Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

AI Thread Summary
The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant is facing significant challenges following the earthquake, with reports indicating that reactor pressure has reached dangerous levels, potentially 2.1 times capacity. TEPCO has lost control of pressure at a second unit, raising concerns about safety and management accountability. The reactor is currently off but continues to produce decay heat, necessitating cooling to prevent a meltdown. There are conflicting reports about an explosion, with indications that it may have originated from a buildup of hydrogen around the containment vessel. The situation remains serious, and TEPCO plans to flood the containment vessel with seawater as a cooling measure.
  • #5,651
Rive said:
I dunno. The problem with this pixel-hunting is that anything can be something else too.

In this case, the big green thing you are highlighting is with little doubt
this grand machine, photographed in its apparently normal sleeping position, west of the equipment pool of unit 3:
gyldengrisgaard.dk/daiichigrab/unit3/f1-21.JPG

This machine, I've been told, is for tightening the head bolts of the reactor in a uniform manner. Talk about special tools. Some spanner, eh? :-)

PS. This machine appears to be the least damaged bit on the deck of unit 3. It doesn't even appear to have been moved much about.
 
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  • #5,652
jlduh said:
Well, i don't know what was Dmytry meaning in his post but from my standpoint, I've had the impression that the 20kms/30kms zone has been very quickly drawn on the map and that after that, the communication seem to have been very confusing between orders given (evacuate in the 20kms/stay inside for 20 kms/30 kms which is, let it recognize, adapted for a short time but not for more than a month!) and some data released which gradually showed that these orders where sowewhat inappropriated for some areas (like the North west Litate zone for example). The "evacuate voluntarily advice" (20k/30k) was quite surprising also. Then they moved to a new recent position adding some specific zones outside of the circles but it required a "fair amount" of time, as if they were "sticking" very long to their first circles, drawn very quickly (at a time US forces were talking about a 80 kms zone by the way).

I understand that evacuation is not easy, and that's also part of the dangers related to that kind of accident: it can add or remove a lot of effects on people depending if it is done in an efficient way or not. But as i said more than a month ago, infos and decisions have to be consistent otherwise people get lost, and a lot got lost effectively (remember these people going back because they didn't feel that there was a danger as announcements done were always very "soft" (no risk, no danger, don't be overly concerned, and so on). It's certainly good to avoid panic, but on the other side, if communication is so soft and inconsistent that some people think "that's a big deal about nothing, i go back there" -which happened- then that's also a problem in my opinion! Panic is not only "rushing all in the same direction", it can also be create a situation where people don't know what to do in their everyday life ("ok i stay inside but after one week, two weeks, 3 weeks what do i do"...) and go in various contradictory directions because what they perceive is contradictory...
Well, the rowmag said "The evacuation zones were decided based on similar plots,". Reality check: the evacuation zones were circles. It took over a month until evacuation orders became non circular. A month of REMAIN INDOORS orders for god's sake! Do you guys have a slightest idea what a remain indoors instruction does to people after a month? Especially to old and disabled. Note that it was 20..30 km remain indoors ('voluntarily evacuate'), and 20 km evacuate. Note that this is actually larger area under remain indoors order than was evacuated.
I guess you guys are going to think that they were circles such that radiation can't get out of the circle, but that's not how meteorology works period.

rowmag really is example of the reason why government feels free to keep secrecy... a citizen who, in absence of data, would come up with his own explanations along the lines of how correct the government actions were. That is very convenient. Simple lack of specific data becomes effective positive propaganda in such cases.

I'm really surprised there wasn't widespread panic. Everything was done to incite as much panic as they possibly could. Complete with mis-measurements then release of 'corrected' figures an order of magnitude smaller. Complete with 'remain indoors, there's radiation outside'. Pushing the fear of unknown button as hard as possible. Pushing the uncertainty button as hard as possible, too. Really, what they could have possibly done to cause more panic? Release data honestly, with the plume? That'd be a very reassuring thing, to see that this stuff is being calculated. For people outside plume it'd be directly reassuring, the people inside could have been evacuated instead of hanging in uncertainty and 'remaining indoors'.
Sigh. I'd hate to agree with pro nuclear stupid arguments, but this remain indoors order and 'voluntary evacuation' thing could of easily killed more people than radiation did.
 
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  • #5,653
MadderDoc said:
In this case, the big green thing you are highlighting is with little doubt
this grand machine, photographed in its apparently normal sleeping position, west of the equipment pool of unit 3:
gyldengrisgaard.dk/daiichigrab/unit3/f1-21.JPG

This machine, I've been told, is for tightening the head bolts of the reactor in a uniform manner. Talk about special tools. Some spanner, eh? :-)

PS. This machine appears to be the least damaged bit on the deck of unit 3. It doesn't even appear to have been moved much about.

Certainly this machine was noticed by someone on forums in the past and commented on. If memory serves me correctly I think they thought it was the fuel bridge, with a theory that it had gone way up in the air and landed on the other side of the building. Personally I did not buy into that theory, but it is also impossible for me to conclude with 100% certainty that this image shows the bolt tightening equipment rather than the fuel bridge. Both are green, and there is nothing in that video that tells me I am looking at a device which is approximately round in shape.

I think that piece of equipment may also be visible on one of the reactor 4 videos, possibly at an angle due to some floor collapse, I will go and have another look and see, it could easily be something else.

Personally I've been more interesting by the old army helicopter video that appears to show large quantities of steam or smoke coming out of what looks to be the removable concrete walls that sit between the dryer separator pit and the reactor cavity. But really what I have learned from looking at a variety of videos and pictures is not very much, and does not justify the time I've spent on it.
 
