Mathematical Finance Program at UofT

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

I just got of the phone with departement and I have heard good things about the program.

Pros

• I may not need to retake math courses I already took in engineering.
• The program is only one year. 4 months school, 4 months internship and 4 months school.
• Department has 100% sucess rate of finding internship apppointments.
• I am coming from an EE program with a bit of programming (assembly, very little object oriented(java) , some c and maybe others in 4th year).
• Typical entrance average is around A- but I know that would not guarantee admission.

Cons

• Program is extremely competitive only 30 spots .
• Tuition is 40K but "guaranteed" 17K "rebate" by the company you do intership for. No other internal funding. You have to apply for other graduate grants of whatever they are called.
• Program goes at a very quick pace so no time to review old things ( that's why I am thinking of retaking some courses since the engineering version was watered down).

I have read a lot of post from twofish-quant saying how "bad" MMF programs are but it seems like I would enjoy this one. Also, if things don't work out I could always run back to engineering.:tongue2:

Does anyone have an experience with the MMF program at UofT( University of Toronto)?

Any advice for me? Good or bad, I still want to hear it.

 

[Kevin_Axion]

I don't know anything other then the program is generally liked by those that want to get into quantitative finance.

 

[General_Sax]

Tuition is 40K but "guaranteed" 17K "rebate" by the company you do intership for. No other internal funding. You have to apply for other graduate grants of whatever they are called.

red flag. I don't like this. It seems like they're ripping people off.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

I don't know anything other then the program is generally liked by those that want to get into quantitative finance.

Do you know anyone in particular who went through the program and where they are currently?
What they hated/liked about the program...etc

red flag. I don't like this. It seems like they're ripping people off.

All Masters of Mathematics finance / "quant-finance" programs are the same price.I checked other schools, the cheaper ones are in the states but I would have to pay for rent and other related cost. I live about 1hr 30 mins away from uofT st george campus.
So I can live at home and eat food from home and I don't want to work in the states.

 

[lurky]

I personally disagree with super expensive programs like that. I'm not surprised that U of T is offering it as they've got the biggest institutional ego I've ever seen.

If you go, you may want to seriously consider moving closer as that's quite a commute. I know because I've done it and it was really hard.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

I personally disagree with super expensive programs like that. I'm not surprised that U of T is offering it as they've got the biggest institutional ego I've ever seen.

If you go, you may want to seriously consider moving closer as that's quite a commute. I know because I've done it and it was really hard.

My current school is less than 10mins away from UofT so I have been commuting that distance for 3 years.

I did some more research and schulich (York Univ) also has a similar program but for some reason they call it w diploma. I am also uncertain about which one is better but from online rankings it seems UofT has the upper hand.

I am still looking for the tuition cost at schulich.

 

[Kevin_Axion]

U of T is 17th in the world, which is very respectable, but most of the time these rankings are meaningless.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

U of T is 17th in the world, which is very respectable, but most of the time these rankings are meaningless.

Yeah, I am aware of that. I am choosing uoft because I might want to take a couple of math classes before I apply to the program and uoft has a very strong math program.

Also it is either uoft or york since I don't want to move away from toronto.

I never really liked york so yeah.

 

[Kevin_Axion]

Well, I want to go to U of T for their Mathematics and Physics Specialist Program. I'm trying to figure out their admission averages for that program I can't seem to find them anywhere.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

Well, I want to go to U of T for their Mathematics and Physics Specialist Program. I'm trying to figure out their admission averages for that program I can't seem to find them anywhere.

Are you transferring or straight from high school ? I believe the highbschool average is around 85% I got into the math program at uoft when I applied from high school. I think should should be the same for the specialist program since first year is mostly common.

Averages does mean much considering most of the people in that program are gifted... a lot of them were on the math or physics olympiad team.

 

[Kevin_Axion]

Well, I'm only in grade 11 and I have higher then an 85% so I'm pretty certain I could get in. To be honest, I hate competitions. I do well in them, for instance I've made it to provincials for DECA and I received honourable mention (1 of 6) during an MUN conference where everyone else was university students. My school doesn't have any physics related contests except for the Newton Exam. I love physics but it isn't something I'm eager on proving in some competition. I'm sorry if all of the competition stuff sounds conceited or a form of "bragging". I think I have good chances though.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

Well, I'm only in grade 11 and I have higher then an 85% so I'm pretty certain I could get in. To be honest, I hate competitions. I do well in them, for instance I've made it to provincials for DECA and I received honourable mention (1 of 6) during an MUN conference where everyone else was university students. My school doesn't have any physics related contests except for the Newton Exam. I love physics but it isn't something I'm eager on proving in some competition. I'm sorry if all of the competition stuff sounds conceited or a form of "bragging". I think I have good chances though.

