News Why is the Rove/Plame issue important?

[Skyhunter]

Report that indictment is to be announced against Libby, and request of extension for investigation of Rove.

Got a link to a story?

 

[RunDMC]

It maters, it really does. The same serious security briefings that spell out the dangers of terrorism would also doubtless higlight the importance of keeping the intelligence community safe from exposure (and loss of leverage). You can't say that outing an operative is trivial, but then with the same team also bring a vial of anthrax to the UN's general chamber and declare that your intelligence on WMD holds the highest levels of integrity and security. A vial of anthrax for god's sake! (Baking powder and anthrax are legally quite similar when instead of release, you claim the baking powder represents anthrax. The purpose is to cause fear and alarm either way.)

 

[SOS2008]

Got a link to a story?

Originally reported in the NY Times, and repeated on CNN broadcast news, I'm sure this is old news now, but here's a link for today:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9837835/

Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, is expecting to be indicted for making false statements in the probe, according to White House colleagues.
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Possible charges are obstruction of justice or perjury, along with possible violations of a law barring disclosure of the identity of a covert intelligence agent.

Some lawyers have raised the specter of broader conspiracy charges as well.

Regarding Rove:

The New York Times earlier cited sources as saying that Fitzgerald was likely to extend the grand jury investigating the exposure beyond Friday, when its two-year term expires. Fitzgerald was meeting with the grand jury Friday morning.

Bush will wish Rove was being indicted now. If the investigation is extended, Fitzgerald will need to form a new grand jury. This will drag things out further into what's left of the second term—along side the trial for Libby.

Rove has a big smile (like always?) so it seems he not too concerned about it. Bush looks older than his father now. Rove should wipe the grin off his face--him and DeLay. The GOP should run them out of town on a rail.

 

[Gokul43201]

Libby indicted on 5 counts- resigns; nothing on Rove yet.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/28/p...&en=c1d856a2f5885424&ei=5094&partner=homepage

 

[alexandra]

Libby indicted on 5 counts- resigns; nothing on Rove yet.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/28/p...&en=c1d856a2f5885424&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Seems Rove wriggles out of it (as many predicted):

Presidential adviser Karl Rove appears to have escaped immediate indictment. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4386748.stm

 

[Skyhunter]

Seems Rove wriggles out of it (as many predicted):

I think that Libby is only the beginning. Fitzgerald just leased office space for 2 years, and if I am not mistaken the Grand jury is not being disbanded. I am a little unclear on the Grand jury, but today was supposed to be their last day. Guess we'll know more Monday.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I think we call this 'Libby takes one for the team' or 'Libby falls on sword'.

 

[Astronuc]

The investigations are not over, and Rove has not been cleared.

There is still the issue of who violated the 'Identities Act.'

Libby has only been charged with perjury, false testimony (or providing false evidence), and obstruction of justice.

Apparently, and it is not clear to me, the Grand Jury (or a Grand Jury) investigation will continue.

I have to admire Fitzgerald for his discipline and thoroughness.

 

[Skyhunter]

Why this is important

The CIA, before Porter let's not investigate Goss took over, asked for this investigation.

This is about national security. Not only does this effect every other operative that she was had contact with, it also renders ineffective Bruester Jennings, the CIA front company and our eyes and ears in ARAMCO.

But even more importantly it does irreparable harm to our intelligence sharing with other nations. You can bet that when the WH exposed Valerie Wilson for political get back, every foreign intelligence agency we conduct business with has done a reassessment on what cooperating with this administration means.

Not to mention that her portfolio, her job, was tracking WMD.

So who has been keeping track of the Saudi money going to fund Wahhabi terrorists?

What weapons of mass destruction have been purchased with Saudi money now that we can no longer keep close tabs.

Remember where Osama is from, and who the hijackers were on those planes on 9/11/2001.

Here's a hint.

They were not from Iraq!

I pray that we can get to the bottom of this before another attack is carried out against America.