  • #5,654
|Fred said:
What is ? I would appreciate If you could refrain to make free comments like this, If you are suggesting that evacuation procedure were not done properly according to the data at hand, I'll welcome your analysis. But if it's just free bashing It's just value less I.M.O.

From what I've looked at I see a real potential concern as far as Iodine children's thyroid protection is concerned. As the accumulated dose exeded 100mSv in zone outside the evac as early as the 24/Mars

Hence my question , about order given to the population. For the rest a first approach to the document seems to indicate that evacuation was made rather appropriately..
But heck I can't check everything.

There is no way the evacuation was handled appropriately, and I am quite surprised that anybody thinks it was. Specifically, the government were negligent in how they handled the regions slightly outside the evacuation zone to the north west. I will have to try to go back and retrace the exact sequence of events to give a completely accurate picture, but I am sure that data was made available showing that parts of the north west really should be evacuated, and this data was available for quite some time before the Japanese government announced that they would eventually make people evacuate those areas. I will go and try to find more detail now.
 
  • #5,655
SteveElbows said:
Certainly this machine was noticed by someone on forums in the past and commented on.
...
Both are green, and there is nothing in that video that tells me I am looking at a device which is approximately round in shape.
- :blushing:
- check the attachment of this post - within the limits of our sources MadderDoc can be right about that 'spanner' :-)

But if this 'spanner' is in place then the much heavier FHM should be there somewhere too.
 

Attachments

  • #5,656
Is it right that the last day 27.4. Tepco spray Water at Unit 4 ?
I found no more Press release.
 
  • #5,657
Dmytry said:
Well, the rowmag said "The evacuation zones were decided based on similar plots,". Reality check: the evacuation zones were circles. It took over a month until evacuation orders became non circular. A month of REMAIN INDOORS orders for god's sake! Do you guys have a slightest idea what a remain indoors instruction does to people after a month? Especially to old and disabled. Note that it was 20..30 km remain indoors ('voluntarily evacuate'), and 20 km evacuate. Note that this is actually larger area under remain indoors order than was evacuated.
It's hard to imagine what these people are going through.
 
  • #5,658
Dmytry said:
A month of REMAIN INDOORS orders for god's sake! Do you guys have a slightest idea what a remain indoors instruction does to people after a month? Especially to old and disabled.
I haven't been in the area, but in other rural areas of Japan, some people still live in houses that aren't exactly tight. Lots of air moving in and out through bad windows and improper insulation. So, wind can easily contaminate an old house. And even if you're in a tight, modern house, keeping windows closed for a month and turning off AC doesn't really work.

It's really tough to "stay indoors" for a long period of time. They had informations on TV on what to do when you have to get out, e.g. wear a jacket, hat and tight shoes, take them off outside before getting into your house(they do that anyway with their shoes), rinse. Combined with the omnipresent medical face masks this might sound alright, therefore keeping people calm.
But without proper measuring equipment it's impossible to determine whether or not you carry particles on your body, which then just might enter your "safe zone".

I wonder if they have "difficult" data on Tokyo. The time following the explosion of #3 and #4 sometimes had south-bound wind.

Evacuating Tokyo is impossible, so they probably wouldn't tell anyone.
I'm really surprised there wasn't widespread panic.
Japanese "panic" on a different level, I believe. They're generally much more calm than most other people I know.
 
  • #5,659
maddog1964 said:
I am not a chemist, but have been comparing equipment locations from the #1 blueprint (assuming all buildings have a similar layout...)

Unfotunately, reactor #1 is quite different from the others. We have some sketchy blueprints of #3's concrete srtucture, without the machinery:

http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/EXPORT/projects/fukushima/povray/blueprint/good/

Reactors #2--#4 are said to have the same basic plan. What we can see through the holes on #3 and #4 seems to agree with the above blueprints. However there may be differences. The entrance on the ground floor, for example, looks different between #3 and #4.
 
  • #5,660
WhoWee said:
It's hard to imagine what these people are going through.
Precisely. Hard to imagine, easy to understate.

ascot317 said:
It's really tough to "stay indoors" for a long period of time. They had informations on TV on what to do when you have to get out, e.g. wear a jacket, hat and tight shoes, take them off outside before getting into your house(they do that anyway with their shoes), rinse. Combined with the omnipresent medical face masks this might sound alright, therefore keeping people calm.
I don't think it makes anyone calm to have them go through various steps to avoid a hazard they can't see and can't measure and hazards of which they don't know (but presumably quite hazardous enough if you are told to go through those steps).
Japanese "panic" on a different level, I believe. They're generally much more calm than most other people I know.
I suspect a silent 'panic' where people just remain indoors and avoid going out to the extent when the health effects from that are worse than from radiation. Which is anyhow the case outside plume, where the radiation is not a problem in the first place. Also, see this:

keep in mind that this area was also damaged by quake, and some of it, by tsunami. And the supplies are not being delivered because those 'calm' non panicking Japanese, trusting their government, are nonetheless declining to deliver food etc etc to those 'remain indoors' regions. I don't know if that can be described as 'panic', or if we need a Japanese word for it, like tsunami.
 
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  • #5,661
zapperzero said:
...
After a bit of press investigation about Daini's related press releases on the 21th
I'm incline to conclude that Reuter's paper is a source of miss representation of the actual information.


On the 21 april NISA press release is the following
http://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/...0422/foreign-press-briefing-20110422-meti.pdf

NISA SAID: (April 21st)
- The Prime Minister issued the following instruction in relation to the
accident at Fukushima Dai-ni NPS of TEPCO to the Governor of
Fukushima prefecture, and Mayors of Hirono-Town, Naraha-Town,
Tomioka-Town and Okuma-Town, in accordance with the provisions of the
Article 20, paragraph 3 of the Act on Special Measures Concerning
Nuclear Emergency Preparedness.
Instruction to change the evacuation area from within 10km
radius to within 8km radius from Fukushima Dai-ni NPS.

