News Will Palin's VP Debate Performance Impact McCain's Campaign?

[LowlyPion]

Proximity infers interaction. The inference was so obvious that it should have been analyzed.

Specifically then what actual foreign policy experience does she have?

You have "inferred" that proximity infers interaction. Then you would infer using your own inference that her experience would be greater with Siberian Eskimos than Russian central bureaucrats in Moscow?

What has she really done or negotiated with foreign countries in the last 2 years as governor?

Why is the argument for such experience then this vague inference that Alaska is close to Russia? Is it that she can't name any actual relevant experience? Wouldn't a list of such experience be a much better argument - if there was any?

If there is none, then why would the Republicans attempt this kind of deception? Say anything to get elected? Isn't it this kind of thinking that leaves the country and the economy in the state it's in? That puts hundreds of thousands of troops in a foreign adventure dealing with a threat that was a fabrication? (Say anything to get the country to war?)

 

[seycyrus]

Specifically then what actual foreign policy experience does she have?

I have made it crystal clear from my introduction into this thread that I found the trite dismissal to be improper.

 

[seycyrus]

...adventure dealing with a threat that was a fabrication? (Say anything to get the country to war?)

This is another logical fallacy. Appeal to emotion.

 

[LowlyPion]

I have made it crystal clear from my introduction into this thread that I found the trite dismissal to be improper.

This suggests then that you have nothing to offer on her behalf?

But you take issue with others noting that the Emperor apparently has no clothes when it comes to foreign policy?

 

[seycyrus]

This suggests then that you have nothing to offer on her behalf??

I never claimed I was going to champion her foreign relations experience. You are batting 0/100 today.

 

[drankin]

This suggests then that you have nothing to offer on her behalf?

But you take issue with others noting that the Emperor apparently has no clothes when it comes to foreign policy?

In her case it will be OJT on foreign policy. As a Palin supporter, I admit that.

 

[LowlyPion]

This is another logical fallacy. Appeal to emotion.

With regard to Iraq, that argument would not be a fallacy based as it is on the failure to find weapons of mass destruction (as US intelligence analysis at the time indicated) and based on administration representations that they were there, despite not having such evidence.

I merely point it out as further evidence that Republicans will say whatever necessary to achieve a result - even outright lie.

 

[LowlyPion]

I never claimed I was going to champion her foreign relations experience.

Well then maybe a trite dismissal of that experience would actually be appropriate.

 

[seycyrus]

With regard to Iraq, that argument would not be a fallacy
...

It IS an appeal to emotion. The horrors of war at the very least. Not to mention the possible emotional appeal to those who think that *The republicans lied to us*.

C'mon. Your attempt to link this alaska piece to the the Iraq war is stretching it, waaaaaayyyy too far.

 

[seycyrus]

Well then maybe a trite dismissal of that experience would actually be appropriate.

Not for someone who wanted to make an intelligent argument.

*Very* appropriate for those who noticed that her dress didn't compliment her eyes, on the other hand.

 

[BobG]

I think there's a real chance McCain-Pallin will be perceived as the valiant underdogs fighting against the Washington establishment and a liberal media.

51% feel the media is intentionally trying to hurt Pallin's campaign (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/51_say_reporters_are_trying_to_hurt_palin_39_say_she_has_better_experience_than_obama ). Among independent voters, only 49% feel the media is trying to hurt Pallin - with the independents in the middle being the target audience. 46% say the reason is a double standard in the media where women politicians are treated worse than male politicians. All in all, 55% of voters feel media bias is a bigger problem than large campaign donations.

The double-standard issue could be an into disillusioned Clinton supporters. Being pro-life doesn't preclude attracting women Democratic voters. About 37% of Democratic women are pro-life and only 13% consider the issue a make or break issue. (Will Abortion Help or Hurt McCain - uh, no jokes about the title, please).

I don't have anything more substantial than comments by a PUMA (Darragh Murphy) that up to 10% of Clinton supporters will defect to a McCain-Pallin ticket and by Donna Brazile that less than 10% of Clinton supporters will defect to McCain-Pallin. Both using a similar number suggests probably a little less than 10%. Not a massive defection of Clinton supporters to McCain, but enough to be critical if the election is close. Obama still is the candidate of choice to women voters and will be even with Pallin on the ticket, but I'd check to see how big that margin is in the next poll taken after this week's events.

