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Drakkith
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Sorry, what, exactly is this thread about? Ancient planting times based on seasons? I don't doubt that seasons were used in ancient times, lunar, solar, etc... they still are, but I see no citations that math was necessary for knowing these seasons back then. I need acceptable sources.Isaacsname said:Ok, great, I appreciate it
The extent of Mesopotamiam metrology is fairly well established fact in the world of academia, it forms the basis of the systems we keep time with { we still use their systems of angles and we still divide land in the US according to these ancient methods }, using several different calendars along with various intercalations. A few cursory minutes on wikipedia would have revealed that
All calculations were done on the hands because the hands were the first calculators, and thus with 10 fingers you would count off arcseconds of the Moon's movement per each finger, this was all based on the math of a circle { This is what tripped up Newton for 14 years until Hooke sent the letter about the parabola } They used the circle and just added corrections { intercalations, this was all that necessary }
It's an obscure subject and crosses into some topics that are not necessarily pure math { linguistics, semantics }, which is why it's tricky to discuss { and if anybody wants to discuss it further on a different thread or in private, just let me know }, however that said, I'm only interested in the basis of the development of mathematics born out of the necessity to feed a population and most importantly here; " sustain population growth "
My statement that " if you cannot math you cannot eat " is entirely accurate in light of what happens when you try to keep accurate cycles without intercalations
Even being off by a tiny amount with your measurements leads to huge errors after just a few years, and this I can assure you would lead to disastrous crop failures
I also have an extensive background with horticulture, botany, permaculture, farming ' gardening in general, orchards, vineyards, mycology, etc { part of my education as a chef } and I could demonstrate how disastrous this would be for each " growing zone " on Earth if you did not keep accurate records of the cycles for farming purposes
You would be way off for planting times, harvests, insect pollination cycles, animal breeding cycles, migrations, etc, all these things are following the seasons and thus the movement of the Sun, Earth and Moon
So, that is my argument in a nutshell
Thanks, Isaac
Evo said:Sorry, what, exactly is this thread about? Ancient planting times based on seasons? I don't doubt that seasons were used in ancient times, lunar, solar, etc... they still are, but I see no citations that math was necessary for knowing these seasons back then. I need acceptable sources.
Thank you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stickA tally (or tally stick) was an ancient memory aid device used to record and document numbers, quantities, or even messages. Tally sticks first appear as animal bones carved with notches, in the Upper Paleolithic; a notable example is the Ishango Bone. Historical reference is made by Pliny the Elder (AD 23–79) about the best wood to use for tallies, and by Marco Polo (1254–1324) who mentions the use of the tally in China. Tallies have been used for numerous purposes such as messaging and scheduling, and especially in financial and legal transactions, to the point of being currency.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_numeralsNumerals originally developed from the use of tally marks as an counting aid, with the oldest examples being about 35,000 to 25,000 years old.
Development
Counting aids like tally marks become more sophisticated in the Near Eastern Neolithic, developing into various types of proto-writing. The Cuneiform script develops out of proto-writing associated with keeping track of goods during theChalcolithic.
http://www.ancient.eu/sumer/After the Ubaid Period (c. 5000-4100 BCE) came the Uruk Period (4100-2900 BCE) in which cities began to emerge across the landscape and the city of Uruk rose in prominence. Though the period is named for the `first city’ of Uruk, Eridu was considered the first city by the Sumerians themselves, as previously noted. http://www.ancient.eu/trade/ was firmly established with foreign lands at this time and writing evolved from pictograms to cuneiform script. It is thought that trade was the main motivator in the development of writing as there now had to be some means for accurate, long-distance, communication between the merchants of Sumer and their agents abroad.
What does that prove, except that they were more vulnerable to nature. In any case, how can anyone be sure of how they actually worked things out? Without a detailed written record, we couldn't tell what proto mathematical tricks they were using.zoobyshoe said:They had no math beyond tally sticks and no calendars.
A university Mathematics program must have curriculum portions dedicated to Mathematics History. Anything from pre-history would only be speculation unless anthropological or archaeological evidence was found and studied, and maybe also speculated upon.sophiecentaur said:What does that prove, except that they were more vulnerable to nature. In any case, how can anyone be sure of how they actually worked things out? Without a detailed written record, we couldn't tell what proto mathematical tricks they were using.
I still don't see how the detailed origins of Maths are necessarily relevant to how and why it's used now and in the future.
Hornbein said:Noam Chomsky observes that all peoples can learn math, whether or not their ancestors used it. So this ability is not he result of evolution. He thinks that it is simply a variation on the innate ability to learn a language.
DiracPool said:But the most recent significant jump occurred about 6000 years ago, which is what gave us the ability to do math and talk.