And On the 21 april Tepco's press released is the following http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11042108-e.html
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110421e11.pdf
Its an update , but really a no change confirming the cold shutdown since march


What else would the milestone be? Just the passing of time?
yet an other press epic failure ? bit like this one http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tg6gskQW-...Lo/Np23gFjKfQo/s1600/obama-bin-laden-dead.jpg
 
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  • #5,662
triumph61 said:
Is it right that the last day 27.4. Tepco spray Water at Unit 4 ?
I found no more Press release.

I also haven't been able to find announcement of sprayings to that pool since the 27th.
 
  • #5,663
elektrownik said:
#3 RPV is 205C now, why ?
also only 1,6m water in #1 SFP

elektrownik said:
Here: http://www.meti.go.jp/press/2011/05/20110503001/20110503001-3.pdf (last page)

MadderDoc said:
Yes, I can see that now, thank you. I think it is a measure of the temperature somewhere in the drywell. I can see too, that it has been on the increase for several days. If it shall not be dismissed as the result of a faulty sensor (which Tepco indicates that it might be), I am not sure how to interpret it. Corium in the drywell?

@MadderDoc you do not haver to "think it is a measure somewhere in the dry well", we just need to check the equivalent english version of this table to find out it is the temperature in the dry well at the RPV bellows seal. http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110502-2-3.pdf but these are aways a view days late

And yes this temperature has drastically increased and is is also marked with #3 meaning that measurement is under evaluation and may not be correct but this increase even if measurement is faulty should worry tepco.
 
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  • #5,664
SteveElbows said:
<..>it is also impossible for me to conclude with 100% certainty that this image shows the bolt tightening equipment rather than the fuel bridge. Both are green, and there is nothing in that video that tells me I am looking at a device which is approximately round in shape.

Rule number 1 of pixel-twitching: Always look at something from more than one angle.

I think that piece of equipment may also be visible on one of the reactor 4 videos, possibly at an angle due to some floor collapse, I will go and have another look and see, it could easily be something else <..>

In unit 3, the bolt screwing machine does appear to be tilted down towards the west, likely because the floor under it has collapsed, and it is now standing on a slope.
 
  • #5,665
MadderDoc said:
I also haven't been able to find announcement of sprayings to that pool since the 27th.
At 27.4 Tepco sprays. The Water steps 4250 to 6550mm.
Today Water still at 5550mm.
What is going on??
 
  • #5,666
Jorge Stolfi said:
Unfotunately, reactor #1 is quite different from the others. We have some sketchy blueprints of #3's concrete srtucture, without the machinery:

http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/EXPORT/projects/fukushima/povray/blueprint/good/

Reactors #2--#4 are said to have the same basic plan. What we can see through the holes on #3 and #4 seems to agree with the above blueprints. However there may be differences. The entrance on the ground floor, for example, looks different between #3 and #4.

Yes Jorge, I agree with what you are saying and that's why i clairify in the beginning that its #1, the process equipment still seems to be the same and in the same general location and (Its is just an assumption based on the lack of information) I should have made that clearer ... I have lousy monitor so its hard to look in the cavities... but have been working on chasing the equipment and pipe (as i do think some of the assumptions i see are inccorect or based as a fact (less so on this site) vs. an opioion.. I have found this site to be one of the more reliable..

My original concept that i was chasing is the contributing factors to the events... the Containment Vessel does not isolate all the Radioactve Components... ie the question of the "sludge removal" system.. the cleaning/water chemisty system is complex with many systems involved... There has been much past conversation about Rad limits and why they are at certain levels in odd places.. I have been trying to located the equipment that may contain (or have broken open) that could be the source of the Rad levels in certain places and not necssarly "fuel"...

while looking at the sludge system came across article refenceing the sludge tanks the Hartfod clean up site..(much bigger... not in reactor building) in it talks about "residule heat from the rad in the sludge being able to create Hydogen gas and Nitrous Oxide chemical reations.. (expoosive and flammible) " the sludge tank shown on the blueprint is a flat top.. not a pressure vessel

I am new to this form of communicating and apologize if I have approched it incorrectly...

I have enjoyed your post and was and still hoping that i could get some feed back on the chemistry part of the "secondary piping systems"

also on the Micky Mouse ears... can not see on the monitor very well but would you be so kind as to look and give me your comments..

When looking through the "scaffolding" it looks as though the blue/white can still be seen.. I have been in this busness a long time and can not think of a reason to put a tank on top of scaffold for safety reasons.. But with the clearer pictures you have posted it looks like that the wall is still there and (can you tell if the structure is an angel or tubing shape vs round) and the structure is a frame work that a tank (so not see any flanged ends to be heat exgr) has been mounted on the top and a system was to be installed on the lower half... maybe to feed something in one of the buildings or somewere else ... then the explosion and it just went away... this is just a wild *** guess.. don't see the remains around in after pictures.. the green box that was there looks like a typ weather/explos proof elc/instumention box...

thanks and will try to be more clear in the future... now do you know anything about the chemistry properties of the "sludge" and how hot would it be... or any guess?
 
  • #5,667
imandylite said:
Latest Packbot video of unit 1.

Video taken 29 April 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL1kcB1ClBk"

what are we observing here? looks like racks in a spent fuel pool but of which unit? and what is the significance of the brown rods, yellow finger is waving up and down along this brown object in video, could this be an oxidized fuel casing?
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikRUO0.JPG
 
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  • #5,668
Those recurring conspiracy theories are getting a bit old... If you want to argue please do so with evidence and not based on assumption.

