News Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[J77]

Isreal are in trouble now - messing with the UN.

 

[Yonoz]

I would still refer you to the Civil war that gripped Lebanon for 15 years.

Why is it that the UN are in the south? and are you aware of its mandate?

To cut a long story short, they are there to help the weak Lebanese government bolster its control in the south.

That Lebanese government has done nothing to improve its control over the South in 6 years, in violation of UNSC resolution 1559. The problem is not weakness, it's unwillingness.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Hizbullah does not recognise Israel's right to exist and calls for Israel's destruction. Israel does not occupy one inch of Lebanese soil. Hizbullah demands the release of hundreds of prisoners including convicted murderers, including

Also they want the release of prisoners detained without trial don't forget.

Your use of the term soldiers in reference to Hizbullah is offending me, as I think it would anyone who was ever a soldier. There are plenty of other undisputed terms you can use.

I prefer Guerilla personally, or freedom fighter in some cases, not this one though.

A member of an irregular, usually indigenous military or paramilitary unit operating in small bands in occupied territory to harass and undermine the enemy, as by surprise raids.

Yonoz you would make a poor military strategist, if Palestine is indeeed waiting to repulse Israel what benefit would there be in attacking Hezbollah, if they are also helping them to repulse Israel, they might fight along side them but to fight them? Not smart(of course it could all be posturing, bravado, bluff). Oh and they aren't as powerfull as Hezbollah who are firmly entrenched for this situation anyway from what I've read so it would be fruitless and ultimately suicidal. There equipment and training is outdated according to the link I gave. Perhaps they thought when they were rebuilding their country after the last tragedy of war they could invest in infrastructure and tourism and all the things that bring back commerce and vibrancy to a country instead of war, that way they could recover faster? Poor planning when you have Israel as a neighbour I suspect if that was their intent.

 

[Anttech]

It's more than anyone has ever done for Israeli civilians.

As you said its a terrorist organisation, you shouldn't be scoping to the same levels.

That Lebanese government has done nothing to improve its control over the South in 6 years, in violation of UNSC resolution 1559. The problem is not weakness, it's unwillingness.

There is a difference between can't and wont. Dont you get that? The government hasnt been able too, it cant. You don't seem to understand the ramifications of a 15 year civil war, and of course the Syrian's control up till 2005. Do you honestly think in 1 year of Lebanon independence since the "cedar" revolution, it could have eradicated Hezbollah?

 

[Yonoz]

As you said its a terrorist organisation, you shouldn't be scoping to the same levels.

I was referring to the Lebanese government.

There is a difference between can't and wont. Dont you get that? The government hasnt been able too, it cant. You don't seem to understand the ramifications of a 15 year civil war, and of course the Syrian's control up till 2005. Do you honestly think in 1 year of Lebanon independence since the "cedar" revolution, it could have eradicated Hezbollah?

Again, not eradicated - disarmed.

 

[Yonoz]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/world/middleeast/25beirut.html"

In the days since Israeli planes began to bomb Lebanon, this seaside capital has been almost physically split in two, with its largely Shiite flank mutilated by Israeli airstrikes and most of the rest of the city remaining relatively unscathed, if quieter and emptier than usual.

The stark physical contrast reflects a deep and growing divide in Lebanese society between the less affluent, more religious Shiite south and the more urban center, largely of Sunni Muslims, Druse and Christians, which has built and benefited from a long-awaited economic boom.

 

[Anttech]

And from the same link:

“The first thing I thought was, ‘How crazy to go wake up the monster,’ ” said Issam Saleh, a secular Shiite and an engineer who spends most of his days writing poetry in the garden at the Paul Restaurant. Hezbollah “knew exactly what would happen, but did it anyway.”

Even so, as the Israeli bombardment of the south drags on, dividing lines have softened: Even those who hate Hezbollah are horrified by the destruction. Now, as the war rages without any foreseeable end, almost everybody has been wondering where their embattled country can possibly go from here.
<snip>
But the longer Israeli planes continue to pound the country, the more the Lebanese find it difficult to stay angry with Hezbollah. Horrific scenes unfolded on the Printania screen: collapsed buildings and vast stretches of rubble in Nabatiya, in the south.

“We’re not Hezbollah supporters, but we cannot excuse what the Israelis are doing,” said Rima Beydoun, a secular Shiite who owns an advertising agency.

“We knew there would be repercussions, but no one expected they would be like this,” Mr. Salhab, the filmmaker, said of Shiite support for Hezbollah. “I am very critical of that part of my country, but I have to put it aside, because we are being destroyed.

“At this point, I can’t just say: Hezbollah, go to hell.”

The situation is made all the more complicated by the nature of Hezbollah. It functions as a civil aid group as well as a militia, helping with schools and in hospitals, and in many cases providing essential public services at times in the years of the war when the government was simply not able. It has a savvy media operation, with a spokesman who takes groups of journalists on tours of the devastation in southern Beirut with a truck that blares Hezbollah fighting songs from rows of speakers.

