News Why is the Rove/Plame issue important?

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There have been several reports "connecting the dots" between foreign policy and Rove's alleged leak of Valerie Plame.

These few reports, (Daniel Schorr had one, one other in the NYT in the last few days) demonstrate how this may be "the issue" to cause the whole foreign policy (re: Iraq etc) to crash around the Republican party.

In my cynical moments, I think that a large segment of the population is unable to connect these dots for themselves, and that they aren't reading these particular columns. So I thought I'd raise the issue here. What is the single most distressing thing about the leak of Plame's CIA role? Alternatively, how does this leak fit into the larger picture?
 

SOS2008

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Though there have been other threads already on the topic...

It is distressing that the interest of our country has been compromised for personal power, then covered up, and now there are attempts to cover up the cover up. The investigation into the leak began two years ago. Supposedly Bush gave the directive for full cooperation. And now, Bush is shifting his position in an effort to protect Rove, etc., no doubt because as you say, there has been one cover up after another and it may well unravel. Let's hope so, because I'm not sure whether there is a hell where these *&$#%@!!! can burn for all eternity.
 
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I think a thread that brings in a lot of extra baggage, as true as that baggage may be, will be ignored by the people who have trouble recognizing the distilled truth about what that leak represents.

What is the fundamental reason that the leak was so damning?
 

Pengwuino

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So that people dont go off topic, factcheck.org has put out an article keeping certain facts straight and showing whats only opinion along with a long timeline of events

http://www.factcheck.org/article337.html [Broken]
 
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pattylou said:
What is the fundamental reason that the leak was so damning?
Ex-agents: CIA leak a serious betrayal
Friday, October 24, 2003 Posted: 12:19 PM EDT (1619 GMT
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/24/cnna.leak/ + several hundred more links like this.

This was a deed that is unmatched in history. it is 1000 times more dastardly than Nixon's lies. If a normal citizen had committed this act, they would now be in prison.

It was done solely in retribution, it was done to illegally punish someone for telling the truth, and it was done by a politician with the highest level of security clearance. There is no precedent for this kind of deed.
Yet the President continues to cover for this person.
 

Astronuc

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pattylou said:
There have been several reports "connecting the dots" between foreign policy and Rove's alleged leak of Valerie Plame.

These few reports, (Daniel Schorr had one, one other in the NYT in the last few days) demonstrate how this may be "the issue" to cause the whole foreign policy (re: Iraq etc) to crash around the Republican party.

In my cynical moments, I think that a large segment of the population is unable to connect these dots for themselves, and that they aren't reading these particular columns. So I thought I'd raise the issue here. What is the single most distressing thing about the leak of Plame's CIA role? Alternatively, how does this leak fit into the larger picture?
Could the Bush administration simply be removing those who are fair and impartial in their assessment of foreign intelligence? Could the Bush administration remove anyone who would oppose an agenda of developing false and misleading information? Hmmmm.

Kind of like Rove's idea - let's have a one party state. Oh, wait - that's not democracy is it? :biggrin:

This was a deed that is unmatched in history. it is 1000 times more dastardly than Nixon's lies. If a normal citizen had committed this act, they would now be in prison.
A normal citizen did commit an act of revealing Plame's identity - Robert Novak. Now the Whitehouse claims that Rove learned of Plame's identity from Novak.

Now, wait - where did Novak get his information and why hasn't he been arraigned? As far as I know, he is the one and only person to publicly identify Plame as working for the CIA. And that is supposed to be a crime. Or am I missing something here?

I wonder how many pardons GW will have to issue as his term expires?

I wonder if GW is considering a third term as president. All he has to do is declare martial law and suspend the Consitution. :biggrin:
 
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edward said:
Ex-agents: CIA leak a serious betrayal.
Why?The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen it to at least 10 characters.
 
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I'm not trying to be annoying, but I think we can simplify it even further than has been done on this thread so far -

Everything that has been said on this thread (including Pengwuino) is right.

Notwithstanding, and all Bush's politicking aside, how was the average American seriously and irrevocably *wronged* by the events surrounding Rove's decision to say "Wilson's wife?"

(And I post in terms of questions because I used to teach. I think it tends to inspire more participation. :smile: Or at least a little more active thinking. )
 

Astronuc

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Smurf said:
Betrayal gets people killed or at least puts someone at risk, and it would undermine the confidence of the intellgience community if they thought that people in their own government would sell them out.
 