Absence of time line argument
During this crisis we were provided by more that one hundred more than daily update time lined...

March 11 : 21:23 Mayor of Okuma Town and the Mayor of Futaba Town were issued regarding the event occurred at Fukushima Dai-ichi. to prepare evac of 2 zones 3 and 10 km

"Secret" Data http://www.nsc.go.jp/mext_speedi/20110311/20110311.html on the 11

March 12
05:44 Residents within 10km radius from Unit 1 of Fukushima Dai-ichi NPS shall evacuate by the Prime Minister Directive.
07:45 Directives from the Prime Minister to the Governor of Fukushima Prefecture, the Mayors of Hirono Town, Naraha Town , Tomioka Town and Okuma Town were issued regarding the event occurred at Fukushima Dai-ni NPS to prepare
Direction for the residents within 3km radius from Fukushima Dai-ni NPS to evacuate
Direction for the residents within 10km radius from Fukushima Dai-ni NPS to stay in-house
17:39 The Prime Minister directed evacuation of the residents within the 10 km radius from Fukushima Dai-ni NPS.
18:25 The Prime Minister directed evacuation of the residents within the 20km radius from Fukushima Dai-ichi NPS.

secret data http://www.nsc.go.jp/mext_speedi/20110312/20110312.html
at 13:00 radiation was carried for the first time to the land , wind changed direction all day.
Radiation data 5x10^-15 to 5x10-17 MICRO Sievert/h in a 10km radius

March 15th
11:00 The Prime Minister directed the in-house stay area.
In-house stay was additionally directed to the residents in the area from 20 km to 30 km radius from Fukushima Dai-ichi NPS considering in-reactor situation.


I only checked the two first days.. hardly enough to conclude anything that may have accrued after..Again I don't mind you finding evidence of wrong doing.

And Again please check http://www.nsc.go.jp/mext_speedi/0312-0424_in.pdf What the hell
Children thyroid potential intake dosed above 100mSv this area, with 3 or 4 towns! outside the evac... That's something to be pissed at
 
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  • #5,669
SteveElbows said:
There is no way the evacuation was handled appropriately, and I am quite surprised that anybody thinks it was. Specifically, the government were negligent in how they handled the regions slightly outside the evacuation zone to the north west. I will have to try to go back and retrace the exact sequence of events to give a completely accurate picture, but I am sure that data was made available showing that parts of the north west really should be evacuated, and this data was available for quite some time before the Japanese government announced that they would eventually make people evacuate those areas. I will go and try to find more detail now.

OK here is what I found from the past.

A NHK World story that indicates that they were aware that the north west direction was where problems were, at least as early as March 16th when this story was published.

Japan's science ministry has observed radiation levels of up to 0.33 millisieverts per hour in areas about 20 kilometers northwest of the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

Experts say exposure to such radiation for 3 hours would result in absorption of 1 millisievert, or the maximum considered safe for 1 year.

The ministry gauged radiation levels for 10 minutes from 8:40 PM local time on Tuesday at 3 places in Fukushima Prefecture, whose residents are being instructed to stay indoors. The measurements produced readings as low as 0.22 millisieverts per hour.

The USA's wider evacuation area did not give me any clues that the north west was an area to watch, but they did publish details on why their models told them that a 50 mile evacuation zone was appropriate. Document is dated March 15th:

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/news/2011/11-050_Attchmt.pdf

The US evacuation being different to the Japanese one, along with the online SPEEDI results being unavailable in a way that looked like censorship, would have given some people in Japan a clue as to the reality at that point, but the government persisted with its more limited evacuation policy for some time to come.

On the 17th March there were further stories about high radiation levels in certain areas:

NHK has a round-up of radiation levels in towns around the stricken Fukushima plant. While the report insists there is, as yet, no danger to human health the figures are somewhat disquieting:

As of 9am Thursday, at Fukushima City, 65 kilometres north-west of the Fukushima Daiichi plant, radiation level was 13.9 microsieverts per hour. This is more than 340 times the usual background level.

At Koriyama City west of the plant, the reading was 2.71 microseiverts, 45 times the normal level.

South of the plant, in Iwaki City, radiation levels were as high as 20 times the usual level at 1.25 microseiverts.

At this point there had also been at least one model of probable plume direction available on the internet for a few days, and such models told a different story to the oversimplified 'its all blowing out into the ocean' weather story that the media often told.

On the 18th NHK world had this story, further evidence of problems to the north west. Sorry I can't link to it because NHK recycle their links every month it seems:

Japan's science ministry says relatively high radiation levels have been detected on 2 consecutive days about 30 kilometers northwest of the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The radiation measured 170 microsieverts per hour on Thursday and 150 microsieverts on Friday.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano says the government will take appropriate measures if this level of contamination continues in the area for a long period. But he says this would be unlikely.

Radiation was measured for 2 hours from 10AM on Friday at 18 spots in areas 30 to 60 kilometers from the plant in Fukushima Prefecture.

The highest reading of 150 microsieverts per hour was detected at around 1:30 PM local time, about 30 kilometers northwest of the plant. The location is within the zone where residents have been instructed to stay indoors.

Readings of 170 microsieverts were recorded at the same location at 2 PM on the previous day, Thursday.

Experts say exposure to this amount of radiation for 6 to 7 hours would result in absorption of the maximum level considered safe for one year.

The ministry also observed radiation levels of 0.5 to 52 microsieverts per hour at other observation points within a 30 to 60 kilometer radius of the plant. It says these levels are all higher than normal, but not an immediate threat to health.