 

[Hans de Vries]

That Lebanese government has done nothing to improve its control over the South in 6 years, in violation of UNSC resolution 1559. The problem is not weakness, it's unwillingness.

The Syrian troops just left 12 months ago. Thanks to the international community.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1437-2004Oct1.html


Regards, Hans

 

[Hurkyl]

Life isn't binary and neither is a debate about the Israel Hezbollah conflict. There is no *logical* 1 or 0 or right or wrong. So to assert that emmotions "get in the way" is a falacy in this context IMHO.

You can reason with shades of grey, y'know. But as far as I can tell, this really has no bearing whatsoever on whether emotions "get in the way".

The civilan deaths are a result of Israel's response to that.

Of course, this is a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back sort of thing. (at least, it appears that way to me)

But with the same sentance they understand that Israel doesn't have a right to destroy Beruit and create 500,000 Refugies, as they try to smash hezbollah to the ground.

Why not?

I'm sure you agree that Israel has the right to "smash Hezbollah to the ground"... or at least to strike at its capability to terrorize Israel. Upon what grounds do you deny them that right?

Well I do not.
And we have the right to our views right?

Attacking a civilian population is crystal clear agression in my views.

Yes you can have your views -- but this is a debate, not a poll. And, of course, posting your view means it's fair game for criticism.

It has been pointed out several times this thread that "attacking civilians" and "attacking militants hiding among civilians" are two very different things.

You're going to have to address this fact if you want to have any chance of getting anyone to listen to you who does not already agree with you.

Agreed. If your going to bring your tool box to a debate why leave 40% of your tools at home

If 40% of your "tool box" is logical fallacies, then I'd really prefer you left the whole thing at home.

a gentle prod to see where or why someone has the beliefs they do is of no serious threat to the logic of a debate

Why not simply ask?

but that's not how human discussion goes, especially in emotive threads such as this one.

If everyone walked off a cliff, would you? We should not aspire to a low standard just because some people don't know how to have a rational discussion.

luckily, it would be very dry if people refrained from normal discussion practices

But there would be more progress. I'd prefer dry progress than... um... non-dry stagnation. If memory serves, I thought the thread was progressing rather nicely until "normal discussion practices" entered the fray, and have since felt the thread has slowed way down.

A year ago, a thread like this would have gone essentially nowhere, because all shreds of rational argument would be lost amongst the "normal discussion practices".

 

[Anttech]

Why not?

I'm sure you agree that Israel has the right to "smash Hezbollah to the ground"... or at least to strike at its capability to terrorize Israel. Upon what grounds do you deny them that right?

So why not nuke them? it would be quicker, and 100% guaranteed to kill the majority of terrorists! Would you back this strategy?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I'm sure you agree that Israel has the right to "smash Hezbollah to the ground"... or at least to strike at its capability to terrorize Israel. Upon what grounds do you deny them that right?
.

It has the right to attack Hezbollah, but as has been mentioned having a 10 to 1 kill ratio(civillian to Hezbollah) Has upset a lot of people including Israelis who have turned out to protest the level of violence. Dya think terrorism is defeated by violence? Or have you seen like us Brits what stamping on terrorists does to the situation?

Israel has lost any moral highground it had in this situation and believe me, I was of the opinion that at least Israel units didn't run into packed nightclubs and blow themselves up, target civillians, at least it had made efforts to offer peace in the past , now I'm thinking it took a situation that was about two soldiers and turned it into an excuse to indiscriminately ruin a countries recovery and kill 380(forget how many it is now) Civillians and further alienate arab countries for years to come? as well as turn the west(minus big brother) Against it. If you ask me it looks like Hezbollah has the upper hand at the moment anyway if you're looking at intangibles.

Using emotion has nothing to do with logical fallacy(if your doing that your not using it properly) E.g if I say my entire familly was killed in such and such and therefore I know first hand the suffering going on at the moment, this is why it is remarkable that I still feel there could be peace because argument x, how is this logical fallacy? How is giving gravitas to an argument not a valid tool?

But there would be more progress. I'd prefer dry progress than... um... non-dry stagnation. If memory serves, I thought the thread was progressing rather nicely until "normal discussion practices" entered the fray, and have since felt the thread has slowed way down.

A year ago, a thread like this would have gone essentially nowhere, because all shreds of rational argument would be lost amongst the "normal discussion practices"

I don't think we're on the same page at all, I'm not talking about ranting or slinging useless trite phraseology around in anger, I'm talking about mixing emotive language into your argument, like I think encouraging hatred from Arabs is pointless. I'd point point out some passages where this is cleverly done, or where it the argument is stale and emotionless, but It might be considered insulting. Suffice to say the level of emotion has not diminished since the start, I think your referring to something else when you disparrage argument, if you've ever discussed anything in public you must know how effective your tone of voice is in conveying meaning, there are people who can do it with inflection and there are people who can do it with writting, I'm not one of them I have no real literary talent, but some people are masters of using clever argument mixed with emotive phrasing to really hammer home their points. Like I say it's 40% of the art of convincing argument at least from my experience. People like content but they like something they can empathise or feel too.

