Why is it said that magnetism breaks time reversal symmetry?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of time reversal symmetry in the context of magnetism, particularly how it relates to Maxwell's equations and various physical phenomena such as ferromagnetism, superconductivity, and topological insulators. Participants explore the implications of magnetism on time reversal symmetry and the nature of the underlying equations governing these phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that Maxwell's equations exhibit time reversal symmetry under specific transformations but questions how magnetism can break this symmetry.
  • Another participant requests citations to support claims regarding magnetism and time reversal symmetry.
  • Links to various papers are provided as examples of contexts where magnetism is discussed in relation to time reversal symmetry, including anti/ferrimagnetism and superconductivity.
  • A participant argues that the solutions to equations can lack the same symmetries as the equations themselves, citing spontaneous symmetry breaking as a relevant concept.
  • An analogy involving a pencil balanced on its point is used to illustrate how individual solutions can exhibit different symmetries than the underlying equations.
  • A practical example of a microwave circulator is presented, highlighting its directional properties due to ferrite and its relation to time reversal symmetry breaking as noted in microwave engineering literature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between Maxwell's equations and time reversal symmetry in the context of magnetism. While some agree on the existence of time reversal symmetry breaking in magnetic phenomena, the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications for Maxwell's equations and the nature of the solutions.

Contextual Notes

There is a mention of spontaneous symmetry breaking and its relevance to the discussion, indicating that the relationship between equations and their solutions may not be straightforward. The examples provided involve quantum phenomena, which may not directly align with classical electromagnetism.

fluidistic
Gold Member
Messages
3,934
Reaction score
286
It is known that Maxwell equations have the time reversal symmetry. I.e. by changing t by -t, J by -J (which can be understood as the charges going in the opposite direction when time is reversed, which makes sense), E to E and B to -B, the equations are still satisfied.

However, it is also claimed in several places (condensed matter when dealing with ferromagnetism or topological insulators when dealing with magnetic materials, just to name a few.) that magnetism breaks the time reversal symmetry.

How is that even possible? Wouldn't that imply that Maxwell equations lack the T-symmetry? If not, what's going on?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
fluidistic said:
it is also claimed in several places (condensed matter when dealing with ferromagnetism or topological insulators when dealing with magnetic materials, just to name a few.)
Can you link to a specific citation?
 
fluidistic said:
Wouldn't that imply that Maxwell equations lack the T-symmetry?

No, they just show that the solutions of an equation (which, btw, is probably not Maxwell's Equations in the examples you cite, since they are talking about quantum phenomena, not classical electromagnetism) do not have to have the same symmetries as the equation itself does. The latter two references talk about spontaneous symmetry breaking, which is the term commonly used for this phenomenon.

A simple example of the phenomenon would be a pencil balanced on its point. The equations describing what happens to the pencil if it tips over are rotationally symmetric; but once the pencil tips over, it will fall in one particular direction, not all of them at once. So the single solution that describes what the pencil actually does is not rotationally symmetric, even though the underlying equations are. The papers you reference are talking about cases where phenomena involving magnetism have the same property: the individual solutions that get realized in experiments do not have time reversal symmetry, even though the underlying equations do.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Dale
A nice practical example of this is the microwave circulator which is extremely common in microwave systems. It is basically a three-port device which consists of a PCB with microwave transmission lines with a ferrite "puck" glued on top of it. The ferrite gives the circuit directionallity which means that nearly all (about 98-99%) of the signal will only travel in one direction.
If you terminate the third port with a matched load you get an isolator; which is a component will passes signals in one direction but isolated in the other.

And yes. if you read microwave engineering books about this they do say that the ferrite breaks time reversal symmetry.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
6K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 35 ·
2
Replies
35
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
4K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K