The government has evacuated residents living within a 20 kilometer radius of the plant, and instructed those in a 20 to 30 kilometer radius to stay indoors.

Anyway that's the very early stuff, I'll post again with details of what came next.
 
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  • #5,670
video http://vimeo.com/23186557"
 
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  • #5,671
Mechanical seals are used between the reactor pressure vessel and the containment structure (labeled "RPV to Drywell Bellows Seal" in
Figure 8-1) and between the drywell and the refueling cavity (labelled "Drywell
to Reactor Building Bellows" in Figure 8-1 ...

page 113

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/nuclear_power/nuclear-waste-disposal-crisis-excerpts.pdf

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/5109/rpvseals.th.png
 
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  • #5,672
AntonL said:
what are we observing here? looks like racks in a spent fuel pool but of which unit? and what is the significance of the brown rods, yellow finger is waving up and down along this brown object in video, could this be an oxidized fuel casing?
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikRUO0.JPG[/QUOTE]
The packbot is looking upward, to some catwalk or cable-tray. Maybe it's the place where the cables penetrates the containment - the view is familiar from one of the older packbot-videos.

Ps.: 3:05 - 3:15
 
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  • #5,673
|Fred said:
Those recurring conspiracy theories are getting a bit old... If you want to argue please do so with evidence and not based on assumption.

...

I only checked the two first days.. hardly enough to conclude anything that may have accrued after..Again I don't mind you finding evidence of wrong doing.

And Again please check http://www.nsc.go.jp/mext_speedi/0312-0424_in.pdf What the hell
Children thyroid potential intake dosed above 100mSv this area, with 3 or 4 towns! outside the evac... That's something to be pissed at

Perhaps we are arguing when we are in fact agreeing. My presumption is that many criticisms of the evacuation are to do with areas north west. People are generally not complaining that the initial evacuations were not done quickly enough, they are complaining that the areas of evacuation were not updated promptly once actual data became available to the authorities (& other like Greenpeace) that some of these areas to the north west would need to be evacuated. And when the government finally announced this stuff, they gave people a very long time to leave these areas, and got in further trouble over this issue of child safety & school playground topsoil removal, the resignation of the expert, etc.

Anyway, continuing my dredging up of old news on the evacuation and how it was handled, here we see two March 23rd articles where it is very clear that the government knows the reality of the contamination to the north west, but are not giving people full details or movin swiftly to change the evacuation zone:

Japan's science ministry says relatively high radiation levels have been detected on 2 consecutive days about 30 kilometers northwest of the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The radiation measured 170 microsieverts per hour on Thursday and 150 microsieverts on Friday.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano says the government will take appropriate measures if this level of contamination continues in the area for a long period. But he says this would be unlikely.

Radiation was measured for 2 hours from 10AM on Friday at 18 spots in areas 30 to 60 kilometers from the plant in Fukushima Prefecture.

The highest reading of 150 microsieverts per hour was detected at around 1:30 PM local time, about 30 kilometers northwest of the plant. The location is within the zone where residents have been instructed to stay indoors.

Readings of 170 microsieverts were recorded at the same location at 2 PM on the previous day, Thursday.

Experts say exposure to this amount of radiation for 6 to 7 hours would result in absorption of the maximum level considered safe for one year.

The ministry also observed radiation levels of 0.5 to 52 microsieverts per hour at other observation points within a 30 to 60 kilometer radius of the plant. It says these levels are all higher than normal, but not an immediate threat to health.

The government has evacuated residents living within a 20 kilometer radius of the plant, and instructed those in a 20 to 30 kilometer radius to stay indoors.

Extremely high radiation found in soil
Japanese authorities have detected a concentration of a radioactive substance 1,600 times higher than normal in soil at a village, 40 kilometers away from the troubled nuclear power plant in Fukushima Prefecture.

The disaster task force in Fukushima composed of the central and local governments surveyed radioactive substances in soil about 5 centimeters below the surface at 6 locations around the plant from last Friday through Tuesday.

The results announced on Wednesday show that 163,000 becquerels of radioactive cesium-137 per kilogram of soil has been detected in Iitate Village, about 40 kilometers northwest of the plant.

Gakushuin University Professor Yasuyuki Muramatsu, an expert on radiation in the environment, says that normal levels of radioactive cesium-137 in soil are around 100 becquerels at most. The professor says he was surprised at the extremely high reading, which is 1,630 times higher than normal levels.

He warns that since radioactive cesium remains in the environment for about 30 years it could affect agricultural products for a long time. He is calling on the government to collect detailed data and come up with ways to deal with the situation.

The map on page 4 of the following presentation dated March 22nd, gave me enough data that when combined with all the previous stories I posted, an evacuation of some parts beyond the evacuation zone, to the north-west of the plant, seemed like a no-brainer.

http://www.slideshare.net/energy/radiation-monitoring-data-from-fukushima-area-march-22-2011

But what actually happened next? Mostly a week of silence on this subject in the press, until March 30th when Greenpeace measured radiation levels in some areas and publicly stated that Iitate was a concern, and urged the Japanese government to at least evacuate pregnant women and children from some of these places. Also on about March 30th IAEA also said much the same thing:

http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/4213197648/iaea-confirms-very-high-levels-of-contamination-far

This got quite a bit more attention in the press. But still nothing much happened. Then around April 4th, the first coverup of SPEEDI data was talked about by NHK world:

It has been learned that the Japanese government withheld the release of computer projections indicating high levels of radioactivity in areas more than 30 kilometers from the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The estimates were made on March 16th following explosions at the plant by an institute commissioned by the government using a computer system called SPEEDI. The system made its projections on the assumption that radioactive substances had been released for 24 hours from midnight on March 14th, based on the available data.