Someone once said someone won't remember what you said or what you did but they will remember how you made them feel. I forget who and they said it better

 

[Yonoz]

The Syrian troops just left 12 months ago. Thanks to the international community.

Israel removed thousands of families from their homes despite violent resistance and major civil disorder. The Gaza pullout was completed less than 12 months from the decision to carry it out. A large number of these families lived in tents until last week. Their property is baking inside containers stored in giant makeshift yards. They've lost their homes, workplaces, businesses - entire communities, broken and spread out in temporary solutions, doing the beaurocracy limbo with what savings they have. The Israeli public supported this move, and its government executed it with unbreakable resolve.
Restoring the Lebanese government's control over south Lebanon does not require an air force, a navy, or shiny new APC's. All it takes is motivation. If the Lebanese government is not motivated enough to assert its duties towards the Lebanese people, Israel is not automatically indebted with that duty. Had the Lebanese done the smallest step towards complying with UNSC resolution 1559 I guarantee you the Israeli leadership would not have responded so harshly. We are tired of being the grown-up.
There are some basic things you would expect to be done in the first 12 months. Discussions in the parliament. Policy declarations by the government. Mediation. Nothing was done and the expressed policy was one of complicity. Hizbullah is a coalition partner, they have a minister in the government. They are governing some of the country, completely challenged.
There is only so much we can take. Hizbullah poses a serious risk to Israeli civilians and it is our government's responsibility to protect them, even if it costs our nation a grave price. It's a shame anyone is suffering, including the Lebanese people, but the situation requires it.

 

[mbrmbrg]

‘for every Katyusha barrage on Haifa, 10 Dahiya buildings will be bombed’

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retribution" .

Right, now we're back where we started. "for e/ katyusha barrage on haifa, [there will be retribution]," correct?

Your link gives 2 definitions for retribution:
1. Something justly deserved, recompense
2. Something given or demanded in repayment, especially punishment.

Neither denote if the buildings to be targeted are suspicious in their own right, though def#1 connotes that they are, and def#2 connotes that they are not.

Still all in how you want to read it.

 

[kyleb]

Look down the page a bit for the definition titled "Main Entry."

 

[Yonoz]

Here's an article about Israel's most prominent Arab affairs correspondent, Zvi Yehezkeli: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742277.html" [sic].

He was born in 1970. His father emigrated as a one-year-old from Iraq; his mother was born en route from Kurdistan to Israel. He says he was not the greatest student. In the army he served in an infantry unit and after his discharge he traveled abroad for six years and worked as a security guard at embassies. Upon his return, he felt an urge to take up Middle East studies. He did his undergraduate degree in that subject and in communications. His master's thesis was based on trips to the territories "with a backpack on my back, just like I did abroad." After that he was Army Radio's Palestinian affairs correspondent, worked for a while at Channel 1's "Yoman" and from there arrived at Channel 10.

On the show, "London and Kirschenbaum" he has a daily spot that is also broadcast during these days of fighting and covers the Arab world from diverse angles. "From the gyms in Dubai to the ringtones in mosques in Damascus and single women in Saudi Arabia," he says and quickly explains: "It's just as important to show the faces behind Assad or Mubarak. I say, 'these are people just like you. Let's take a look at them.' We have prompted a revolution in this regard."

 

[Bystander]

(snip)Dya think terrorism is defeated by violence? Or have you seen like us Brits what stamping on terrorists does to the situation?(snip)

Settles it right down --- you "Brits" hanged 400 Thugs, imprisoned another 4000, and killed a few hundred to a thousand in straight up fighting in India. That settled that. Same approach works today --- you run into a "Charles Manson" type, string 'im up rather than feeding him on the taxpayers' money, and civilized behavior becomes preferable to infantile temper tantrums.

 

[Anttech]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5217176.stm
UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.

The post was hit by a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling, diplomats familiar with the probe say.
The four unarmed UN observers from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, died after their UN post in the town of Khiam was hit by an Israeli air strike on Tuesday.

The UN report says each time the UN contacted Israeli forces, they were assured the firing would stop.

A senior Irish soldier working for the UN forces had warned the Israelis six times that their bombardment was endangering the lives of UN staff, Ireland's foreign ministry said.

Settles it right down --- you "Brits" hanged 400 Thugs, imprisoned another 4000, and killed a few hundred to a thousand in straight up fighting in India. That settled that. Same approach works today

Was that not in the Victorian ages? Schrodinger's Dog was referring to the IRA who the English formed a peace with, who incidentally were funded by US Citizen.