Ohh nice. Not going too much offtopic, competition problems are different than university problems and it doesn't guarantee a student would do well in advanced courses at uni. Just a heads up.

My advice to you is to build your problem solving skills and start studying advanced courses on your own; that's something I wish I had done. Too bad I barely had proper education. :-(

 

[Kevin_Axion]

Well, I've learned calculus, some multi-variable calculus, some vector calculus, taylor series (I actually have my brother's Stewart Calculus book - the one that weighs over 30 pounds) which I look at sometimes. I'm going to begin reading The Road to Reality by Roger Penrose. The MUN competition was actually at York, I was going to go to the U of T one in February but I handed in my money too late. Anyways, I digress.

 

[twofish-quant]

red flag. I don't like this. It seems like they're ripping people off.

I'd be *seriously* worried about talking on debt for a mathematical finance program. There are a lot more applicants than jobs right now.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

I'd be *seriously* worried about talking on debt for a mathematical finance program. There are a lot more applicants than jobs right now.

Are you talking about Canada or in general ?

When I spoke to the department assistant(lady on the phone) she said there there is high demand for quants in Ontario and they have a 100% placement record. I won't put it past them to make up numbers but when they only take in 30 students per year it seems plausible.


If everything works out the way I am planning it, I may not need to take out a loan and even if I do, it would only be around 10k. I will be working for a power company over the summer and if all goes well they might be able to sponsor some of my education and I also have my parents .

But I am still worried, the tuition is extremely high. I don't know what other choice I have. I don't really want to do grad school in Engineering unless it's my only choice.

You seem to have a strong dislike for the MMF program... why is that ? Flexibility ?

From your comment, I feel like the program isn't worth anything.

 

[twofish-quant]

Are you talking about Canada or in general ?

In general. Something that you should know about quant jobs is that 95% of the jobs are in either NYC, London, or some asian financial center. Also most quantitative finance positions are glorified computer programmers.

When I spoke to the department assistant(lady on the phone) she said there there is high demand for quants in Ontario and they have a 100% placement record.

I'd ask politely to speak with some alumni.

a) There isn't a high demand for quants in Ontario that I'm aware of. All of the jobs that I know about are in NYC, London, or HK/Tokyo/Singapore. Outside of those areas, there is a lot of backend software work and some portfolio management, but you'd be better off with a CS or Finance degree.

b) I'd be a little suspicion of a 100% placement claim. A lot of the jobs are very poorly paid internships. Also, a lot of people with mathematical finance degrees get basically the same job that they would have gotten without the degree.

But I am still worried, the tuition is extremely high. I don't know what other choice I have. I don't really want to do grad school in Engineering unless it's my only choice.

You can do a masters in statistics or applied mathematics. There's also finance, law school, and management. The problem I have with financial mathematics degrees is that you get the same sorts of jobs that you would with a masters in statistics or applied mathematics, except with those other degrees you have options if the financial markets sink.

You seem to have a strong dislike for the MMF program... why is that ? Flexibility ?

Because they don't provide value for money.

You do have to be careful with my opinions since I'm seeing only one part of the picture. What I think is really important is that you talk to people that have gone through the program to see what they think.

 

[Kevin_Axion]

Toronto has the third largest financial district after Chicago and New York City in North America.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

In general. Something that you should know about quant jobs is that 95% of the jobs are in either NYC, London, or some asian financial center. Also most quantitative finance positions are glorified computer programmers.

Good food for thought! As for programming, I won't mind been a programmer if I get a decent pay check (70k would be good).

Perhaps the kind of "quant" jobs I have heard of in Canada are portfolio management and risk stuff... these are jobs available at banks. Or am I mistaken ?

I'd ask politely to speak with some alumni.

That would be my priority tommorow.

a) There isn't a high demand for quants in Ontario that I'm aware of. All of the jobs that I know about are in NYC, London, or HK/Tokyo/Singapore. Outside of those areas, there is a lot of backend software work and some portfolio management, but you'd be better off with a CS or Finance degree.

As long as the jobs pays reasonable well and I get to do things that I enjoy I don't mind. I actually don't want the kind of job in NYC that pays 150k with all the stress.

I'll be happy in a small bank doing some background software stuff as long as the pay is not less than I would get in engineering.

b) I'd be a little suspicion of a 100% placement claim. A lot of the jobs are very poorly paid internships. Also, a lot of people with
mathematical finance degrees get basically the same job that they would have gotten without the degree.



