Why doesn't ice in Saturn's ring sublime away?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the stability of water ice in Saturn's rings, questioning why it does not sublime away despite the extreme cold temperatures in space. Participants explore various factors influencing the vapor pressure of water ice and the potential mechanisms for mass replenishment of the rings.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the vapor pressure of water ice at -170 degrees Celsius is extremely low, suggesting that ice can remain stable over long periods.
  • Others point out that water molecules and hydroxyl ions have been observed escaping from the rings, indicating that there is a very small vapor pressure present.
  • One participant raises the question of how the mass of the ice chunks is being replenished if they are losing molecules, suggesting that they may be relatively young in astronomical terms.
  • Another participant mentions that larger chunks of ice lose mass more slowly than smaller ones due to their higher volume-to-area ratio, which could allow them to last for billions of years.
  • It is proposed that the rings could be remnants of a destroyed icy moon and that at least one of Saturn's moons is emitting water vapor that may contribute to replenishing the rings.
  • Some participants discuss the concept of the "snow line" or "frost line" as a relevant factor in understanding the stability of ice in the rings.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the age of Saturn's rings, with some suggesting they are relatively young (less than a billion years) while others propose they could be hundreds of millions to billions of years old. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the mechanisms of mass replenishment and the implications of observed vapor loss.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes uncertainties about the exact vapor pressure of water ice under the conditions present in Saturn's rings and the assumptions regarding the age and stability of the rings. The potential for mass replenishment remains a point of contention.

KenJackson
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Brian Cox on Wonders of the Solar System (episode: Order Out of Chaos) on the Science Channel says the rings of Saturn are made up of chunks of water ice.

Water ice? In space?

I would expect a chunk of water ice in space would experience a near zero vapor pressure. Wouldn't it? And if so, why wouldn't all those chunks have sublimated long ago?
 
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It's cold there. What's the vapor pressure of water at -170?
 
Vanadium 50 said:
It's cold there. What's the vapor pressure of water at -170?

So low that water ice is stable over the age of the solar system.
 
The other point I forgot is that water molecules and/or hydroxyl ions have been observed coming off the rings, so they do have a very tiny vapor pressure.
 
Google for "snow line" (AKA "frost line").
 
qraal said:
...water molecules and/or hydroxyl ions have been observed coming off the rings, so they do have a very tiny vapor pressure.

If the chunks of ice are loosing molecules and ions, they are loosing mass. So either the mass is being replaced or they are very young in astronomical terms.

How is the mass being replaced, or where did it recently come from?
 
KenJackson said:
If the chunks of ice are loosing molecules and ions, they are loosing mass. So either the mass is being replaced or they are very young in astronomical terms.

How is the mass being replaced, or where did it recently come from?

Large chunks lose it slower than small due to their higher volume/area ratio. Slow enough loss means the chunks can last billions of years.
 
All we know for certain is that the rings are more than 400 years old. However, they are probably hundreds of millions of years old, possibly billions.

How long they last is a quantitative question, and it depends on the vapor pressure of ice, as well as the rate of redposition: if a water molecule sublimes and then condenses back onto a different piece of the ring system the equilibrium can be stable. But the vapor pressure of water is really, really low. Water ice forms a significant portion of the outer moons, and you don't see them evaporating.
 
Saturns rings are probably fairly recent [< billion years old]. They are believed to be remnants of an icy moon - possibly destroyed by tidal forces or an impact event. It is also known that at least one of Saturn's moons is emitting water vapor that may be replenishing the rings. There are also numerous small moons in the vicinity that have the potential to replenish the rings via collisions or tidal effects.
 

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