 

[mbrmbrg]

Was that not in the Victorian ages? Schrodinger's Dog was referring to the IRA who the English formed a peace with, who incidentally were funded by US Citizen.

Can you explain the essential difference between dealing with Indian terrorists in the Victorian era and dealing with the IRA a few years ago?
Why should Hezbollah vs Israel be compared to IRA vs Great Britain rather than Indian terrorists vs Great Britain?

 

[mbrmbrg]

I'd like to point out that Haluz does not say "For every katyusha barrage on Haifa, 10 Dahiya buildings chosen at random will be bombed." He says that 10 Dahiya buildings will be bombed.
It's all in what you want to read: while some would rather read "random buildings," I'd read, "10 buildings for which we have evidence of Hizbullah activity therein."

I read that the targets are optional and destroyed out of a desire for retribution rather than as a necessity.

Beg your pardon, you're correct on the definition of retribution, but above is where "retribution" came up in the first place. Your reading vs my reading. I think this sub-debate is just stating opinion at this point. Agree to disagree?
(and sorry for wasting your time quibbling over retribution)

 

[kyleb]

You didn't quote my reading there, you quoted where you made your own up and tried to pass it off as mine.

 

[Anttech]

Can you explain the essential difference between dealing with Indian terrorists in the Victorian era and dealing with the IRA a few years ago?

If I must

Essentially the difference is about 100 years.

 

[edward]

I can not accept that the bombing of the UN outpost was an unfortunate accident. That post had been in Southern Lebanon since 1978 and the blue flag was flying.(CNN this morning) This reminds me of the Israeli attack on the U.S. ship Liberty in 1968. The ship was a spy ship operated by the NSA. Why Israel bombed and straffed the Liberty was never really disclosed.

In this case Israel had recently requested that the USA send them preciscion guided munitions. The bombing of the UN outpost may have been a little reminder to speed up the delivery.

 

[Yonoz]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280038,00.html" by Sever Plocker, a traditionally left wing news editor.

 

[edward]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280038,00.html" by Sever Plocker, a traditionally left wing news editor.

Is this supposed to be the excuse for everything??
http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.pdf

 

[Yonoz]

Is this supposed to be the excuse for everything??

Did I say it was an excuse for anything? What happened to "other side of the coin"? What happened to "take X with a grain of salt"?

 

[edward]

Did I say it was an excuse for anything? What happened to "other side of the coin"? What happened to "take X with a grain of salt"?

OK I see your point, but did you ever stop to think that you may be creating more terrorists than you are killing by using Lebanon as you're punching bag?

 

[Yonoz]

OK I see your point, but did you ever stop to think that you may be creating more terrorists than you are killing by using Lebanon as you're punching bag?

No one is using Lebanon as their punching bag. More than 1400 rockets have landed in Israel so far, not counting mortar shells. That is a clear threat to Israeli civilians. These weapons and their operators are hiding inside a civilian population. Israel is forced to defend its citizens, even at the price of raising anger.
BTW I suggest you look at the article about Zvi Yehezkeli, I admire the man. Israelis are not blind to the matters in Lebanon.

 

[slugcountry]

Nor is Lebanon blind to the matters of Israel - has it ever occurred to you that an invasion and world-wide attention is exactly what hizbollah was after?

 

[Yonoz]

Nor is Lebanon blind to the matters of Israel - has it ever occurred to you that an invasion and world-wide attention is exactly what hizbollah was after?

Even so should we just sit while our cities are being attacked? It seems to elude many people that Israel is being attacked here in the most vile way. I know of no country that would allow that to continue.

 

[Anttech]

Even so should we just sit while our cities are being attacked?

Nope but cutting your own nose off to spite your face isn't going to help either. Which is what you are doing.

 

[Yonoz]

Nope but cutting your own nose off to spite your face isn't going to help either. Which is what you are doing.

Spare the obscure proverbs. Can you offer an alternative way of protecting Israeli civilians?

 

[kyleb]

A practical example would be; the Israelis who go into rebuild the houses of Palestinians don't suffer the same hostilities faced by the ones who tear the down.

 

[Yonoz]

Let's not confuse Lebanon and the occupied territories - it's nothing short of ignorance. My question still stands - can anyone offer an alternative way for the Israeli leadership to protect its civilians?

 

[Anttech]

Its all inter-related, and to dismiss the problems in the occupied territories as nothing to do with the current campaign would be ignorant

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Let's not confuse Lebanon and the occupied territories - it's nothing short of ignorance. My question still stands - can anyone offer an alternative way for the Israeli leadership to protect its civilians?

Long term peace, I thought I mentioned that already? The only real solution.