The bigger impact is going to be with independent voters siding with the underdogs. This week could turn out to be the big momentum changer in the election.

 

[BobG]

Actually, I'm kind of wondering if the media didn't shock themselves with the initial coverage of Pallin. There were a couple things in play in that coverage, including the feeling of having been shown up. Reporters aren't supposed to be taken by surprise.

After Pallin's speech, the media has suddenly been wowed by her exceptional performance last night. It was a good speech, but I kept thinking, "Was it really that good? Am I just lacking insight into these things or what?"

It's almost like the clamps have been applied because the news execs are a little worried about their credibility right now.

 

[Evo]

Actually, I'm kind of wondering if the media didn't shock themselves with the initial coverage of Pallin. There were a couple things in play in that coverage, including the feeling of having been shown up. Reporters aren't supposed to be taken by surprise.

After Pallin's speech, the media has suddenly been wowed by her exceptional performance last night. It was a good speech, but I kept thinking, "Was it really that good? Am I just lacking insight into these things or what?"

It's almost like the clamps have been applied because the news execs are a little worried about their credibility right now.

Ive seen a number of articles putting her speech down as not saying anything.

I also saw the interview with the top name reporters covering the RNC and they say that they are perfectly in line with their questions based on what she says and does.

This is also an interesting perspective from women.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/dont_they_have_birth_control_u.html

Also, have you heard the latest from the National Enquirer? I won't post it here because it's a rag, but like they said, they were right about Edwards and they say they have enough to back up that Palin had an affair with a business partner of her husbands and they said to go ahead and sue them, they are that sure. So, just another "rumour" at this time.

A non- Enquirer link to the story.
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/03/politics/fromtheroad/entry4413030.shtml

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Where's this coming from? At first, I was trying to have a straightforward discussion with Art about acceptable expression of religous convictions. Noting that any sincere religous person's actions are supposed to be shaped by belief system whish is supposed to be influenced by their religous convictions.

"Talk to God"... I suppose there are many different ways in which God can speak to people. If you mean, influencing her thoughts and beliefs, or something like that...then sure, why not.

If on the other hand, you mean in a fashion that is detectable by other human beings and/or other auditory sensors, then, No, I don't think she hears God in that way.

I bet she doesn't think she hears God in that way either, btw.

Most intelligent and thinking christians would profess the hope that they are doing the will of god, not the knowledge that they are doing the will of god. The later is in the domain of the cool aid drinkers and the spanish inquisition.

 

[LowlyPion]

It's almost like the clamps have been applied because the news execs are a little worried about their credibility right now.

I think the idea is they go on the offensive and try to frame the debate such that questions about her inexperience - (e.g. no identifiable foreign policy experience apparently) - or questions about the practice of morality in her own household, or her extreme right positions on anti-Abortion and Creationism, may be seen as attacks against her because she is a woman, when in fact they may be legitimate concerns about her qualification to hold the office

 

[mheslep]

Regards Gov. Palin's decision to return from Texas before delivering her son Trig:

http://www.adn.com/626/story/382864.html
Palin consulted that day with family physician Baldwin-Johnson:

"I don't think it was unreasonable for her to continue to travel back," Baldwin-Johnson said.

"I am not a glutton for pain and punishment. I would have never wanted to travel had I been fully engaged in labor," Palin said. After four kids, the governor said, she knew what labor felt like, and she wasn't in labor.

 

[Evo]

Regards Gov. Palin's decision to return from Texas before delivering her son Trig:

http://www.adn.com/626/story/382864.html
Palin consulted that day with family physician Baldwin-Johnson:

Whoa!

In a letter she e-mailed to relatives and close friends Friday after giving birth, Palin wrote, "Many people will express sympathy, but you don't want or need that, because Trig will be a joy. You will have to trust me on this." She wrote it in the voice of and signed it as "Trig's Creator, Your Heavenly Father."

The missing word must be God, as Pentecostals believe that God speaks through them, literally. She signed an e-mail as God?

