Daisy-chained, parallel or series? (failed outlets in home)

[fog37]

TL;DR Summary

which connection is used for household electrical outlets

Hello Forum,

Some of my electrical outlets (3) in the kitchen stopped working (one of them is a GFCI outlet). Reading online, I found out that outlets are generally connect in a daisy-chain fashion and if one goes back they all stop working. See the figure below showing a daisy chain connection:

The connection in the figure above looks like a parallel connection (which in general assures that if a component breaks all other keep working).
But if the first device (green) in the figure break, then I believe the other two will also stop working. So this daisy chain connection is not a true parallel neither a series connection. It is more like a parallel connection but if one device breaks some of the other ones also stop functioning...

Is that correct? If so, I am trying to identify which of the three outlets is actually broken and replace it..

Thanks!

 

[berkeman]

Do the Test and Reset functions on the GFCI outlet still work, or is it refusing to reset? Do you have any GFCI breakers in your breakerbox?

Do you have an outlet tester with GFCI test capability? They are inexpensive, and very handy for debugging problems like this.

Have you ever replaced an outlet before? Do you know what-all you need to do in order to do it safely?

https://www.electricalbasics.com/electrical-testers/receptacle-outlet-gfci-tester

 

[berkeman]

Oh, and what-all was plugged into these outlets when the circuit failed? Is everything now unplugged as you try to get the circuit working again?

 

[hutchphd]

GFCI outlets typically are wired to interrupt both the attached outlet and all downstream outlets. Those further away from the box.
The ground fault is also detected universally downstream.

 

[fog37]

Hello and thanks for all the help.

• There are 3 outlets in the kitchen. One of them is GFCI. None of them works.
• I turned the specific breaker to OFF and the fridge also goes off so the fridge outlet must be part of the 3 outlet daisy chain but that works: when I turn the breaker ON, the fridge works but the 3 outlets do not.
• Cell phones were typically attached to the GFCI outlet. I replaced the GFCI outlet with a new one but nothing works.
• The GCFI has two hots wires and two white returns so it is line and load configuration.

 

[hutchphd]

How do you know there is only one circuit to the kitchen? My guess is that there may be another breaker controlling the GFCI outlet and its buddies? Possible? Its good practice to put the fridge on an isolated line.
The other handy tool for tracing circuits from a box is a plug -in radio...

 

[fog37]

dunno :)

I guess the specific switch that I turn ON/OFF at the breaker could control one, two, or more circuits.

My plan was to replace the other two outlets since I have already replaced the GFCI and things still don't work.

When I installed the new GFCI, I tried to press the test/reset but it was not working either. I am pretty sure I wired it correctly, the same way the previous GFCI was wired...

 

[hutchphd]

No I mean there may be more than one breaker (and circuit) running to the kitchen. Possible?

 

[fog37]

Yes. At the breaker, there are multiple switches for the kitchen (some are other outlets, etc.)

 

[hutchphd]

It sounds like one of them is tripped still tripped. Why do you think the fridge and GFCI are on same breaker?

 

[fog37]

It sounds like one of them is tripped still tripped. Why do you think the fridge and GFCI are on same breaker?

Because when I turn off the specific switch that I know controls the 3 outlet, the fridge turns off...

 

[hutchphd]

How do you know it controls the 3 outlet?

 

[fog37]

How do you know it controls the 3 outlet?

Because there are 3 not working outlets all located sequentially near each other, in the kitchen, by the backsplash...

 

[berkeman]

Because there are 3 not working outlets all located sequentially near each other, in the kitchen, by the backsplash...

Hutch is asking how you know that specific breaker controls those outlets. Are you familiar with how to check your breakerbox for a popped breaker? It may not look tripped visually (depends on the type of breaker). The best way is to push each breaker arm toward the ON position firmly, and see if any of them feel springy. For many of the breakers I deal with, they only move a small amount when tripped. The only way to check them is to see if they feel springy. If one does feel springy, turn it OFF and then back to ON.

Are there any other outlets in the house that are not working? At least in the US, as far as I know it would be a code violation to use the refrigerator circuit to also power other outlets -- by code it is supposed to be a dedicated circuit, AFAIK...

 

[fog37]

I am confident I pushed the breaker arm towards OFF and towards ON firmly. Will try again. When on OFF, also the refrigerator turns off hence its outlet is connected to the other 3 outlets that are not working...

 

[berkeman]

No, my point was to check all of the *other* breakers in the panel.

If the outlets kept "not working" when you turned the fridge breaker OFF and ON, that does not mean they are on the same circuit...

 

[fog37]

Ok. I see. Wil try and report back. Thanks!

 

[fog37]

No, my point was to check all of the *other* breakers in the panel.

If the outlets kept "not working" when you turned the fridge breaker OFF and ON, that does not mean they are on the same circuit...

Hello, I tried all other breaks and no luck. Also, now I remember, the outlets stopped working for 5-6 hrs. Then worked again. No don't work at all...Something loose? Would replace the other two outlets possibly solve it? One of them may be damaged. I already replaced the GFCI one but no luck...

 

[berkeman]

I wouldn't replace other outlets right now. It does sound like a wire connection came loose somewhere.

What room is in the other side of the wall with the dead outlets? Living room, bathroom, etc.? Do the outlets on the other side of that wall all work?

Do you have access to the attic? What kind of house/apartment is this? Multi-story or one story?

If you have access to the attic, you may be able to trace the power cables from the breaker box (in the garage?) to the top of the kitchen wall. If you can do that, you can check the the junction box at the top of the wall to see if it looks like all the wire nut connections are okay.

