X = p * y. Find x, y when both are as close to 1 as possible

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding values for x and y in the equation x = p * y, where p is a constant in the range (0, 1] and both x and y are constrained to the range (0, 2]. Participants aim to determine x and y such that both are as close to 1 as possible, exploring various mathematical approaches and methods.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the solution might be x = 1 and y = sqrt(p), but expresses uncertainty about proving this.
  • Another participant clarifies the meaning of the ranges for p, x, and y, and proposes setting p = 1 to simplify the problem.
  • A participant states that for a given x, y can be expressed as y = x/p, and introduces a function w to minimize.
  • Another participant corrects an earlier mistake and proposes a different expression for w, suggesting that the solution is x = p(p+1)/(p^2+1), indicating that x is not equal to sqrt(p).
  • One participant raises a new question about minimizing w under a different constraint involving a polynomial equation without explicitly solving for y.
  • A suggestion is made to use Lagrange multipliers to find the minimum of w while considering the constraint, detailing the necessary equations and relationships.
  • Another participant agrees that the method of Lagrange multipliers is a viable approach and mentions the possibility of finding numeric solutions using software if parameters are known.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correct approach to finding x and y, with no consensus on the best method or solution. Multiple competing models and strategies are presented, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully resolved the implications of their mathematical formulations, and there are dependencies on specific values of p, x, and y that may affect the outcomes. The discussion includes various assumptions and conditions that have not been universally accepted.

simplex1
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Knowing that:

x = p * y where p = (0, 1] and x, y = (0, 2]

find x and y in such a way that both of them be as close as possible to 1 simultaneously.

I guess that the solution is x = 1/y = sqrt(p) but I do not know how to prove it.
 
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simplex1 said:
Knowing that:

x = p * y where p = (0, 1] and x, y = (0, 2]
What does p = (0, 1] mean? What does x, y = (0, 2] mean? Does the first one mean ##x \in (0, 1]##?
Can you pick p = 1, and then let x = y = 1?
simplex1 said:
find x and y in such a way that both of them be as close as possible to 1 simultaneously.

I guess that the solution is x = 1/y = sqrt(p) but I do not know how to prove it.
 
- Yes, x,y=(0,2] means x∈(0,2] and y∈(0,2].
- p is a given constant. In my specific case p = 0.457.
 
Since p is a constant, then for a given x value, the y value is y = x/p = x/.457 .
If you let w = (x - 1)2 + (x/.457 - 1)2, you're looking for the value of x that minimizes w.

Edited above to fix my earlier mistake.
 
Last edited:
I believe it should be w(x) = (x - 1)^2 + (x/p - 1)^2 = minim which has the solution:
x = p(p+1)/(p^2+1)
It appears that x is not sqrt(p).
 
simplex1 said:
I believe it should be w(x) = (x - 1)^2 + (x/p - 1)^2 = minim
Yes, I switched p and x due to a silly mistake on my part. I have edited my earlier post.
simplex1 said:
which has the solution:
x = p(p+1)/(p^2+1)
It appears that x is not sqrt(p).
 
I want now to minimize ## w(x) = (x - 1)^2 + (y - 1)^2 ## knowing that ## px^3+qx^2y+rxy^2+ty^3=0 ## but without solving the equation to obtain y as a function of x and then replace it in ## w(x) ## because this appears to be impractical. Is it possible?
 
Use "Lagrange multipliers". Since [itex]w(x,y)= (x- 1)^2+ (y- 1)^2[/itex], [itex]\nabla w= 2(x- 1)\vec{i}+ 2(y- 1)\vec{j}[/itex]. Writing the constraint as [itex]f(x,y)= px^3+ qx^2y+ rxy^2+ ty^3[/itex], [itex]\nabla f= (3px^2+ 2qxy+ ry^2)\vec{i}+ (qx^2+ 3rxy+ 3ty^3)\vec{j}[/itex]. At a max or min of w, with constraint f, those two gradient vectors must be parallel. That is, there must exist a number, [itex]\lambda[/itex] (the "Lagrange Multiplier") such that [itex]2(x- 1)\vec{i}+ 2(y- 1)\vec{j}[/itex][itex]= \lambda[(3px^2+ 2qxy+ ry^2)\vec{i}+ (qx^2+ 3rxy+ 3ty^3)]\vec{j}[/itex].

That gives the equations [itex]2(x- 1)= \lambda (3px^2+ 2qxy+ ry^2)[/itex] and [itex]2(y- 1)= \lambda(qx^2+ 3rxy+ 3y^3)[/itex] which, together with the constraint, give three equations to solve or x, y, and [itex]\lambda[/itex]. Since a value for [itex]\lambda[/itex] is not part of the solution to this problem, I find that it is often simplest to first eliminate [itex]\lambda[/itex] by dividing one equation by the other. Dividing the first of those two equations by the second,
[tex]\frac{2(x- 1)}{2(y- 1}= \frac{3px^2+ 2qxy+ ry^2}{qx^2+ 2rxy+ 3ty^3}[/tex].

That is, of course, equivalent to [tex](x- 1)(qx^2+ 2rxy+ 3ty^3)= (y- 1)(3px^2+ 2qxy+ ry^2)[/tex].
 
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Yes, the method of Lagrange is a good idea because numeric solutions for x and y can be found with Mathcad if the parameters are known. Thank you all for your help.
 

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