Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Wiki Quote-2 - Higgs Mechanism

  1. Dec 7, 2009 #1
    "Although the evidence for the Higgs mechanism is overwhelming,"

    As far as I know there is no evidence for the Higgs mechanism. The only potential evidence is the Higgs particle which has not been found! Is this also SM propaganda?
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 7, 2009 #2
    Please stop calling it "propaganda". Have you ever read anything introductory about the standard model apart from wikipedia ? Say for instance

    Introduction to the Standard Model and Electroweak Physics

    If you read wikipedia carefully you would have noticed that the evidence is for the Higgs mechanism not the single fundamental scalar Higgs of the version beta of the standard model. This is a very reasonable statement. Whether or not the single scalar Higgs exist, something certainly does its job (the Higgs mechanism) otherwise probability is not conserved.
  4. Dec 7, 2009 #3
    I have, and you answered my question in two ways.

    1) As I already knew, but had not remembered at the moment, but as indicated by arXiv:09010241, "The first term in the Higgs potential V is a constant. ... Such a constant term in the Higgs is irrelevant to physics in the absence of gravity, but will be seen in Section 5 to be one of the most serious problems of the SM when gravity is incorporated because it acts like a cosmological constant much larger (and of opposite sign) than is allowed
    by observations.

    2) and when you said "something certainly does its job".

    You don't know what does the job nor how its done, nor how the gravity problem is solved.

    You can not argue that ignorance of another solution is evidence for a solution, only evidence of our ignorance!

    Thus you have proved it is propaganda!

  5. Dec 7, 2009 #4
    I certainly do not agree. Whether you like it or not, something accomplishes the Higgs mechanism. That you do not understand it does not entitle you to name it "propaganda". Bold face typing does not fill the vacuity of your argumentation. Your attitude is preposterous.
  6. Dec 7, 2009 #5
    This is a meaningless statement as it is equivalent to saying "something must give particles mass", (DA). The question is what? If it is the Higgs mechanism what is the evidence. You present no evidence.

    I present evidence that the Higgs mechanism has a major problem.

    A major problem is the opposite of "overwhelming evidence".

    The Higgs mechanism if correct must work with gravity!

    When gravity is included it produces the wrong result!

    You ignore this problem and then say I do not understand (an interesting approach to science).

    I asked for substantive information, not religious conjecture.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  7. Dec 8, 2009 #6
    The masses of the W- and Z-bosons are determined by the higgs-mechanism (see your other post), not just only their ratio. If we DIDN'T have the higgs-mechanism, we can only put their masses by hand (or just get their ratio, not both at the same time!), but now we can see that their mass is proportional to the Electroweak vacuum, hence we have a definite scale and thus definite mass-predictions (both at tree level and higher orders in perturbation theory, the results are delicate)

    The Higgs mechanism also removes the divergences in gauge-boson self-couplings and in processes like e+e- -> W+W-, which makes their measured cross sections fits extremely well with theory, only in the higgs mechanism is there.

    http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-ph/pdf/0001/0001283v1.pdf (also full of historical refences and developments)

    Including gravity is a major "lack" in all quantum theories so far, and there is no a priori reason for why gravity should be treated on equal footing as the other 3 forces at these small energy scales... the unification of gravity and the other 3 forces should happen at much higher energies, were also - quantum theory as we know it - also may break down (to e.g. String Theory). So you are mixing apples and pears when including gravity into the SM, SM has never even claimed that it can explain gravity, so one should impose that on the SM if one wants to criticise it.

    As I showed you and what can be shown in e.g. the lecture notes I just gave you here, the Higgs Mechanism only has ONE missing ingredient left to be found - the Physical Higgs boson (and its mass). Otherwise, the SM is a very well tested theory and is also theoretical CONSISTENT (but not a theoretical complete description)

    I agree with Humanino, you has not simply not understood the Higgs Mechanism and particle physics / Quantum Field theory yet I would say.. give it more time.. you (as many other think) thought that the only evidence for the higgs mechanism was the physical higgs boson...

    Even if it is not the Higgs mechamism outlined and used in Weinberg-Salam EW theory, it must be something like that, due to the cancellation of divergences in e.g. WW production (what Humanino refered to as conservation of probability).
  8. Dec 8, 2009 #7

    Vanadium 50

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Education Advisor
    2017 Award

    If you were seeking information, you wouldn't be using such provocative words as "propaganda".

    This thread is not heading anywhere productive.
Share this great discussion with others via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook