tyranny of the majority…(you know, the kind of people who think it is ok to force moral values on to other people) . That is what James Madison was fighting for when he drafted the constitution. I guess you could say the constitution had a good run but when people start using it to defend actions that are the very things the constitution was written to defend against, then perhaps it is time to start over.

 

[Gokul43201]

You CANNOT abuse a person by teaching them morals. The definition of abuse does not include teaching people what is good or bad and things of that nature. It might be morally wrong to teach my kid to be racist but it is NOT physically or mentally abusive to do so.

And if you teach your kids that it is morally reprehensible to do anything but bang your head against a wall a hundred times a day ?

 

[Townsend]

Teaching these girls these ideas will cause these girls to take actions that are self-destructive. That's psychological damage/abuse.

Can you prove that for a fact? Just so you know I accept NO moral premises...all your premises must be based on facts that are clear and obvious to everyone.

Just so you know you will run into a big problem trying to establish what is considered "self-destructive." Because that really is a subject thing.

The point being that you shouldn't state opinions as facts.

And I am almost certain that psychological damage does not mean that people who have different beliefs from everyone else. A person can be a 100% normal and healthy racist with no psychological problems.

 

[Townsend]

And if you teach your kids that it is morally reprehensible to do anything but bang your head against a wall a hundred times a day ?

What if? What is your point? Some people are strange...who are you to judge them?

 

[Gokul43201]

And by the age of 16, when the kids have all kinds of disorders from simply doing what they're taught, who is responsible for that ?

I could take this a step further a propose a situation of a parent instilling in a child that the morally right thing to do is commit suicide at the age of 18. That okay too ?

 

[Townsend]

And by the age of 16, when the kids have all kinds of disorders from simply doing what they're taught, who is responsible for that ?

I could take this a step further a propose a situation of a parent instilling in a child that the morally right thing to do is commit suicide at the age of 15. That okay too ?

There is a clear difference between teaching your children what to believe and teaching your children to do something that is physically harmful. Ideas like Nazism, racism, bigotry, etc. are all subjective beliefs. Now, teaching someone to do something that is physically harmful can be measured and made objective. Much like mental abuse can be clearly defined. If you can show me that you can make things like racism objective then I could perhaps see this type of thing as being a form of abuse. However, you cannot and neither can anyone else because it is NOT objective and I do not accept arbitrary standards based on current norms as a reason for taking away a person’s liberties.

 

[Entropy]

I said it once and I'll say it again: People should have to get a license to have children. If you have a kid and don't have a license the penalty is castration.