Also in the article

Still, a Sacramento, Calif., obstetrician who is active in the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, said when a pregnant woman's water breaks, she should go right to the hospital because of the risk of infection. That's true even if the amniotic fluid simply leaks out, said Dr. Laurie Gregg.

"To us, leaking and broken, we are talking the same thing. We are talking doctor-speak," Gregg said.

Some airlines have policies against pregnant women onboard during the last four weeks of pregnancy, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists advises against flying after 36 weeks.

 

[LowlyPion]

Not for someone who wanted to make an intelligent argument.

This would be the ad hominem fallacy apparently.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Evo, I'm starting to get the feeling you're not a Sarah Palin fan.

 

[Evo]

Evo, I'm starting to get the feeling you're not a Sarah Palin fan.

Yeah, she's way too extreme. McCain I have no problem with (or hadn't) and even McCain's wife said there were a number of things she disagreed with Palin on.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/03/couricandco/entry4410837.shtml

Having someone that inflexibly biased in their opinions that close to the Presidency scares me.

 

[LowlyPion]

Things are not looking good as far as the Ethics thing goes.

Palin aide bails on talking to Legislature
...
Bailey, the governor's director of boards and commissions with a $78,500 annual salary, has been on paid leave since Aug. 19 as a result of what Palin has called a "smoking gun" conversation with a trooper lieutenant about Wooten. He is paying for his own lawyer.

http://www.adn.com/troopergate/story/515508.html

He's on paid leave to prepare for avoiding being deposed? Palin filed charges against herself to throw it into a venue run by her own appointees? A meeting that will be held in executive session?

Why all the machinations if there is "nothing to hide"? When she says she will "fully cooperate" how is it that she chose then to subvert the legislative process?

Is this the way innocent people behave?

 

[LightbulbSun]

This crowd sucks.


Mccain: I ate a peanut butter sandwich today.

Crowd: USA! USA! USA! USA!

Mccain: I took a nap at 3:00 in the afternoon.

Crowd: USA! USA! USA! USA!

Mccain: I love sex.

Crowd: USA! USA! USA! USA!

 

[drankin]

This crowd sucks.


Mccain: I ate a peanut butter sandwich today.

Crowd: USA! USA! USA! USA!

Mccain: I took a nap at 3:00 in the afternoon.

Crowd: USA! USA! USA! USA!

Mccain: I love sex.

Crowd: USA! USA! USA! USA!

That's horrible. The guy is in his 70s and they are chanting when he says he loves sex. It's... it's just wrong.

 

[LightbulbSun]

McCain: Stand up...stand up if you love rhetoric.

Crowd: USA! USA! USA!

McCain: Stand up...stand up if you want to hear me say sustain for four more years.

Crowd: USA! USA! USA!

 

[chemisttree]

Things are not looking good as far as the Ethics thing goes.

http://www.adn.com/troopergate/story/515508.html

He's on paid leave to prepare for avoiding being deposed? Palin filed charges against herself to throw it into a venue run by her own appointees? A meeting that will be held in executive session?

Why all the machinations if there is "nothing to hide"? When she says she will "fully cooperate" how is it that she chose then to subvert the legislative process?

Is this the way innocent people behave?

After what happened to DeLay, Republicans are going to look for every way to keep partisian ethics charges out of the hands of their enemies if possible.

DeLay still hasn't gone to trial.

 

[chemisttree]

Palin kept in close contact with Baldwin-Johnson. The contractions slowed to one or two an hour, "which is not active labor," the doctor said.

"Things were already settling down when she talked to me," Baldwin-Johnson said. Palin did not ask for a medical OK to fly, the doctor said.

"I don't think it was unreasonable for her to continue to travel back," Baldwin-Johnson said.

So the Palins flew on Alaska Airlines from Dallas to Anchorage, stopping in Seattle and checking with the doctor along the way.

"I am not a glutton for pain and punishment. I would have never wanted to travel had I been fully engaged in labor," Palin said. After four kids, the governor said, she knew what labor felt like, and she wasn't in labor.

http://www.adn.com/626/story/382864.html

So she consulted with her doctor who agreed that since she wasn't in active labor she could stay and then fly back. She talked to her doctor multiple times during the trip, who was aware that she had been experiencing false labor for months prior to that, and followed the advice of her doctor.


