Why is A(1-y²) Negative When y² < 1 in Van der Pol Equation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of the damping term in the Van der Pol equation, specifically why the term A(1-y²) is considered negative when y² < 1. Participants explore the implications of this behavior on oscillations of different amplitudes and the concept of positive and negative damping.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that when y² < 1, A(1-y²) is negative, which is described as a damping term, but expresses confusion about how it can be negative when it seems to become positive.
  • Another participant points out that the sign of A is crucial in determining the behavior of the term A(1-y²).
  • A later reply introduces a comparison with the damped oscillator equation, suggesting that if |y| < 1, the damping term is negative, leading to an increase in amplitude, while if |y| > 1, the damping term is positive, resulting in decay.
  • Participants note that small amplitude oscillations will increase in amplitude, while larger oscillations will be damped out, but the reasoning behind the sign of the damping term remains contested.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of the damping term A(1-y²) and its implications for oscillations. There is no consensus on the confusion regarding its sign and the resulting effects on the system.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the dependence on the sign of A and the conditions under which the damping term is analyzed, indicating that assumptions about the values of y and A are critical to understanding the behavior of the system.

shivajikobardan
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Homework Statement
positive and negative damping in van der pol equation-simulation and modeling
Relevant Equations
Van der pol equation
The van der pol non-linear equation is given as-:

y''=A(1-y²)y'-By

y=amplitude

The analysis given by the book is this-:

When y²<1
i.e when y is small
A(1-y²) is negative.
A(1-y²) is called damping term.

I don't understand how is it negative? It obviously becomes positive in this case.

Sth similar is done for when y²>1.
The final conclusion is-:
Thus, small amplitude oscillations will build up and large amplitude oscillations will be damped out.
i.e when y is small=>there should be no damping as shown in what I'm confused with. (If I did according to me, then I'd be getting positive value i.e more damping).
 
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shivajikobardan said:
The analysis given by the book
which book?
shivajikobardan said:
Homework Statement:: positive and negative damping in van der pol equation-simulation and modeling
Relevant Equations:: Van der pol equation

When y²<1
i.e when y is small
A(1-y²) is negative.
depends on sign of A of course
 
drmalawi said:
which book?
i just googled van der pol equation in google books. almost all of them say the same(any resource says the same).
drmalawi said:
depends on sign of A of course
 
Consider ## \ddot y -\mu (1-y^2 ) \dot y + y = 0## where ##y = y(t)## and ##\mu \geq 0##
Compare with the damped oscillator equation
## \ddot y +b \dot y + y = 0## where ##b## is the amount of "damping".
We have that ##b## plays the role of ## -\mu (1-y^2 ) ##
Now, if ##b>0## then the solution ##y## will decay, and if ##b<0## the solution will "blow up"
We can make this analysis now, if ##|y| > 1## then ##|y|^2 > 1## and your "damping" "b" will be positive and hence solution ##y## will decay.
If ##|y|< 1## then ##|y|^2 < 1## and your "damping" "b" will be negative and hence solution ##y## will "blow up".

This is the idea of the Van Der Pol oscillator, oscilations with small amplitude will get their amplitudes increased, and vice versa. Energy is leaked out from the system when it grows to big, and energy is fed in when it grows too small.
 
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