If Bush can get another event to spin a war...God help us all.

 

[SOS2008]

Bush has impeached himself--in the witness kind of way--and no longer has credibility. Congress has been at an even lower approval rating throughout, and is not going to take any military action lightly. Even another terrorist attack would have to be handled very differently—knee jerk reaction would be replaced with thorough investigation and clear evidence.

Back to the matter of indictment:

Rove’s lawyer said he was told by special prosecutor Fitzgerald’s office that investigators would continue their probe into the aide’s conduct.
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Democrats suggested the indictment was just the tip of the iceberg...

The indictment says a substantial number of people in the White House knew about Plame’s CIA status before the publication of Robert Novak’s column on July 14, 2003, including former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer.

Good old Ari Fleischer eh?

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., said through a spokesman that the Senate won’t investigate the CIA leak.

No, really!? I can't imagine why. Well, that's why we have the FBI, the Justice Department, etc.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9837835/page/2/

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cia_leak_investigation;_ylt=AipWzfDYr2Up9vbC39dqn8lqP0AC;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Bush says Libby entitled to due process.

Bush praised Libby's service and said he is "presumed innocent and entitled to due process."

This from an administration which detains innocent people without charges or trial, or access to a lawyer, and which uses torture and coercion.

 

[SOS2008]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cia_leak_investigation;_ylt=AipWzfDYr2Up9vbC39dqn8lqP0AC;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
This from an administration which detains innocent people without charges or trial, or access to a lawyer, and which uses torture and coercion.

This was an even better (i.e., typically disturbing) quote from the president:

At a brief news conference, President Bush said that while he was “saddened by today’s news,” the indictment would not keep the White House from its work. “We’ve got a job to protect the American people, and that’s what we’ll continue to do,” he said.

That's what the WH work is? Wow, I wouldn't have ever known.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9837835/

 

[Skyhunter]

This was an even better (i.e., typically disturbing) quote from the president:

At a brief news conference, President Bush said that while he was “saddened by today’s news,” the indictment would not keep the White House from its work. “We’ve got a job to protect the American people, and that’s what we’ll continue to do,” he said.

That's what the WH work is? Wow, I wouldn't have ever known.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9837835/

Hey, didn't you know there are a lot more CIA operatives out there that might be Democrats. Gotta protect the American people from them.

It's hard work! That is why Bush is going to Camp David for the weekend.

 

[Manchot]

You know, I don't see how the perjury charge won't be an open-and-shut case. Would a jury really buy the assertion that all these reporters who will be testifying are lying, just to get Libby in trouble? Will they buy the assertion that Judith Miller, who stayed in prison for several months to protect Libby's identity, was lying?

 

[Skyhunter]

You know, I don't see how the perjury charge won't be an open-and-shut case. Would a jury really buy the assertion that all these reporters who will be testifying are lying, just to get Libby in trouble? Will they buy the assertion that Judith Miller, who stayed in prison for several months to protect Libby's identity, was lying?

Libby's case is open-and-shut. The real investigation into what he was lying to cover-up begins now.

My take on Fitzgerald's comments are that there will be a new Grand jury and the investigation will continue.

 

[Astronuc]

You know, I don't see how the perjury charge won't be an open-and-shut case. Would a jury really buy the assertion that all these reporters who will be testifying are lying, just to get Libby in trouble? Will they buy the assertion that Judith Miller, who stayed in prison for several months to protect Libby's identity, was lying?

Well it's not only the testimony of others that contradicts Libby's testimony, but written notes that dispute his earlier testimony, and apparently some of his own notes.

In someone's (possibly Fitzgerald) words, Libby lied when he indicated he [Libby] was at the back end of this chain when instead he was apparently at the front end of the process. Libby didn't learn from reporters about Plame's identity, but he learned from someone inside the administration, either Cheney or Rove or someone from the CIA, and he apparently contacted reporters to divulge the identity of Plame.