But the government was reluctant to reveal the SPEEDI projections, and did not release them until March 23rd.
The released data showed that higher levels of radioactive substances would flow over areas to the northwest and southwest of the plant.

The estimates showed that the radiation would exceed 100 millisieverts in some areas more than 30 kilometers from the nuclear plant if people remained outdoors for 24 hours between March 12th and 24th.

That is 100 times higher than the 1 millisievert-per-year long-term reference level for humans as recommended by the International Commission on Radiological Protection.

The Nuclear Safety Commission says it did not release the projections because the location or the amount of radioactive leakage was not specified at the time.

Professor emeritus Shigenobu Nagataki of Nagasaki University, says the government should release more data about the dangers of possible radiation exposure and draw up evacuation plans and other measures together with residents.

Monday, April 04, 2011 12:38 +0900 (JST)

Thats the end of part 2 of my evacuation recap.
 
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  • #5,674
Here is the final part of my rough guide to the evacuation.

On April 6th, after weeks of bad sounding news and data about some locations, there was finally some fresh action taken, although it sounds more like a local government initiative than a national one, as detailed in another NHK world story:

Pregnant women and small children in IItate village in Fukushima Prefecture, about 40 kilometers from the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, will be temporarily evacuated if they apply to do so.

The decision by the prefecture and village on Wednesday came as concerns mount among residents
over high radiation levels detected in the village.

Iitate is located outside the evacuation zone for the troubled nuclear plant. But the village's radiation level recorded nearly 45 microsievert per hour at its peak on March 15th, and has been significantly higher than most other areas more than 30 kilometers away from the plant.

On Wednesday, the level is about 6 microsieverts per hour, but even this would exceed 1,000 microsieverts if people remained outdoors for 24 hours over about one week. 1,000 microsieverts-per-year of radiation is the long-term reference level for people as recommended by the International Commission on Radiological Protection.

The village says it will arrange evacuation to Fukushima City for about 2 months, and those eligible to apply will be pregnant women, children younger than 3 and their guardians.

The village will start evacuating them in a week's time.
Wednesday, April 06, 2011 13:31 +0900 (JST)

And then, finally, on April 11th the government acted:

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/84604.html

The government will expand evacuation districts near the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, its top spokesman said Monday.

With the crisis at the plant dragging on, some municipalities within a 20- to 30-kilometer radius of the power plant will now be designated as additional evacuation areas, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said at a news conference.

Previously, the government said that outside radiation levels of over 50 millisieverts require evacuation, and advises residents to remain indoors when levels exceed 10 millisieverts.

From now on, it will issue an evacuation order if there is a possibility of residents receiving a dose of 20 millisieverts during the course of a year.

In the event of an emergency, the International Commission on Radiological Protection is recommending also that the highest planned residual dose over one year be in the range of 20 to 100 millisieverts.

The municipalities which will be part of the new evacuation zone include Katsurao, Namie and Iitate, all located in Fukushima Prefecture.

Residents in these municipalities will be expected to move to different areas within one month, Edano said.

I have some sympathy with the authorities because they had a lot to deal with from earthquake & tsunami damage, but as my recent posts show I think its hard to see why this stuff dragged on into April, and seeing as the evacuation order was not immediate, into May as well. Have we heard any recent news about how the evacuation of these areas is going, as they don't have much more than a week left before a month has passed since the decision to evacuate these towns? The only news I've heard of evacuations really was the changing of law to prevent people going back within the original evacuation area, and a bit of fiddling with the rules to enable people to return briefly to retrieve valuables.
 
  • #5,675
Unit 1 is another balancing act even if they can flood to cover all the fuel, the heat being generated along with any gases allows a pressure build up so cooling the source of the heat minimizes the pressure being created causing ambient air. This means Unit 1 is has a leak but not as bad as 2&3 nonetheless problematic whereas do you cool the fuel remaining above water level via steam or allow fuel to meltdown to water level?

Either way, eventually, ending up with ambient air but taking a longer amount of time for a cool down for Unit 1 with a large amount of accumulating contaminated water.

Even if they plug the leak, they need a closed loop for proper cooling.
 
  • #5,676
Rive said:
<..>
But if this 'spanner' is in place then the much heavier FHM should be there somewhere too.

If that is to be inside the confines of the north end of the building, the machine has likely been ballistic and would be expected to be considerably damaged. The building too, would be considerably damaged at the area of impact. The area would be expected to contain green wreckage of a particular tint. Pointed to in the attachment would seem to be the most, if not the only likely fit.
 

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  • #5,677
Data...

Collection, validation and then testing against hypotheses. The result of those tests allow us to draw valid conclusions from the data and make sound decisions based on it.

If the data we gather fails the validation, we change the way we gather it or we gather more. (For example, validation of data for drugs approval involves billions of dollars, many thousands of data points and provides sufficient confidence in it that all parties can agree on the conclusions made. I we diverge on those conclusions over time (as happens), then we did not gather sufficient valid data in the first place).

The problem we all have - from TEPCO, to the general public, is that we do not have enough data to draw valid conclusions.

Therefore, people in Japan can discriminate against refugees from Fukushima. TEPCO can refuse to release data that they have no confidence in (I salute them for that). And pixel peepers on this forum can make up all sorts of stories about green boxes outside Unit 4. Or 6 posters can postulate on a 40 deg increase in a temperature reading from a system that has been wrecked. (If I tried to validate an Autoclave with the thermocouples in Units 1-4 I would probably lose my job).

We are all desperate for answers - ultimately 'the truth' - but that data will not be available for many years.