It seems that there is no clear course of action that a Doctor recommends in the event of amniotic leakage in premature situations.

If you are close to your due date and have ruptured your membranes, labor usually begins within 24 hours. If you are earlier than 36 weeks, labor is less likely. If your water breaks at term and labor has not begun, many practitioners recommend inducing labor in order to prevent infection from entering the uterus now that the protective sac has a hole in it.

If inducing labor would result in the baby being born prematurely, the benefits of induction of labor are weighed against the risks of prematurity, and often a "wait and watch" approach is taken. Your practitioner will talk to you about the pros and cons of induction of labor in your specific situation.

http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,6128,00.html

 

[Gokul43201]

Sheer, absolute brilliance!

tQzmdf74qvU[/youtube] Jon Stewart ...to be, well, to borrow from Bill-O: Pinheads!

 

[LowlyPion]

So she consulted with her doctor who agreed that since she wasn't in active labor she could stay and then fly back. She talked to her doctor multiple times during the trip, who was aware that she had been experiencing false labor for months prior to that, and followed the advice of her doctor.

With time to polish a story, I'd suspect the facts have been massaged, and the doctor's involvement amplified, to insure that there is plausible mitigation.

The fact remains that she found giving an energy speech to some Governors (like they don't get e-mail) more important than pursuing the safest delivery option of delivering right there, and then after waiting to give her speech, she travels back supposedly for some "born in Alaska" priority? Just what kind of thinking is that? Sounds like selfish/vain reasons to me.

 

[LowlyPion]

Sheer, absolute brilliance!

Jon Stewart showing Rove, O'Reilly, ... to be, well, to borrow from Bill-O: Pinheads!

Sadly we don't have time or space to list all the towns that are larger than Wasilla.

Strange that Rove - the master electoral manipulator - wouldn't know how puny Wasilla is? 2nd largest in Alaska? That's just stupid.

 

[LowlyPion]

After what happened to DeLay, Republicans are going to look for every way to keep partisian ethics charges out of the hands of their enemies if possible.

DeLay still hasn't gone to trial.

How is one Republican Ethics scoundrel a lesson to be learned for anyone with nothing to hide?

Whatever the situation, it puts the lie to her earlier statements that she would fully cooperate.

She would fully cooperate with the legislative investigation, by exploiting a tactic to report herself and have her hand picked appointees hear the issue behind closed doors? Her appointees to hear the lengths that she is capable of going to if they don't do as she wants - as was the case with firing this Moneghan in the first place?

 

[turbo]

McCain and Palin - a strange couple indeed. His state receives a pittance in earmarks (per capita) and hers is on top of the hog-pile. For someone who likes to call himself a maverick and a reformer, he sure knows how to pick 'em. He has had his own run-in with ethics problems (Keating and telecommunications lobbyists), yet he picks a running mate with an ongoing ethics investigation that she is trying to quash. Obama got a pretty decent poll bounce out of the DNC. Aside from Evangelicals, McCain's will likely be a "dead cat" bounce. Even GOP talking-heads are dissing her when they think the cameras are off.

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/27884104.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiUjc8LDyiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

 

[chemisttree]

Unfortunately your comparison is deeply flawed. The question is not whether the campaigns will use pictures of the children to sell their candidates, because they all will.

That is exactly what is at question. Did you even read the article?

The real question is the hypocrisy of forbidding discussion of this pregnancy issue as if it were somehow out of bounds, at the very moment that they would talk up their family values and wave the pregnant unwed mother under everyone's nose. As it stands the "boy" is not a child. He is 18 and as an adult talking to him is surely fair dinkum.

If you don't want a fact used at trial, don't bring it up.

You appear to have a different view of what is 'fair dinkum' than Obama.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=UA3m-g_SBY4

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It is asserted that Palin has executive experience, and Obama allegedly has none. Therefore, Palin is more qualified than Obama.

If this is a legitimate issue, then why are the Republicans running a person who has no executive experience at the top of the ticket - McCain?

 

[Astronuc]

It is asserted that Palin has executive experience, and Obama allegedly has none. Therefore, Palin is more qualified than Obama.