You can do a masters in statistics or applied mathematics. There's also finance, law school, and management. The problem I have with financial mathematics degrees is that you get the same sorts of jobs that you would with a masters in statistics or applied mathematics, except with those other degrees you have options if the financial markets sink.

The thing that attracts me the most to the MMF program is that it combines math and programming together and I can get a masters in 1 year.

The other programs you mentioned don't interest me at all; I would be happier in engineering.

Also the way I see it finance can't "sink". People would always be needed, however, the market can get saturated. In the economic crisis finance didn't sink instead the market became "saturated" at an unsually point making it difficult for new people to get in and some people to retain their jobs.

Quants jobs exist because of computers and some rich men. Since thoes two things would never cease to exist then how can quant jobs ? The way I see it demand can go down but the industry can't die.

Even engineering can "sink"; actually EE, CE has sunk in north america but that doesn't mean there are no jobs. You basically have to adjust.

If finance is no longer hiring, I will have an engineering degree, some programming ability and a brain. Hence, I will adjust and look for something else to do.

Because they don't provide value for money.

You do have to be careful with my opinions since I'm seeing only one part of the picture. What I think is really important is that you talk to people that have gone through the program to see what they think.

I am going to call up the department again and see if I can speak to alumni. If things turn out to be bad i'll go back to EE.

 

[twofish-quant]

Perhaps the kind of "quant" jobs I have heard of in Canada are portfolio management and risk stuff... these are jobs available at banks. Or am I mistaken ?

Yes they are, but for those, you may be better off getting a masters in finance than a degree in mathematical finance. One problem with mathematical finance degrees is that they were focused a lot on exotic derivatives pricing, and that's sort of blown up. Which poses the other problem that the type of math that is in demand can change from year to year or even month to month.

Right now banks are hiring a lot of risk people to comply with new regulations. Six months from now, things could be different

Also the way I see it finance can't "sink". People would always be needed

Finance can sink. Also even when you need people, you can find them in China and India.

Also, just a piece of advice. If you want to go into financial risk the words that never should leave your lips is "this bad thing can't happen." If you want to be good at risk, you have to think of everything that could possible go wrong.

In the economic crisis finance didn't sink instead the market became "saturated" at an unsually point making it difficult for new people to get in and some people to retain their jobs.

Finance didn't sink because people made some snap decisions that keep the system from totally imploding. We were probably a week at most from a Second Great Depression and a total collapse of the financial system. By total collapse, I mean that you go to the ATM and nothing comes out.

Quants jobs exist because of computers and some rich men. Since thoes two things would never cease to exist then how can quant jobs ?

Well... No...

Rich people can get poor. Also one reason I like finance a lot is that I like to ask stupid questions that aren't that stupid. What is space? What is time? What is money? What is wealth? I go to the ATM, put in my card, and colored bits of paper come out. I take those colored bits of paper, and I give it to someone, and they give me a slice of pizza.

That's really bizarre. What *really* happens? As with most questions, the more you know, the less you understand. The more I think about time, the less I understand it. Same thing with money. But sometimes the most important thing to understand is how little you understand.

If finance is no longer hiring, I will have an engineering degree, some programming ability and a brain. Hence, I will adjust and look for something else to do.

Sure, and it helps a lot if while you are looking you aren't dealing with massive debt. If you can take the MF course and not incur too much debt, then that's great! It's great because you take the course, take a risk, and if it works out, you make $$$ and if you lose than you aren't in horrible shape.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

Yes they are, but for those, you may be better off getting a masters in finance than a degree in mathematical finance. One problem with mathematical finance degrees is that they were focused a lot on exotic derivatives pricing, and that's sort of blown up. Which poses the other problem that the type of math that is in demand can change from year to year or even month to month.

When I looked at the courses it seemed like the program was actually providing a broad base.

Perhaps, to my untrained eyes it seemed that way.

If you have a little time can you please check out the link below and tell me what you think.
http://www.mmf.utoronto.ca/fall.html#course1"

http://www.mmf.utoronto.ca/winter.html"

http://www.mmf.utoronto.ca/summer.html"

Sure, and it helps a lot if while you are looking you aren't dealing with massive debt. If you can take the MF course and not incur too much debt, then that's great! It's great because you take the course, take a risk, and if it works out, you make $$$ and if you lose than you aren't in horrible shape.

Also I was unable to reach the department today. The line was busy everytime I tried so I didn't speak to any alumni.I checked out a couple of Masters of Finance programs around me and they all still have the obscene 40K tuition or more. Besides, most of them require GMAT and 2 years work experience in Finance. I don't see how I can get 2 years worth of work experience in finance with an engineering degree. Also most of them don't offer internship placements.