In the meantime we simply don't have the data to draw conclusions from. Our only saviour are qualifications and experience. The experts are qualified and experienced in the processes and systems that are going on (NUCENG, ASTRONUC are immediate examples, there are others in the same league). Most of the rest of us are not.

This means that they are qualified to draw conclusions on smaller sets of data than the rest of us. And small sets of data are all that we have right now.

So, listen to the experts and add weight to their conclusions. They are more likely to be right than the others here that post their views with less care and authority. And understand that they may give an answer that means no conclusion can be drawn, because the data is simply not valid.

And spare a thought for the TEPCO Engineers that are trying to control (probably) the worst nuclear accident we have faced with perhaps 1% of the data they need to do the job right.

A last point (and thanks for listening). Probably the one of the best qualified people to draw conclusions (and that will be based on undoubtedly the most amount of data) of anybody I have read on this is here:
Cainnech said:
 
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  • #5,679

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  • #5,680
fluutekies said:

"1939 - Tokyo Electric Power Plan to build Fukushima"

Wow, that's one year after the discovery of fission and more than three years before CP-1.

Nevertheless, very very nice collection of pictures.
 
  • #5,681
Jorge Stolfi said:
Indeed, water level in the #1 reactor has been 1.6 meters below the top of the fuel for some 40 days now. It is even lower in reactors #2 and #3.
You're sure about reading those numbers as below the fuel? In the press releases it only says "Distance from the top of the fuel" but not which direction. Initially I've been a bit confused about the negative numbers. Then about two weeks ago I was able to correlate the readings with some other statements from tepco with the same data which made it clear (to me at least) that a negative reading meant above the fuel. Does anyone have a source to verify?
 
  • #5,682
turi said:
You're sure about reading those numbers as below the fuel? In the press releases it only says "Distance from the top of the fuel" but not which direction. Initially I've been a bit confused about the negative numbers. Then about two weeks ago I was able to correlate the readings with some other statements from tepco with the same data which made it clear (to me at least) that a negative reading meant above the fuel. Does anyone have a source to verify?

100% that "-" mean that it is below top of fuel sets.
 
  • #5,683
turi said:
You're sure about reading those numbers as below the fuel? In the press releases it only says "Distance from the top of the fuel" but not which direction. Initially I've been a bit confused about the negative numbers. Then about two weeks ago I was able to correlate the readings with some other statements from tepco with the same data which made it clear (to me at least) that a negative reading meant above the fuel. Does anyone have a source to verify?

From the timed data it's easy to see that these readings were positively numbered before the explosions : http://www.gyldengrisgaard.dk/fukmon/uni2_monitor.html

I don't think there is any fuel left above the waterline , it all melted and dropped .

That's how they they can estimate the percentages of core damage
 
  • #5,684
A lot of steam/smoke on tepco web cam, I didnt saw so much science many days...
 
  • #5,685
GJBRKS said:
That's how they they can estimate the percentages of core damage

We had that discussion about core damage maybe a week or so before.

Core damage is estimated by drywell and wetwell radiation, they're recalculating how much of the core's inventory is outside the zircalloy shielding based on these numbers.

See here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3271215&postcount=5187

The only information these estimates provides us is "there's x% of the core inventories inside the RPV". It doesn't say anything about meltdowns.
It's also possibly that nothing has molten, but the zircalloy ruptured and great parts of the fuel rod's fission products were simply washed out.
 
  • #5,686
clancy688 said:
We had that discussion about core damage maybe a week or so before.

Core damage is estimated by drywell and wetwell radiation, they're recalculating how much of the core's inventory is outside the zircalloy shielding based on these numbers.

See here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3271215&postcount=5187

The only information these estimates provides us is "there's x% of the core inventories inside the RPV". It doesn't say anything about meltdowns.
It's also possibly that nothing has molten, but the zircalloy ruptured and great parts of the fuel rod's fission products were simply washed out.

Oke , perhaps not molten , maybe broken

But it 100% cannot be above the waterline , so all former fuel % above the current waterline is damage %
 
  • #5,687
clancy688 said:
The only information these estimates provides us is "there's x% of the core inventories inside the RPV". It doesn't say anything about meltdowns.
It's also possibly that nothing has molten, but the zircalloy ruptured and great parts of the fuel rod's fission products were simply washed out.

We had the development of hydrogen gas. This is only possible if zirconium is delivered at a temperature of at least 800 degrees Celsius.

It is fair to speak of a molten core.

Let us not always start from point zero. the facts are proved scientifically.

Uranium pellets have a higher melting point. That's right. It says nothing about a possible criticality of the corium.

We have, therefore possibly increasing or constant temperatures in the reactor cores.

We have corium, whose whereabouts is not clear.

We have no values ​​of deuterium, americium or cobalt. All these data would be needed for a reliable analysis of the situation on the ground.

wrote with google-translator

Kind regards from germany
 
  • #5,688
Samy24 said:
As I have learned the "skimmer level" is not the water level in the SFP
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110418e5.pdf"

The temperature is rising since the last days, but is still lower than the highest readings in the past. So maybe it does not explode by now ;)

Yes skimmer surge tank and SFP communicate through their upper part, and FPC skimmer level does not give SFP level. However, it gives an indication on the moments the SFP is full, and whether a water injection or spray fills in the pool or not.

If FPC skimmer level increases, it means water has overflowed from the SFP, and thus that the SFP was full during the previous water injection / spray.

Amount of water added between two "SFP full" signals gives an estimate of the amount of its losses between those two signals.

Second indication is given when dealing with temperature. The only reported SFP temperature is that of SFP2. Temperature increases with skimmer level. Temperature of the SFP seems to be measured in the FPC skimmer. When SFP overflows, water coming from it flows in FPC skimmer, mixing with water already there. One could deduce temperature in SFP, when we have temperature and level before and after overflow.