 

[Yonoz]

Its all inter-related, and to dismiss the problems in the occupied territories as nothing to do with the current campaign would be ignorant

Still, I asked what alternatives there are for Israel to protect its civilians from the rockets fired out of Lebanon, and was met with not-so-much-as-an-answer-but-some-sort-of-unrelated-example(?) regarding the rebuilding of Palestinian houses, which only occurred in Gaza and the West Bank.
Perhaps you have a real answer to my question.

 

[kyleb]

Let's not confuse Lebanon and the occupied territories - it's nothing short of ignorance.

You know those occupied territories have cultural and religious significance all Muslims, as we already agreed upon here. I'm also sure you know Hezbollah is looking to exchange your solders for Palestinian prisoners along with their own people. So please don't try to play this of as me being ignorant, here as that is most certainly not the case; and feigning ignorance to claim otherwise only serves to ignore my point.

My question still stands - can anyone offer an alternative way for the Israeli leadership to protect its civilians?

And my answer still stands as a practical example. In general terms I'll defer to a man much wiser than myself, Ramana Maharshi, who expanded upon an ancient Buddhist teaching with his statement; "Wanting to transform the world without discovering one's true self is like trying to cover the whole world with leather to avoid the pain of walking on stones and thorns. It is much simpler to wear shoes."

 

[Anttech]

Yonzo,

Perhaps you would like to re-read some of my post in this thread. I have given alternatives already.

Let me outline them again.

International Peace Keeping force in South Lebanon, with teeth, and the remit of bolstering up the Lebanon Governments control.

Stop all hostilities, and stop demanding the impossible right now, ie Hezbollah to disarm.

If Hostilities have to continue, appropriate human rights, must be followed, and civilians should not be targeted, and UN convoys need to not be bombed and allowed to help the 600,000 refugees and displaced civilians.

Appropriate NEUTRAL mediator between Israel and Palistein for future pull out of occupied territories.

Less lopsided politics and help from USA.

 

[Yonoz]

Yonzo,

Perhaps you would like to re-read some of my post in this thread. I have given alternatives already.

Let me outline them again.

International Peace Keeping force in South Lebanon, with teeth, and the remit of bolstering up the Lebanon Governments control.

So far there hasn't been a single agreement on such a force - no one is willing to put their troops in Lebanon - and this is during hostilities, when it's on the top of everyone's priorities! I've shown you Israel's appeals to the UN and the weak response they recieved. The ball was in the UN and Lebanon's court, and they dropped it.

Stop all hostilities, and stop demanding the impossible right now, ie Hezbollah to disarm.

Our civilians are being attacked. Do you really expect us not to defend ourselves?! You are so "understanding" to terrorists and radicals but you do not recognise this basic right of self-defence? Get some sense man, this isn't a random shooting, it's not a wave of suicide attacks. It's been two weeks, and normal life in the north of Israel is paralyzed. More than a third of the population moved away. The rest are in shelters. Businesses are closed. Public transport is intermittent. Home carers for the elderly don't show up. There aren't enough firefighters to deal with all the fires, they're only concentrating on preventing the fires from reaching population centres. No country in the world would allow this to happen.

If Hostilities have to continue, appropriate human rights, must be followed, and civilians should not be targeted, and UN convoys need to not be bombed and allowed to help the 600,000 refugees and displaced civilians.

Everything is done in accordance with international law. Civilians aren't targetted. UN convoys have been operating for over a week now. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is coordinating the relief effort with the military. One of history's largest naval evacuations took place without a hitch, in full coordination with the Navy. A few Lebanese wounded are treated in Israeli hospitals. A landing strip in Beirut has been authorized for humanitarian purposes, and the Jordanian Military used it to deploy a mobile hospital. Israel has no interest in harming the Lebanese people.

Appropriate NEUTRAL mediator between Israel and Palistein for future pull out of occupied territories.

The government has declared and began legislation for the second phase of the disengagement plan. There is mediation between Israel and the Hamas leadership regarding the cessation of hostilites in the Gaza strip and the return of kidnapped soldier.

Less lopsided politics and help from USA.

I'm not familiar with the term "lopsided politics", but it sounds like catch-phrase. Let's try and stick to the specifics. I don't see how accepting less help from the USA is beneficial to Israel. Why not just say "stop buying weapons" or "don't use shelters so you get a higher civilian death count". Makes just as much sense.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Still, I asked what alternatives there are for Israel to protect its civilians from the rockets fired out of Lebanon, and was met with not-so-much-as-an-answer-but-some-sort-of-unrelated-example(?) regarding the rebuilding of Palestinian houses, which only occurred in Gaza and the West Bank.
Perhaps you have a real answer to my question.

Sorry I had 30 seconds to answer you, I knew what you meant and was being flippant. honestly no offence intended. I was going to put a smilee on it but I never got time, very busy ATM.