Again, this is why I am attracted to the MMF program. I don't need stuff like GMAT, 2 years experience and I also have a good shot at getting an internship.

 

[twofish-quant]

When I looked at the courses it seemed like the program was actually providing a broad base.

The program seems pretty decent. Something that strikes me is that the program is aimed very specifically at staffing Canadian banks and financial institutions, which may not be a bad thing, since Canadian banks have done pretty well in the financial crash.

Something that you have to be aware of is that finance is huge, and I'm seeing a very small part of it. The program seems specifically tailored toward the Toronto financial industry, which is a very different pond than the one that I usually swim in.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

The program seems pretty decent. Something that strikes me is that the program is aimed very specifically at staffing Canadian banks and financial institutions, which may not be a bad thing, since Canadian banks have done pretty well in the financial crash.

Something that you have to be aware of is that finance is huge, and I'm seeing a very small part of it. The program seems specifically tailored toward the Toronto financial industry, which is a very different pond than the one that I usually swim in.

That's good to hear. Although, nothing is certain I just hope Canadian banks hold up in the years to come.

If not this whole thing would be a wasted cause.

I still have a minor problem of how to fund the degree.

Btw... How did you yourself become a quant ?

 

[Kevin_Axion]

The banks are all privatized and haven't really experienced much challenges during the 2008 economic crash so I think your relatively safe.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

The banks are all privatized and haven't really experienced much challenges during the 2008 economic crash so I think your relatively safe.

Well privatization still doesn't prevent a bank from going "boom", nothing does.

Basically, we just have to hope nothing bad happens.

 

[twofish-quant]

Well privatization still doesn't prevent a bank from going "boom", nothing does.

Personally speaking, I think that massive government regulation helps a lot.

Basically, we just have to hope nothing bad happens.

That's one of the major reasons I got into finance. I don't like to be in a situation where I just sit around "hoping." I really want to learn what makes the universe tick so that if something is happening, I can maybe help the situation or at least not make things worse.

Even when you can't change things, I think it's worthwhile to be somewhere interesting when things fall apart. Something that I remember in the fall of 2008 was thinking to myself, oh... So this is what a total financial collapse looks like.

It look pretty calm. Everyone is just looking at computer screens typing. Curiously when I read about what Wall Street looked like in 1929, it seems that people weren't running around with their heads chopped off. It was calm and orderly.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

That's one of the major reasons I got into finance. I don't like to be in a situation where I just sit around "hoping." I really want to learn what makes the universe tick so that if something is happening, I can maybe help the situation or at least not make things worse.

Even when you can't change things, I think it's worthwhile to be somewhere interesting when things fall apart. Something that I remember in the fall of 2008 was thinking to myself, oh... So this is what a total financial collapse looks like.

It look pretty calm. Everyone is just looking at computer screens typing. Curiously when I read about what Wall Street looked like in 1929, it seems that people weren't running around with their heads chopped off. It was calm and orderly.

Hahaha... I figured people who be working extra hours furiously doing irrelevant things in an attempt to keep their jobs.

How exactly did you become a "quant" after your PHd ?

Also what are your thoughts on me talking an extra year after graduation to retake some of the math courses I took in engineering?

I am not sure how much in-depth math knowledge is needed in the program but I certaintly don't want to put myself in a disadvantageous spot.

A gap year would also help me raise some funds.

I was thinking of retaking Probability, taking stats for the first time, taking a numerical methods courses and maybe taking analysis( I need more stuff on metrics and measure)and abstract algebra.

 

[twofish-quant]

Hahaha... I figured people who be working extra hours furiously doing irrelevant things in an attempt to keep their jobs.

People were busy, but nothing that was being done was irrelevant. One thing that happened for example was that once the Fed lowered interest rates to zero and below, a lot of algorithms that had never seen zero or negative interest rates stopped working, and so that was interesting. The really big decisions were being made in Washington D.C. and in various capitals around the world.

Keeping incredibly busy was one way of tuning out the stress. The really depressing part happened in early 2009, when it got less busy, and then the layoffs were happening.

How exactly did you become a "quant" after your PHd ?

Various computer programming jobs in oil and then logistics.

Also what are your thoughts on me talking an extra year after graduation to retake some of the math courses I took in engineering?

Just go through your class notes and review them. No need to take a class.

I was thinking of retaking Probability, taking stats for the first time, taking a numerical methods courses and maybe taking analysis( I need more stuff on metrics and measure)and abstract algebra.