If this is a legitimate issue, then why are the Republicans running a person who has no executive experience at the top of the ticket - McCain?

Because McCain has experience - as a Washington insider. Oh - but wait - McCain and Palin are campaiging against Washington insiders. So then why are the handlers of McCain and Palin Washington insiders?

And if Palin is against pork from Washington, why did she accept million of dollars from Washington? Why are the lower 48 subsidizing Alaska, when Alaska is awash in tax revenue from oil?

 

[turbo]

And if Palin is against pork from Washington, why did she accept million of dollars from Washington? Why are the lower 48 subsidizing Alaska, when Alaska is awash in tax revenue from oil?

It's interesting just how much of our tax money that Alaska "needs". The taxes from oil production produce huge surpluses for the state. Alaska has no sales tax nor income tax, and can afford to hand out yearly payments amounting to a couple of thousand dollars per resident (the last time I checked) yet they are the highest per-capita recipient of our Federal tax dollars. If McCain wanted a tax-cutting reformer on his ticket, he should have looked elsewhere. Palin chaired a 527 for Ted Stevens for a couple of years, raising cash for him that would not be subject to FEC regulations. What a "reformer"!

 

[BobG]

It is asserted that Palin has executive experience, and Obama allegedly has none. Therefore, Palin is more qualified than Obama.

If this is a legitimate issue, then why are the Republicans running a person who has no executive experience at the top of the ticket - McCain?

Technically, he would have obtained some executive experience as commander of a Navy squadron.

On the other hand, poor physicals as a result of his abuse as a POW was going to prevent him from ever obtaining a major sea command, which is why he chose to retire and go into politics instead of trying to become the third straight generation of his family to obtain the rank of Admiral.

In other words, he had limited executive experience before he ever left the Navy.

In any event, the executive experience card is overplayed in this election. McCain and Palin have more than Obama and Biden, but none are exceptionally strong in that area (Palin's would probably have more credibility if Republicans quit trying to count being Mayor of Wasilla - it just gives the impression that they consider being Governor of Alaska to be a pretty weak achievement).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Technically, he would have obtained some executive experience as commander of a Navy squadron.

I would call that command experience, not executive experience. We elect civilians, not soldiers.

it just gives the impression that they consider being Governor of Alaska to be a pretty weak achievement).

Governer of a state of 660,000... That is considered a small city where I come from.

 

[turbo]

Palin's would probably have more credibility if Republicans quit trying to count being Mayor of Wasilla - it just gives the impression that they consider being Governor of Alaska to be a pretty weak achievement.

The mayor of Wasilla has to preside over council meetings, but cannot vote IIR, and acts as the ceremonial head of town government. Previous mayors had been able to perform the mayor's duties by themselves, but Palin had to hire a town manager to take over many of her "duties". So much for being a skilled executive. I also read that she left Wasilla with over $19M in long-term debt, despite the pork that got shoveled her way.

Palin, who portrays herself as a fiscal conservative, racked up nearly $20 million in long-term debt as mayor of the tiny town of Wasilla — that amounts to $3,000 per resident. She argues that the debt was needed to fund improvements.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12987.html

 

[LowlyPion]

You appear to have a different view of what is 'fair dinkum' than Obama.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=UA3m-g_SBY4

Likely I do. And that is the beauty of the American system. The Press is certainly not bound by Obama's wishes, just as they are not bound by Palin's. If the Republicans want to make Bristol a poster child for unwed motherhood and splash Palin about as an icon of family virtuous values, then I'd say the public has as much right to the back-story, as the campaign would use it in hagiographic terms to seek the public's vote.

The public is entitled to its own vetting of what she stands for and exactly how honest she is.

The fact that Levi is 18 means that he is legally of age and makes him fair game as far as I am concerned - Obama's wishes notwithstanding.