 

[berkeman]

One of them may be damaged.

I missed this. What do you mean by "damaged"?

 

[berkeman]

[Mentor Note -- Moved the thread from EE to the DIY forum]

 

[fog37]

I missed this. What do you mean by "damaged"?

Just using "damaged" loosely for "not working". Why wouldn't a loose connection be a possibility given that they did not work, then work, then stop working again?

 

[hutchphd]

Did the other GFCI ever indicate with a light a ground fault?
So you are certain the wire goes... breaker box-----fridge------GFCI----outlet-----outlet?
If so the problem is somewhere in red and you may now have a spare GFCI. Start at the easiest spot to open and start checking the wires in red for volts. Probably at a connection.

 

[DaveE]

The other handy tool for tracing circuits from a box is a plug -in radio.

OK, I've been a bona-fide Analog & PS EE for 40 years. I completely rewired my kitchen and garage without any complaints from the building inspectors. But, I never knew this trick. I always used lamps, then I had to walk back and forth to see if they were on or not. Thanks, you simultaneously saved me a bunch of work someday in the future and made me feel like an idiot!

 

[hutchphd]

I saw it on TV about 30 yrs ago. I had exactly the same DOH! response. I never forget a labor saving tip.

 

[DaveE]

OK, my apologies if I have misunderstood. But... If you don't know all about how normal GFCI outlets are wired, via web searches or DIY books, then you shouldn't be messing with this. I don't think the wiring is at all difficult to understand. By skipping the research and education part of this project you are taking unnecessary risk. Honestly the basic concepts are easy to apply, and we may misunderstand your question and give bad advice or think we know more than we do. Some things are easy to understand and HAVE TO be done correctly.

OTOH, I haven't seen bad advice in this thread (yet).

 

[fog37]

Did the other GFCI ever indicate with a light a ground fault?
So you are certain the wire goes... breaker box-----fridge------GFCI----outlet-----outlet?
If so the problem is somewhere in red and you may now have a spare GFCI. Start at the easiest spot to open and start checking the wires in red for volts. Probably at a connection.

That is what I thought: a faulty GFCI. But when I replaced it with a new one the problem remained. I will get a voltmeter and check the volts...

 

[hutchphd]

Could be the connection at the fridge outlet too. No other junctions, probably. But I lived in one house where I found aluminum wires twisted onto copper wires inside the wall cavity with no box. So you never know.

 

[fog37]

Could be the connection at the fridge outlet too. No other junctions, probably. But I lived in one house where I found aluminum wires twisted onto copper wires inside the wall cavity with no box. So you never know.

Could be. Need to move the fridge. Hard for me to know the exact wiring. It came with the house so I am not sure. I see how GFCI work: it senses small difference between the current in (hot wire) and the current out (white wire). If there is a difference, the GFCI interrupts the circuit.

That is why it would makes sense that the problem was the GFCI outlet. Unless the refrigerator is also connected to a GFCI (need to move the fridge) and that is faulty...But how would the refrigerator work while the other daisy chained outlet don't?

 

[berkeman]

Unless the refrigerator is also connected to a GFCI (need to move the fridge) and that is faulty

No, unless the electrician who wired the house was a complete idiot and did not have the installation inspected for code approvals, that would not be possible.

 

[hutchphd]

Check the easy stuff first (voltage into GFCI) . And I wouldn't put the fridge downstream of GFCI because I like ice cream. But the line (both hot and neutral) from fridge outlet to the GFCI is primary culprit in my mind including all connections.

 

[fog37]

Check the easy stuff first (voltage into GFCI) . And I wouldn't put the fridge downstream of GFCI because I like ice cream. But the line (both hot and neutral) from fridge outlet to the GFCI is primary culprit in my mind including all connections.

Same here about ice-cream :) But if the line is the culprit, then I guess I need to call an electrician. I wouldn't know how to repair a broken line that is inside the wall. So far I can only replace outlets...

 

[Klystron]

I saw it on TV about 30 yrs ago. I had exactly the same DOH! response. I never forget a labor saving tip.

I must have RF on my mind.

Until DaveE clarified the method; after skimming the posts, I thought hutch meant to use radio frequencies to troubleshoot ac circuit 'damage'. IDK, perhaps TDR (time-domain reflectometry) for home wiring? Set up rf tx/rx to detect ac circuits...? I--D--K

I also use electric lights for basic testing. Used to carry a simple 'light up' detector in my pocket to test before touching something 'hot'. My earliest EE mentor was deaf in one ear and hard of hearing in the other -- I had to explain stereo sound to him -- and professionally, I often worked in high noise environments. So, never thought of using a radio. Also, I like reflecting the light off surfaces such as ceilings to detect changes at a distance. Still, what a great idea.

Imagine "Inna Gadda da Vida" blasting at max decibels for testing AC circuits; "Ding-Dong the Witch is Dead" sung by munchkins with Alvin and the chipmunks as backup band, for DC.

 

[berkeman]

Until DaveE clarified the method; after skimming the posts, I thought hutch meant to use radio frequencies to troubleshoot ac circuit 'damage'. IDK, perhaps TDR (time-domain reflectometry) for home wiring? Set up rf tx/rx to detect ac circuits...? I--D--K

LOL, that's too funny.

Although you are right, you could use a TDR/cable tester to figure out how far from the breaker panel the wiring problem was. You'd still need to crawl through the attic to measure the cables and find it though.

 

[DaveE]

Hard for me to know the exact wiring. It came with the house so I am not sure.

That's always the hardest part of these jobs. You know and expect the "normal configuration", but that's not always what the guy before you thought "normal" was.