I think people have already mentioned that you should have workjed with the Lebanese government from the start, I also think something as small fry as this should not of been used as an excuse to tackle Hezbollah (hezbollah needs a carefully considered strategy IMO, not a kneejerk over reaction) You mentioned that you can't always excpected to be the grown up, I disagree in the situation you are in that's what you should be trying to uphold in every situation(up 'til now the wolrd has seen /Israel as the more moderate and "grown" up party, this works in your favour in diplomatic meetings,I tihnk it's wise to always appear to be thoughtful in your approach to situations, look what happens when you don't.

Initial solution, use your experienced intelligence gorups to locate the soldiers, most likely out come to that was they are going to be killed before you find them, and creating a war in Lebanon is not exactly going to make them easy to find, if you are at least pretending what this is about you blew it by making there recovery almost impossible.

OK as Kofi Anan said in his adress to the security councli - I'm afraid I'm going to have to find this later - but he mentioned that he saw this as an excuse used by Israel to take out Hezbollah. he condemened Hezbollah straight off the bat though, he advised working towards a cease fire and condemend Israel for the civillian caualties whilst acknowledging Israels right to tackle Hezbolah, he was carefull to remain impartial, with this in mind, it might of been wise after the initial phase mentioned above to also seek out the UN and or the US and ask if it would be possible to insert a security force in the area with Israeli cooperation, in a joint land offensive to secure the area, possibly with the Help of the Labenese government also, with US logistics and methods the civillian casualties would have been much less(they are well aware of how much grief hitting hospitals etc can bring there way) Also the west would have seen a will to resolve this situation in a "diplomatic" manner at least in the planning stages. Not being an expert I have no idea if this would have been viable, but it sounds reasonable. we're all armchair generalling this one :)

 

[Anttech]

Our civilians are being attacked. Do you really expect us not to defend ourselves?! You are so "understanding" to terrorists and radicals but you do not recognise this basic right of self-defence? Get some sense man, this isn't a random shooting, it's not a wave of suicide attacks.

You are kidding yourself if you believe what is going on could be called self-defence. You have killed over 400 people in Lebanon now. Hezbollah have killed about 40 Israeli's. What is happening is you are attacking Hezbollah, using the smoke screen of self-defence, "Well they started it". You are going for the proverbial jugular. Which is very short sighted I may add.

Look I understand your basic need to defend yourselfs, but I do not understand why you are using such brutal force.

Look at the bloody stats:

600,000 people in 2 weeks have been made refugees or displaced.
400 people (mostly civilian) have been killed
All major Bridges have been destroyed, and some eyewitnesses are saying also the foundations have been bombed, which I find peculiar.
You have attacked and disrupted most Television stations
You have bombed the Beruit Airport Runway
You have completely annihilated the south of Beruit
You have attacked the UN observers
You have Bomb Civilian truck convoys
Eye witness have stated that Factories making food have been hit
Major Roads used to evacuate Displaced civilians have been hit
Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli planes

And still the US is shipping more rockets and ammo to you!

This is not self defence, its an all out attack on Lebanon.

 

[Anttech]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5219360.stm
All southerners terrorists'

He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there can be considered Hezbollah supporters.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

What a clever man.

Perhaps there are people who are too scared to leave, or physically cant. You can't give yourselfs a carte blancs to kill anybody you see.

"We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world... to continue the operation," Justice Minister Haim Ramon said.

Apart from the UN stating very clearly that the Hostilities must stop.

 

[Yonoz]

You are kidding yourself if you believe what is going on could be called self-defence. You have killed over 400 people in Lebanon now. Hezbollah have killed about 40 Israeli's. What is happening is you are attacking Hezbollah, using the smoke screen of self-defence, "Well they started it". You are going for the proverbial jugular. Which is very short sighted I may add.

Should we apologize for having too low a casualty count?!
Should we apologize for building and maintaining bomb shelters, at great expense may I add? Should we apologize for having an experienced state of the art military? Should we apologize for the fact that our population and economy are strong? Should we apologize for governing our own country? Should we apologize for Hizbullah's human shield strategy? Should we apologize for trying to stop the daily firing of dozens of rockets at our cities? THIS IS A SERIOUS RISK TO OUR CIVILIAN POPULATION. WE'RE LUCKY TO HAVE SO FEW CASUALTIES. WE'RE LUCKY NO ROCKETS LANDED IN THE PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRIES IN HAIFA. Show me one country that would behave differently when faced with such a grave threat to its citizens.

Look I understand your basic need to defend yourselfs, but I do not understand why you are using such brutal force.

It is not brutal force. See that NY Times article.

BEIRUT, Lebanon, July 24 — The Paul Restaurant is still serving elegant lunches of prosciutto and chèvre. At the Printania, an elegant hotel on a hill east of the capital, stylish guests sip Arabic coffee near a glass display case of éclairs and chilled chocolate mousse.

FYI the restaurants in Haifa are all closed.

Look at the bloody stats:

600,000 people in 2 weeks have been made refugees or displaced.