As to what I think is the rather sanctimonious monologue spewed by the Pfotenhofer woman in the clip you linked to, I'd say her situational hypocrisy is on ample display in the Jon Stewart piece seen earlier here.

tQzmdf74qvU[/youtube]

 

[LowlyPion]

Speaking of fair dinkum, here's how Sydney paper reported on the reported Palin affair by the National Enquirer.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/us-elect...y-a-vicious-lie/2008/09/04/1220121383123.html

 

[LowlyPion]

For information only for any that didn't see the cover of the National Enquirer:

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm157/THESPREADIT/nationalenquirersarahpalinstorycove.jpg

This is what the references have been to.

 

[BobG]

I would call that command experience, not executive experience. We elect civilians, not soldiers.



Governer of a state of 660,000... That is considered a small city where I come from.

Not to be nitpicky, but a city of 660,000 is huge! Only Texas (6) and California (4) have more than one city that big. In fact, there's only 19 cities in the whole US that big.

Together, the 19 cities of 660,000 or bigger comprise 10% of the US population. Hence the reasoning that comments like Giuliani's might work well for 90% of the population.

Okay, that's probably an exaggeration since the cities over 500,000 are pretty big, too. That's another 15 cities. Taking pot shots at the big city folks still goes over well with around 85% of the US population.

When it comes to perception, most people would consider being Governor of Alaska the equivalent of being Governor of Texas or Governor of Arkansas if Republicans didn't feel nervous enough to toss being mayor of a city of 9,000 in there (and I think a lot of Republicans running the campaign are definitely nervous about her - most of them are big city folks, themselves).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Not to be nitpicky, but a city of 660,000 is huge! Only Texas (6) and California (4) have more than one city that big.

I grew up in California [Los Angeles area]. In either case, we are talking about a State that has the population of a city.

The irony for me that adminstrative experience is the least of my concerns. Obama will have peons for those duties. The job of the President is to stay focused on the big problems; not to be a bean counter. In fact, that is one trait that really worried me about Hillary: Her range of [philosophical] vision was too limited.

 

[LowlyPion]

Looks like Gallup isn't seeing as big a swing so far for Republican convention:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/110065/Gallup-Daily-Obamas-Lead-Now-Points.aspx

Obama 48% - McCain 44%

Apparently Monday should see most all of whatever effects there will be.

 

[baywax]

Looks like Gallup isn't seeing as big a swing so far for Republican convention:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/110065/Gallup-Daily-Obamas-Lead-Now-Points.aspx

Obama 48% - McCain 44%

Apparently Monday should see most all of whatever effects there will be.

Take your pick: go with a dream or go with dementia.

 

[quadraphonics]

Not to be nitpicky, but a city of 660,000 is huge! Only Texas (6) and California (4) have more than one city that big.

Not really. Those numbers are artifacts of the dated delineation of city limits, and the fact that lots of the population growth over the past decades has been in the suburbs and exurbs, which often lie outside the city limits. If you instead account by metropolitan statistical areas, which depend only on population density and economic interaction, you'll find that there are more than 80 metropolitan areas in the US with populations that exceed 600,000. Those 80+ MSA's easily account for an overwhelming majority of the US population. I.e., Alaska is a state with a population comparable to the Wichita metro area:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

 

[quadraphonics]

When it comes to perception, most people would consider being Governor of Alaska the equivalent of being Governor of Texas or Governor of Arkansas

Arkansas, sure: like Alaska, it's an insignificant backwater that is heavily dependent on Federal largesse. But Texas? Not even close. Texas is one of the largest, fastest-growing, most influential states in the Union.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Looks like Gallup isn't seeing as big a swing so far for Republican convention:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/110065/Gallup-Daily-Obamas-Lead-Now-Points.aspx

Obama 48% - McCain 44%

Apparently Monday should see most all of whatever effects there will be.

Election polls are bogus, I hope you realize this.

 

[russ_watters]

Though the bumps are both pretty small, it isn't too surprising that Obama's was bigger - he's the more energetic public speaker and Democrats respond more to that type of thing anyway.

We'll see how it settles-out over the next week or two.

[edit] In any case, I like USA Today's "Poll Tracker" because it puts them all on one graph. Interestingly, it doesn't show a convention bump for either of them (though they are a couple of days behind): http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/poll-tracker.htm

 

[Evo]

Election polls are bogus, I hope you realize this.

Bogus? As opposed to non bogus polls? Explain why you think these polls are any different than any other opinion polls.