At this point, there has been no mention of an indictment regarding an actual crime related to revealing Plame's identity. So apparently, Fitzgerald has more work to do.

 

[Skyhunter]

Well it's not only the testimony of others that contradicts Libby's testimony, but written notes that dispute his earlier testimony, and apparently some of his own notes.
In someone's (possibly Fitzgerald) words, Libby lied when he indicated he [Libby] was at the back end of this chain when instead he was apparently at the front end of the process. Libby didn't learn from reporters about Plame's identity, but he learned from someone inside the administration, either Cheney or Rove or someone from the CIA, and he apparently contacted reporters to divulge the identity of Plame.
At this point, there has been no mention of an indictment regarding an actual crime related to revealing Plame's identity. So apparently, Fitzgerald has more work to do.

They thought they had their bases covered, until Ashcroft had to recuse himself.

Fitzgerald is a serious dude, and they are in trouble now.

 

[The Smoking Man]

They thought they had their bases covered, until Ashcroft had to recuse himself.
Fitzgerald is a serious dude, and they are in trouble now.

Here's a thought ...

(My role of sarcasm supplier notwithstanding)

In an effort to bring 'truth in government' to the fore, Why don't they just have done with it and rename the post of 'Special Prosecutor' to 'Witchfinder General'?

(Or would that be considered insulting to Mathew Hopkins?)

 

[pattylou]

Under what circumstances would a high level aide's crimes not require investigation by someone who *appeared* to be witchhunting?

Don't these guys have resources and savvy to cover most of their bases?

 

[SOS2008]

The topic of "witch hunting" has already been attempted. The remarks made by Senator Kay Baily Hutchison (posted in another thread by Skyhunter) were about as much a stretch that one might make, and she retracted her statements yesterday (or clarified, according to her). It would be very difficult to call this a witch-hunt because Fitzgerald is considered to be apolitical and is held highly by all (including Bush) for his thoroughness and focus on the law, not politics. Libby can go to trial denying any wrongdoing, but I’m not likely to question Fitzgerald.

 

[Skyhunter]

Here's a thought ...
(My role of sarcasm supplier notwithstanding)
In an effort to bring 'truth in government' to the fore, Why don't they just have done with it and rename the post of 'Special Prosecutor' to 'Witchfinder General'?
(Or would that be considered insulting to Mathew Hopkins?)

Fitzgerald is not a 'Special Prosecutor'. He is a just a regular federal prosecutor. He has none of the special powers that Kenneth Starr had.

 

[faust9]

Fitzgerald is not a 'Special Prosecutor'. He is a just a regular federal prosecutor. He has none of the special powers that Kenneth Starr had.

Who told you this? What powers does he lack?

 

[Skyhunter]

Who told you this? What powers does he lack?

Sorry, I confused the terms.

He is not an 'Independent prosecutor' with the following powers.

The prosecutor, who was appointed by a special panel of the Federal DC appeals court, could investigate allegations of any misconduct, with an unlimited budget and no deadline, and could only be dismissed by the Attorney General or a panel of three federal judges. As the president could not dismiss those investigating the executive branch it was felt that the independence of the office would insure impartiality of any reports presented to Congress. However, there have been many critics of this law including Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. Many argued the new Independent Counsel's office was a sort of "fourth branch" of government that had virtually unlimited powers and was answerable to no one. However, the constitutionality of the new office was ultimately upheld in the 1988 Supreme Court case Morrison v. Olson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Office_of_the_Independent_Counsel
He is a 'special prosecutor' appointed by the office of the Attorney General after Ashcroft recused himself for conflict of interest.

A special prosecutor is a lawyer from outside the government appointed by the attorney general or Congress to investigate a federal official for misconduct while in office.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_prosecutor

 

[Mercator]

So they got a scapegoat, and how long after the facts?
TSM, we were right about everything on the other thread, but I must confess I was wrong about one thing: I always believed that eventually a vast majority of Americans would not take the bs anymore, but this veaudeville keeps going on and on and most Americans sleep on. If this thing stops with Libby then I am definitively cured from my naivity.