So has 1/3rd of northern Israel's population.

400 people (mostly civilian) have been killed

1400 rockets landed in Israel, each with the potential to kill a large number of people by expelling supersonic pellets to high distances. One such rocket killed 8 railway workers. Hizbullah is trying to hit the petrochemical industries in Haifa, in a hope to create an environmental disaster.

All major Bridges have been destroyed, and some eyewitnesses are saying also the foundations have been bombed, which I find peculiar.
Major Roads used to evacuate Displaced civilians have been hit.

Those are legitimate targets that have prevented the flow of more rockets and launchers closer to the border, distancing many Israelis from danger. The foundations play a major role in keeping the bridge up as you may know, it's quite probable they'd get damaged if the bridge is knocked down.

You have attacked and disrupted most Television stations

Israel has attacked Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV and radio station, and has bombed communication infrastructure such as antennae that Hizbullah uses.

You have bombed the Beruit Airport Runway

In full compliance with international law, to stop more weapons coming in and the kidnapped soldiers moved out.

You have completely annihilated the south of Beruit

Only the Dahiya neighbourhood was majorly affected and that neighbourhood was a giant Hizbullah compund.

You have attacked the UN observers
You have Bomb Civilian truck convoys

Unfortunate incidents that need to be inverstigated. Civilians and and the UN are not targetted intentionally. Entire convoys were not attacked. Many more trucks carrying weapons have also been destroyed, you don't hear that on the news, do you?

Eye witness have stated that Factories making food have been hit

Food is in no shortage in Lebanon. Eyewitness reports are not facts.

Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli planes

Absolutely false.

And still the US is shipping more rockets and ammo to you!

Of course it is. Iran is also shipping more weapons to Hizbullah. Why don't you run up to complain to them?

This is not self defence, its an all out attack on Lebanon.

False.

 

[Yonoz]

What a clever man.

Perhaps there are people who are too scared to leave, or physically cant. You can't give yourselfs a carte blancs to kill anybody you see.

Seriously, if you're still in south Lebanon it's not because you're scared or disabled.

Apart from the UN stating very clearly that the Hostilities must stop.

Then let them enforce UNSC resolution 1559.

 

[Anttech]

Should we apologize for having too low a casualty count?!

No you should apologise to lebanon for killing so many innocent people.

Should we apologize for building and maintaining bomb shelters, at great expense may I add?

No

Should we apologize for having an experienced state of the art military?

nope, but you should probably say thank-you.

Should we apologize for the fact that our population and economy are strong?

Nope

Should we apologize for governing our own country?

Nope, but you should acknowledge that your imediate neighbours are suffering, and your 'strong' population and 'strong' ecconomy should be helping them

Should we apologize for Hizbullah's human shield strategy?

No but you should not use it as an excuse, which is what you are clearly doing

Should we apologize for trying to stop the daily firing of dozens of rockets at our cities?

Nope, but your war has actually increased the amount of rockets, so you government should be appologising to you for being wrong about its tactics

Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli planes

Absolutely false.

Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli air strikes in the south. Six Lebanese Red Cross paramedics were wounded in an Israeli strike on Sunday http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5216326.stm

 

[Yonoz]

No you should apologise to lebanon for killing so many innocent people.

I've yet to see anyone apologize to Israel for Israeli civilians killed. Our civilians are purposefuly targetted, theirs aren't. We should not apologize for protecting our own civilians.

nope, but you should probably say thank-you.

I thought you were against foreign influence on countries in this region. Sudden change of heart?

Nope, but you should acknowledge that your imediate neighbours are suffering, and your 'strong' population and 'strong' ecconomy should be helping them

Oh but we are. Believe me, it would be easiest to end this quickly with a massive bombardment, without waiting for civilians to leave. We could carpet bomb entire villages like has been done by many other countries in the recent past. Instead we send our troops in, and some of them don't come back. That is a price WE PAY to avoid unnecessary civilian deaths. You don't seem to appreciate that at all.

No but you should not use it as an excuse, which is what you are clearly doing

An excuse? Shame on you. Hizbullah are attacking us from behind innocent people and now you're saying we're using that as an excuse? Is every time Israel is attacked simply an excuse to kill Arabs? Who do you think we are?

Nope, but your war has actually increased the amount of rockets, so you government should be appologising to you for being wrong about its tactics

Hahaha now we're guilty of being fired upon. Hyppocrite.

 

[Anttech]

You like to read what you want, don't you?

An excuse? Shame on you. Hizbullah are attacking us from behind innocent people and now you're saying we're using that as an excuse? Is every time Israel is attacked simply an excuse to kill Arabs? Who do you think we are?

You are Arabs with a different religion that others, but you are Arabs neither the less. You are using the fact that (disgusting as it is) hezbollah are using gurrilea warfair tactics against you, as the excuse behind the disproportional amount of Lebanese lifes that have been taken.

nope, but you should probably say thank-you.
I thought you were against foreign influence on countries in this region. Sudden change of heart?