Buy some books on Amazon and start reading.

One reason I like my job is that I have to always learn new stuff. Suppose you are working on a program, and then it suddenly becomes obvious that fixing it depends on knowing how to optimize Schur decomposition algorithms in common lisp. At that point, you need to fix the problem and the people that hired you don't really care whether or not you've ever programmed in common lisp or have ever heard of a Schur decomposition. So you are expected to go online and teach yourself about linear algebra algorithms and common lisp. It

 

[MaxManus]

The thing that attracts me the most to the MMF program is that it combines math and programming together and I can get a masters in 1 year.

Not sure about your program, but the mathematical finance program at my university has not a single programming course and you only use some statistic programming in the statistic course,and they often give you the R code. It is almost just math, topology stochastic calculus, partial differential equations, etc.

 

[MaxManus]

My question to twoquant, if you do take mathematical finance and it is mostly mathematics and you take a couple of PDE courses, could you then work in the industry together with (continuum) mechanics people? Its both mathematics/differential equations?

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

People were busy, but nothing that was being done was irrelevant. One thing that happened for example was that once the Fed lowered interest rates to zero and below, a lot of algorithms that had never seen zero or negative interest rates stopped working, and so that was interesting. The really big decisions were being made in Washington D.C. and in various capitals around the world.

Keeping incredibly busy was one way of tuning out the stress. The really depressing part happened in early 2009, when it got less busy, and then the layoffs were happening.



Various computer programming jobs in oil and then logistics.



Just go through your class notes and review them. No need to take a class.



Buy some books on Amazon and start reading.

One reason I like my job is that I have to always learn new stuff. Suppose you are working on a program, and then it suddenly becomes obvious that fixing it depends on knowing how to optimize Schur decomposition algorithms in common lisp. At that point, you need to fix the problem and the people that hired you don't really care whether or not you've ever programmed in common lisp or have ever heard of a Schur decomposition. So you are expected to go online and teach yourself about linear algebra algorithms and common lisp. It

Where you among the people who lost their jobs ? And how severe where the layoffs of "quants"(i.e 40%.. etc)?


Btw books are expensive to buy so I will use my university library. I guess my next two summers are going to be extremely busy since I will be working full time and "taking/studying" courses.

 

[twofish-quant]

My question to twoquant, if you do take mathematical finance and it is mostly mathematics and you take a couple of PDE courses, could you then work in the industry together with (continuum) mechanics people? Its both mathematics/differential equations?

There are dozens of different jobs in the industry. One reason that I'm not the best person to ask about jobs for masters of mathematical finance is that these tend to be somewhat different jobs than the one's physics Ph.D.'s go out for. If you've got a good program, then the people that run the program are talking to people in industry to see what is useful and what isn't.

The jobs I'm familiar with are mostly research ones. In that case, it's not what you know, but how quickly you can learn.

 

[twofish-quant]

Where you among the people who lost their jobs ? And how severe where the layoffs of "quants"(i.e 40%.. etc)?

Depends. There were massive layoffs in front office. No one in risk that I know got laid off. One thing that happened was that there were entire banks (e.g. Lehman) that went under in which most people got laid off.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

Depends. There were massive layoffs in front office. No one in risk that I know got laid off. One thing that happened was that there were entire banks (e.g. Lehman) that went under in which most people got laid off.

That's good news for me since I am interested in risk.
In your opinion which "quant" jobs are more "layoff-proof" or recession proof?

 

[George Jones]

Does anyone have an experience with the MMF program at UofT( University of Toronto)?

Any advice for me? Good or bad, I still want to hear it.

Someone I know, but with whom I have little contact (I'm in New Brunswick), finished this program. I have talked to him about it, but, unfortunately, I don't remember with certainty very much of what he said.

He graduated from the the U of T mathematics and physics program, and decided that the MMF program was a quicker and surer route to a good job than grad school.

He now has a related position in Toronto that I think he likes, and I think that he doesn't regret his decision.

Sorry that I can't remember more of the details.

 

[╔(σ_σ)╝]

Someone I know, but with whom I have little contact (I'm in New Brunswick), finished this program. I have talked to him about it, but, unfortunately, I don't remember with certainty very much of what he said.

He graduated from the the U of T mathematics and physics program, and decided that the MMF program was a quicker and surer route to a good job than grad school.

He now has a related position in Toronto that I think he likes, and I think that he doesn't regret his decision.

Sorry that I can't remember more of the details.

That's enough information. Thank you very very much.

At least now I have some sort of feedback about the program. Thank very much.