Why work is defined as a scalar?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the definition of work as a scalar quantity in physics, exploring the implications of this definition and questioning whether work could be defined as a vector quantity. Participants examine the relationship between force, displacement, and the directionality of work, considering both theoretical and practical aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that work is defined as a scalar because it is a useful quantity, while others question the rationale behind this definition, suggesting that work inherently involves direction.
  • There is a contention regarding negative work, with some arguing it indicates a reduction in velocity, while others state that negative work can represent various scenarios, not just deceleration.
  • One participant proposes that if work were a vector, it would complicate the understanding of work done when an object is pushed in different directions or along a curved path.
  • Mathematical representations of work are discussed, including the dot product of force and displacement, which yields a scalar, and the implications of this operation in terms of directionality.
  • Some participants introduce the concept of force as a "covector" and discuss the units of work and force, leading to a debate about the dimensional analysis of these quantities.
  • Another viewpoint emphasizes that work measures how effectively a force achieves displacement, suggesting that work is zero if there is no displacement regardless of the force applied.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether work should be considered a scalar or a vector quantity. There is no consensus, as multiple competing perspectives remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Some arguments depend on specific interpretations of directionality and the conditions under which work is calculated. The discussion includes unresolved mathematical steps and varying definitions of terms like "goal" in the context of work.

Tahmeed
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we know work is F.s which is a scalar quantity. but why it is defined this way? work actually has something to do with direction. Negative work means reduction in velocity and velocity has direction. What was the problem of defining work as vector that lies in the direction of displacement??
 
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Tahmeed said:
work actually has something to do with direction.
It does not.
Tahmeed said:
Negative work means reduction in velocity and velocity has direction.
It does not have to be a reduction in velocity, it can be everything. Also, you can change the direction of velocity without altering speed. Do you want to have a separate work quantity for every possible direction where deceleration can occur?
Tahmeed said:
What was the problem of defining work as vector that lies in the direction of displacement??
It does not make sense because work does not care about the direction of motion of whatever object was used. It's like assigning a temperature a material property based on the material used to measure it. "It is 30 degrees mercury-celsius today" - "oh, according to my thermometer it is 30 degrees semiconductor-celsius".
 
Tahmeed said:
we know work is F.s which is a scalar quantity. but why it is defined this way?
The quantity F.s is a useful quantity. Because it is useful, it is used often, and it was therefore convenient to give it a name. There really isn't any reason for a definition other than usefulness and convenience.

Tahmeed said:
What was the problem of defining work as vector that lies in the direction of displacement??
You mean something like ##|\mathbf{F}|\mathbf{s}##? Where is such a quantity used? I cannot think of a single time I have ever seen that quantity used.
 
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Let's look at work as force acting over a distance.

First the force vector:

Fortunately it has units of work, not force, and everything makes sense.

W[ Newton \cdot meter ] = F_x[Newton] dx[meter] + F_y[Newton] dy[meter] + F_z[Newton] dz [meter]

Normally, you are taught that F = F_x \hat{i} + F_y \hat{j} + F_z \hat{k}.

i, j and k are unit vectors in the x, y, and z directions, respectively. The little dx, dy, and dz replace these.
 
Force is a "covector" having units of work. The vector elements have units of force.

w = F_x dx + F_y dy + F_z dz
Integrated over a spatial interval, W_{ab} = \int_{a}^{b} w
 
Tahmeed said:
we know work is F.s which is a scalar quantity. but why it is defined this way? work actually has something to do with direction. Negative work means reduction in velocity and velocity has direction. What was the problem of defining work as vector that lies in the direction of displacement??
Work is supposed to be a measure of how "hard" it is to do something. If work had been a vector in the direction of the displacement, then if you push a heavy object 5 meters in one direction and then push it back, you will have performed zero work.

Also, what if you push an object in a curved line? What would be the direction of the work vector then?
 
Mathematically, work is the dot product between the force and distance. Dot product creates a scalar out of two vectors. Note that if you push the side of a truck that happens to be moving forward (perpendicular to your force), then you aren't doing work on the truck. The dot product converts the two directions (your force and the trucks motion) into a single quantity, independent of direction, since you can rotate the entire coordinate system and you still do no work on the truck.

Work shares the same units as energy, and energy has no direction. In fact, in special relativity, energy and momentum form a 4-vector. You could think of the energy as the component of energy-momentum directed in the time direction, while the momentum is the three components directed in space directions.
 
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stedwards said:
Force is a "covector" having units of work. The vector elements have units of force.
What? That makes no sense. Force has units of mass*length/time^2. Work has units of mass*length^2/time^2.
Note that length^2 = length dot length, which is a scalar.
 
  • #10
W[ML^2T^{-2}] = F_i[MLT^{-2}]dx^i[L]

W_{ab} = \int_a^b F_i dx^i = \int_a^b W

Re. length squared as a scalar. Interesting.

\frac{\partial}{\partial x} dx is scalar and dimensionless.
 
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  • #11
Work is a quantity that just tell you how much the force achieved its "Goal"(the goal here is the displacement from one place to another with the direction of the force ).
suppose that you are making a force on a block,but the block didn't do displacement at all.Then in this case the work is zero(you didn't achieve your goal).
If you want to multiply vectors like how you you multiply real numbers,the two vectors must be in same direction else you should project one into another(and that what scalar product does).
W=F.r, you should project F in the direction of r because it is the condition where your goal is achieved or oppositely achieved (if your force is projected in the same direction but in opposite sense with displacement).
F is the force and r is the displacement.If the block is displaced and there is zero force then work is zero,and if there is forced applied on the block but no displacement occurred then work is zero either.
SO WORK CAN'T BE A VECTOR QUANTITY.IT JUST TELL YOU HOW MUCH YOUR GOAL IS ACHIEVED. Look at the figure below.
20150618_110957.jpg

 
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