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Here is my opinion on why the matter of Rove's alleged illegal behavior, is so disturbing. The single piece of context you need, is that Plame's husband said that there was no good intelligence that "yellow cake" plutonium had been in Iraq's possession.

The issue isn't about Bush hiring crooks.

It isn't about CIA agents being in more danger.

Those are important, but do not really directly insult the average American - You and me.

It's about this: Someone so close to the president as to be his primary political advisor, took measures to punish someone that suggested we should not invade Iraq. In other words, we were lied to, deliberately and knowingly, by the president. The policy was clear: Only acknowledge intelligence that supports invasion of Iraq.

We were screwed the minute Bush got into Office. 25,000 lives later, a world of global resentment later, escalating terrorism later, ... Rove's leak tells us that there was no hope of us *ever* avoiding this war.

Rumsfeld says we'll be there for 12 more years. That's my kids' childhood. It may be your life, or your son's life. 12 more years.

It was all a lie. Rove leaked Plame's name, to make sure that *no one* opposed the President's mission to invade Iraq. Period.

Townsend and Pengwuino and others make good arguments, on occasion, for why it may ultimately result in greater stability, that we invaded the middle east. But, that wasn't the case that was made by the administration. We were lied to. Every single American. By our "leader."

He refuses to acknowledge it.

We saw it before, we knew it before, and it keeps coming out.
 
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I don't get it. This isn't a big story. The Bushies don't care and the Anti-Bushies already know. Why is this still a big deal? It's barely a story at all.
 
Smurf said:
I don't get it. This isn't a big story. The Bushies don't care and the Anti-Bushies already know. Why is this still a big deal? It's barely a story at all.
A lame attempt at getting sombody to blow the dust of Ken Starr and actually prosecute someone? (Even Astronuc is getting cynical and I consider him to be quite fair and balanced from what I have read.)
 

SOS2008

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SOS2008 said:
It is distressing that the interest of our country has been compromised...
Meaning not only operations connected to Plame, not only for future operatives, but most importantly:
pattylou said:
It's about this: Someone so close to the president as to be his primary political advisor, took measures to punish someone that suggested we should not invade Iraq. In other words, we were lied to, deliberately and knowingly, by the president.
Well said.
Smurf said:
I don't get it. This isn't a big story. The Bushies don't care and the Anti-Bushies already know. Why is this still a big deal? It's barely a story at all.
Consider this--It may not have been just retribution, but more a matter of suppression of information, and it may have been with Bush's full knowledge, maybe even per his directive/mutual agreement between the two (which I personally believe). Thus:
edward said:
There is no precedent for this kind of deed.
And as stated above would be far more serious than Watergate. We're talking clear grounds for impeachment (though Bush supporters would no doubt try to justify it all in some way).
 
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SOS2008 said:
Consider this--It may not have been just retribution, but more a matter of suppression of information, and it may have been with Bush's full knowledge, maybe even per his directive/mutual agreement between the two (which I personally believe). Thus:

And as stated above would be far more serious than Watergate. We're talking clear grounds for impeachment (though Bush supporters would no doubt try to justify it all in some way).
I kind of thought lying to invade a country was worse than watergate... and worthy of impeachment.

Again; The Anti-Bushies already know it, the Bushies will still deny it, the courts are still not gonna do anything about it.
The Smoking Man said:
A lame attempt at getting sombody to blow the dust of Ken Starr and actually prosecute someone? (Even Astronuc is getting cynical and I consider him to be quite fair and balanced from what I have read.)
What's unfair about cynicism?
 
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Smurf said:
Again; The Anti-Bushies already know it, the Bushies will still deny it, the courts are still not gonna do anything about it.
The 10 - 30% in the middle are an important group. The Bushies will concede under enough pressure. The global community is waiting for the US to do something *right* for a change. That's two reasons why.

A significant number of Americans don't even know who Rove *is.*

Even your quote acknowledges the truth of the situation.
 