I was being Ironic! Its part of the problem you know, the lopsided generosity that has been shown to Israel as oppose to any other ME country. People arent stupid, they see this with there own eyes. Look at Palestine, its literally, inside Israel yet it is so poor.

I've yet to see anyone apologize to Israel for Israeli civilians killed. Our civilians are purposefully targeted, theirs aren't. We should not apologize for protecting our own civilians.

Honestly, don't take this the wrong way, because it isn't directed at you: I don't believe that you (The Israli army) are not purposefully targeting civilians. This was proven to the world after you purposefully targeted a UN Observation post, using Laser guided Missiles after the Unarmed Observers had radioed to your Army 10 times they were there. That was the UN, who are protected up to the eyeballs with treaties and international coverage. I can imagine what must be happening in Beruit to ordinary noncombantants. And as a matter of fact, we don't need to imagine, we can just go and read up on the last time you shelled Beruit in the conquest of defeting the PLO.

 

[Anttech]

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel.lebanon.FINAL2.pdf

During the Bush administration, from 2001 to 2005, Israel has actually received
more in U.S. military aid than it has in U.S. arms deliveries. Over this time period
Israel received $10.5 billion in Foreign Military Financing – the Pentagon’s biggest
military aid program – and $6.3 billion in U.S. arms deliveries. The aid figure is
larger than the arms transfer figure because it includes financing for major arms
agreements for which the equipment has yet to be fully delivered. The most prominent of
these deals is a $4.5 billion sale of 102 Lockheed Martin F-16s to Israel. “When it comes
to getting arms from the U.S., Israel has money in the bank,” noted Hartung.
There are precedents for U.S. criticism of Israel’s use of weapons in human rights abuses,
including “extrajudicial killings” and “excessive use of force.” In the State Department’s
human rights reports for 2003, 2004, and 2005, incidents mentioned include missile
strikes on a refugee camp that killed six people and wounded 19; the shooting and killing
of four Palestinian children; the demolition of Palestinian homes using tank shells, heavy
machine guns, and rockets (deemed an excessive use of force); the use of rocket fire in
targeted killing of leaders of Hamas; the killing of 47 civilian bystanders in an operation
aimed at suspected terrorists in the occupied territories; and the use of tank shells,
machine-gun rounds and rockets fired from aircraft against Palestinian towns and cities

Surely This should stop until we can establish if the Israeli's are not breaking human rights laws, like what happened when Regan was in power!

During the last major Israeli incursion into Lebanon, in 1981, the Reagan administration
cut off U.S. military aid and arms deliveries for ten weeks while it investigated whether
Israel was using weapons for “defensive purposes,” as required under U.S. law.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

A few things are clear, the west has condemned Israel for it's "attrocities", UN officials visitng the area have already mentioned the breaches of humanitarian law in Israels attacks(you can specualte all you like on what that will mean) It's going to be hard to convince anyone what you did is right or justified under the considerable pressure from outside the Middle East, it's too late for that now anyway, you should be looking at damage limitation ATM, making the utmost effort to only target military targets and avoiding areas where this is not possible, maybe using small elite forces to take out areas where civillians still remain, i.e being more discriminatory. Reputation repair.

The UN cannot enforce any resolution against Israel particularly not the ones you mentioned, the US will veto any action taken against Israel atm, which is why many of the 170+ resolutions you face have never been enforced, however we appreciate when you try to conform to them of your own free will, because there is no threat implicit in them, sanctions can and will not be imposed while big brother is escalating this one sided campaign and refusing to acknowledge the existence of the other sides involved. It is plain to see that the US has moved away from a more impartial overseer and part of the blame for the middle East situation should be laid at there door for losing perspective.

Another point I'd like to make is that you guys are repeating yoursleves a fair bit, and both of you are ignoring good points made by the other. I think personally the discussion needs to move forward because playing the blame game against Israel is all very well but 20 pages later twe still haven't convinced Yonoz that what Israel did is wrong, do you think there is much chance we ever can?

OK Yonoz I put up a suggestion of how to handle the situation, it appears you had no interest in someone answering your question or that you did not like my answer, in either case can we ask what you would have done in this situation, everything the same or perhaps changed your tack? Time for you assume the position of arm chair general, since you are obviously in the most knowledgeable position, living as you do in Israel and having had experience with the situation first hand, what is it you would have done, would do now, and will do to tackle the situation in the future?

 

[Hurkyl]

You are Arabs with a different religion that others, but you are Arabs neither the less. You are using the fact that (disgusting as it is) hezbollah are using gurrilea warfair tactics against you, as the excuse behind the disproportional amount of Lebanese lifes that have been taken.

If you're going to accuse Israel if actually wanting to slaughter Lebanese citizens, then come right out and say it.