 

[chaos_5]

It’s not important at all. The whole thing is one big non-issue. The only reason we hear about it so much is because the news media/left wants to see the president and/or anyone in the upper leadership of the administration made into criminals. This story is an attempt to prove a false premise. That false premise is the war is about a lie. It’s really quite funny how divorced from reality that premise is, and how despite some are to validate it. I suspect in a few weeks this will be old news, as the media gloms onto the next thing it thinks will bring down the "evil Bush administration".

 

[Mercator]

It’s not important at all. The whole thing is one big non-issue. The only reason we hear about it so much is because the news media/left wants to see the president and/or anyone in the upper leadership of the administration made into criminals. This story is an attempt to prove a false premise. That false premise is the war is about a lie. It’s really quite funny how divorced from reality that premise is, and how despite some are to validate it. I suspect in a few weeks this will be old news, as the media gloms onto the next thing it thinks will bring down the "evil Bush administration".

You see? They don't even have scruples about a presidency that does not hesitate to screw one of their own if he does not want to confirm their lies. And some Americans just seem to love to be screwed.

 

[SOS2008]

You see? They don't even have scruples about a presidency that does not hesitate to screw one of their own if he does not want to confirm their lies. And some Americans just seem to love to be screwed.

For those of you outside the U.S., always consider the source. There are about 20% hardcore Bush supporters who are as you describe, and one should take what they say with a grain of salt.

In fact, that is what this investigation is all about--trying to discredit someone. The irony is they were trying to discredit Wilson primarily with accusations of cronyism (i.e., his wife being instrumental in his selection for the investigation). It is not true--both had job descriptions appropriate for the roles played, and how much a role played by Valerie Plame was exaggerated. But it is really ironic that the Bush administration was trying to use cronyism to discredit Wilson.

Then some like Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Texas, who has been indicted before) have tried to diminish crimes considered to be felonies. As I’ve stated, anyone trying to discredit Fitzgerald would be a complete idiot. People with some logical reasoning can see that the Bush administration wanted to suppress Wilson's findings. Findings that were clearly in direct conflict with the case they were trying to build for the war--findings found to be correct, and contrary to Bush's speech thereafter, which was incorrect. Those looking for a logical explanation as to why a smart lawyer like Libby got caught in a web of lies, well here is your answer.

This is no big deal? Okay, it's no big deal.

 

[faust9]

Libby is going the Reagan route "I can't be expected to remember a series of conversations..."

Why not, I tend to remember basic details of important conversations for years.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/29/leak.probe.ap/index.html

Andrew Sullivan has a good write up

http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index...05_10_23_dish_archive.html#113054808801359975

 

[Manchot]

It’s not important at all. The whole thing is one big non-issue. The only reason we hear about it so much is because the news media/left wants to see the president and/or anyone in the upper leadership of the administration made into criminals. This story is an attempt to prove a false premise. That false premise is the war is about a lie. It’s really quite funny how divorced from reality that premise is, and how despite some are to validate it. I suspect in a few weeks this will be old news, as the media gloms onto the next thing it thinks will bring down the "evil Bush administration".

Patrick Fitzgerald is not a member of the news media/left, and even the Bush administration must think that he is impartial (since he was appointed to the case by James Comey, Deputy Attorney General and Bush appointee). He is in charge of the case, and along with a Grand Jury, decided to indict Libby for committing perjury, a serious crime (and certainly not a non-issue). Sorry, but this is not politically motivated, no matter how you try to spin it.

 

[chaos_5]

Patrick Fitzgerald is not a member of the news media/left ... Sorry, but this is not politically motivated, no matter how you try to spin it.

Perhaps the Prosecutor is acting in a professional manner, and simply doing his job. I give you that point; however there are far more important issues that should dominate the news cycle. The political aspect of this story is the coverage, and the conclusions some are drawing about the meaning of the indictment.