SOS2008

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The Smoking Man said:
A lame attempt at getting sombody to blow the dust of Ken Starr and actually prosecute someone?
Oh heavens no! The investigation into the Plame leak has already gone on for two years. We don't need it to become any more lengthy and tax wasting like Whitewater. In this case there is definitely guilt, and it's time to take action.
 

solutions in a box

The plot thickens

According to an associated press article in the morning paper:

On September 9 2003 at 8:00 PM then White House council Alberto Gonzales was notified by the Department of justice that the "Plame leak" was going to be investigated.

Gonzales only notified WhiteHouse Chief of staff Andy Card. No other White House Staff members were notified (by Gonzales) until the next day.

That must have been a night of fervent paper shredding and file deleting.
 
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The old twenty minutes of missing tape ploy replays once again.

We might add to the above posts:
The total defrauding of the American people at the highest level of government. Or is that now legal??
 
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SOS2008 said:
Oh heavens no! The investigation into the Plame leak has already gone on for two years. We don't need it to become any more lengthy and tax wasting like Whitewater. In this case there is definitely guilt, and it's time to take action.
Give him a duffle coat and a tube pass and ship him to London then.
 

SOS2008

Gold Member
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"Prosecutor in CIA leak case casting wide net"

By Walter Pincus and Jim VandeHei
Updated: 1:09 a.m. ET July 27, 2005

The special prosecutor in the CIA leak probe has interviewed a wider range of administration officials than was previously known, part of an effort to determine whether anyone broke laws during a White House effort two years ago to discredit allegations that President Bush used faulty intelligence to justify the Iraq war, according to several officials familiar with the case.

...In doing so, special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald has asked not only about how CIA operative Valerie Plame's name was leaked but also how the administration went about shifting responsibility from the White House to the CIA for having included 16 words in the 2003 State of the Union address about Iraqi efforts to acquire uranium from Africa, an assertion that was later disputed.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8719617/

So not only is this invetigation leading to lies about Iraq, the update on various news reports this evening (MSNBC/CNN) is that officials (Cheney, etc.) have retained attorneys (echoes of Watergate), and now there is a call for a congressional investigation as well.
 
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Wow, as elevated as some of you make this "CIA leak" it is no wonder that this non-story has come so far. Plame hasnt been "covert" for over 6 years, she is not big news, at all. Wilson had her name on his personal blog before any of this ever happend. He wrote a book titled "plan of attack," in which he lied on several occasions about the details of his trip to niger. This is a man who funded the kerry campaign. The only crook in this entire equation is wilson himself. Wow I just had to laugh and cry and then vomit when I saw that LIVE media ordeal of wilson asking rove to step down.

This whole thing has taught me a big lesson, this is the first time I have seen complete disregard for the truth by the media. THIS IS NOT A STORY, IT IS NOT AN ISSUE, and yet, it is. The worse thing about it all is that even though Rove is innocent, the media has wound this thing up so much that it seems like he is guilty.
 
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Astronuc said:
I wonder how many pardons GW will have to issue as his term expires?
Who is GW ? Hmmm
 
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pattylou said:
The 10 - 30% in the middle are an important group.
A Gallup poll out today, shows considerably increasing belief (from ~30% two years ago to ~50% today) among the population that Bush lied deliberately in the run up to war.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000894970 [Broken]

THis is relevant to the idea of whether "bushies" and "antibushies" ever change their minds. Also, it is reassuring to see.
 
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Informal Logic

Mattius_ said:
Wow, as elevated as some of you make this "CIA leak" it is no wonder that this non-story has come so far. Plame hasnt been "covert" for over 6 years, she is not big news, at all. Wilson had her name on his personal blog before any of this ever happend. He wrote a book titled "plan of attack," in which he lied on several occasions about the details of his trip to niger. This is a man who funded the kerry campaign. The only crook in this entire equation is wilson himself. Wow I just had to laugh and cry and then vomit when I saw that LIVE media ordeal of wilson asking rove to step down.

This whole thing has taught me a big lesson, this is the first time I have seen complete disregard for the truth by the media. THIS IS NOT A STORY, IT IS NOT AN ISSUE, and yet, it is. The worse thing about it all is that even though Rove is innocent, the media has wound this thing up so much that it seems like he is guilty.
If you want to laugh and cry and vomit even more, try reading the thread on Bush and honesty. In the meantime, thanks for just a laugh - "Rove is innocent" :rofl: :rofl:
 

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