Isaacsname said:Did mathematics and symbolic and natural languages arise from the necessity of keeping track of astronomical cycles ? [...] Thanks, just trying to settle a debate I'm having with some friends
micromass said:Are you saying we couldn't talk more than 6000 years ago?
micromass said:And how do you explain the mathematics in america? Did the Mayas/Incas/Indians/whatever miraculously go through the same evolutionary jump?
DiracPool said:Again, the proof of the pudding is in the taste. The burden of proof is not on me to justify my argument for a model that explains why humans could not do math nor speak nor produce written language prior to 6000 years ago...the burden of proof is for someone to explain to me a model of why humans could do these things and we have no archaeological record of it.
Does it really make sense that humans had some latent capacity for written language, cuneiform, the ability to construct cities, etc. etc. for thousands of years, and it just so happened that one day somebody woke out of a stupor and said, hey guys, let's build a city and organize our economics with some symbolic structure and scribblings?
micromass said:No. I am saying that 6000 years ago it was impossible for Americans and other cultures to come into contact. It just couldn't happen. But both developed math skills.
micromass said:That's where evidence points to. The importance of math came from organizing a big economy. The question therefore is why people started building big cities suddenly.
DiracPool said:Ok, so it was impossible..So how did they both develop math skills at (nearly) the same time? I'm not fact checking this btw, right now, I'll just accept your argument.
DiracPool said:Ok, so let me rephrase this in light of my argument. You are saying here that the modern (mathematical, etc.) capacities of the human mind were latent (for how long?) prior to 6000 years ago, and that perhaps it was a critical mass of some sort of humans gathering in a community that sparked a cognitive revolution that led to the building of cities and beyond?
micromass said:So it is likely that some people 10000 years ago suddenly found an amazing math notation system, but then it was disregarded by everybody else because it was not useful to them.
micromass said:It only became useful once you needed to work with big numbers and do difficult calculations.
DiracPool said:Likely? That's abject conjecture of the most serious kind. This kind of thinking posits that we, as humans, were sitting around in tribes for thousands of years, while, at the same time having an "amazing math notation system," that for some reason "Thog" the caveman wasn't able to "shop" successfully to the rest of the community or the other tribes. Does that fit with the quality of opportunism, greed, and entreprenurialism that runs rampant in society since 6000 years ago?
See, this is where I disagree with you. I think these things become useful once we have the capacity to do them. There's a great tradition of the arts that sees artistic expression coming from deep inner need to express for the sake of expression rather than for some practical need. It's even been said that Newton used to calculate logs out to extreme decimals for no practical purpose other than he liked to calculate.
micromass said:And then only one civilization (Greeks) ever made the jump towards deductive, axiomatic math.
DiracPool said:The burden of proof is not on me to justify my argument for a model that explains why humans could not do math nor speak nor produce written language prior to 6000 years ago.
Hornbein said:Perhaps, but India invented axiomatic logic. It came to England via George Everest, who was a close associate of George Boole.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=ancient hindu texts formal logicmicromass said:When? Independent of the ancient Greeks?
No, It proves it isn't necessary to have calendars to have successful agriculture.sophiecentaur said:What does that prove, except that they were more vulnerable to nature.
The only thing you need for agricultural timing, it should be obvious, is simple memory of the course of the seasons for a year, and the knowledge that that fairly short cycle repeats endlessly. It isn't necessary to know a specific date. It isn't necessary to know there are 365 days in a year. All you need to know is things like, you have about a 4 1/2 moon window to grow a plant that takes about 2 1/2 moons to mature. That sort of rule of thumb.In any case, how can anyone be sure of how they actually worked things out? Without a detailed written record, we couldn't tell what proto mathematical tricks they were using.
micromass said:"Advanced" mathematical notation can be found in any big city throughout history. So I think it is reasonably that the existence of the big cities gave a big impetus towards doing math.
I agree with this. Math was needed to build cities and empires and was explored for those purposes, and the converse is true; the existence of cities and empires allowed for the dedicated mathematician, the architect, the accountant, the astrologer, etc. In more primitive societies everyone has to be able to do everything such that no one gets really expert at anything the way city dwellers can.micromass said:It only became useful once you needed to work with big numbers and do difficult calculations. Those things are needed in big cities and empires.
You linked a book? It just mentions positions of constellations for planting times? I already agreed with that, but I don't see any reference to math in your post.micromass said:It is well known. I already linked a book earlier in the thread that discusses this.
I'm not upset, our rules stipulate acceptable sources must be cited, that was brought up by micromass and then mentor drakkith said so right before you posted again without sources.Isaacsname said:Ok, ok, don't get all upset, just hold on a second, nobody even asked me for sources yet and you're jumping my case. If you wanted sources you should just ask