Now what does it tell us for the various SFP ?

SFP1: skimmer level has never raised, even when Tepco performed the (only reported) refill on Mar 31st (90 tons). We have no proof by this measurement that SFP1 has enough water. We can wonder how Tepco follows SFP1 (absence of steam above SFP1 ?).

SFP2: we have 9 signals showing that SFP was full (between brackets the tons of water required to get "full" signal again, followed by the caculated loss rate [tons per day])
- 01/04/2011 17:05
- 04/04/2011 13:37 (70 => 24.5)
- 10/04/2011 12:38 (96 => 16.1)
- 13/04/2011 14:55 (60 => 19.3)
- 16/04/2011 11:54 (45 => 15.6)
- 19/04/2011 17:28 (47 => 14.5)
- 22/04/2011 17:40 (50 => 16.6)
- 25/04/2011 11:18 (38 => 13.9)
- 28/04/2011 11:28 (43 => 14.3)

SFP2 seems basically quite full all the time. Its max loss in this period is 96 tons, which is roughly only 6% of it. SFP2 level seems under control. What about temperature ? For example, for the last "full" event (28/04/2011 11:28), level before overflow was 5400 (millimiters in skimmer) and temp was 50°C. After it, was 6000 and 71. What was the temperature of the added Water, assuming FPC skimmer is of cylinder form ? Well FPC skimmer 2 has leaks, which are about 400 millimeters per day.

So at the exact end of injection, level could have been 6400. Well my own calculation shows water temperature above boiling point ... Any clue to calculate this ? Any info on FPC skimmer form and dimensions ?

SFP3: we have no report of FPC skimmer level. The only information is that they have added at least 1000 tons of water to it since beg. of earthquake. For SFP3 also we can wonder how they monitor the level of it (and temperature).

SFP4: we have only 4 signals (same reporting than SFP2):
- 13/04/2011 06:57 (prior to this: about 1550 tons injected / sprayed)
- 15/04/2011 18:29 (140 => 56.4)
- 17/04/2011 21:22 (140 => 66)
- 27/04/2011 14:44 (1210 => 124)

SFP4 has important losses. Simply by boiling, SFP4 would lose max 71 tons per day. The last figure tells us that SFP4 leaks, and is capable to leak importantly (53 tons per day in some circonstances). One important fact is that losses became accelerating since Apr. 17th. The most problematic is that I do not see any refill since the 27/04/2011 14:44; extrapolating this could mean SFP4 has left about 570 tons since then, roughly 1/3 of its height (assuming gate is still there ...). When was the video showing SPF4 underwater was taken ?
 
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  • #5,689
clancy688 said:
We had that discussion about core damage maybe a week or so before.

Core damage is estimated by drywell and wetwell radiation, they're recalculating how much of the core's inventory is outside the zircalloy shielding based on these numbers.

See here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3271215&postcount=5187

The only information these estimates provides us is "there's x% of the core inventories inside the RPV". It doesn't say anything about meltdowns.
It's also possibly that nothing has molten, but the zircalloy ruptured and great parts of the fuel rod's fission products were simply washed out.

The reason gold can be panned is because it is heavier than water and all the other material that is is suspended in. I can't see U235 or U238 washing too far away. And why is it some users can get away with putting up nonsense and I get threatened within an inch of my life? Kind regards from Minnesota.
 
  • #5,690
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  • #5,691
jpquantin said:
When was the video showing SPF4 underwater was taken ?

April 28th according to TEPCO.

Thanks very much for the quality thoughts on the fuel pools. Earlier on I had been taking the published readings as direct indications of pool height, and it was only when I looked at the trends over time that the real story of the skimmer surge tanks & their relationship to the pool started to dawn on me. So your post was very helpful and saved me lots of work.

I will probably still try to keep somewhat of an open mind about this data and what it means, just in case there is some factor we are missing, or for example if they have already tried to convert the raw skimmer water temperature into a pool temperature before publishing the data. I doubt this but its just one example of things I cannot be sure about.

Certainly I believe they have some other data available to them that does not get published very often, but I've no way to know how often they get this data themselves and choose not to publish. For example I believe they have mentioned the unit 4 pool temperature being at 91 degrees C at some point, perhaps just before they went on the massive spraying binge that finally ended on the 27th. I assume they used a sensor hanging from the pumping crane, but detail or regular updates on these temperatures are not often to be found. Perhaps they really arent measuring it more often than we get to hear about, but if I were them I would want as much data as possible.
 
  • #5,692
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  • #5,693
elektrownik said:
There is something wrong, I never saw so much steam/smoke on tepco web cam science tsunami, It looks very bad...
http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/f1-np/camera/index-j.html

i happen to live near a 'cloud factory' (that's how my children call it, we would say cooling tower ;-))
the amount of steam seen varies a lot with weather conditions (btw even the colour does, sometimes it looks like smoke from some angles, when it's certainly only steam).

i would not worry to much.

EDIT:
Borek said:
Have you checked temperature at the place?

almost the same as here, i am tempted to take a walk to compare with my cloud factory ;-)

http://www.weather.com/weather/today/Fukushima+Japan+JAXX0010 (i know, fukushima city is way from the plant. should not make a big difference though)
 
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  • #5,694
jpquantin said:
SFP4: we have only 4 signals (same reporting than SFP2):
- 13/04/2011 06:57 (prior to this: about 1550 tons injected / sprayed)
- 15/04/2011 18:29 (140 => 56.4)
- 17/04/2011 21:22 (140 => 66)
- 27/04/2011 14:44 (1210 => 124)

SFP4 has important losses. Simply by boiling, SFP4 would lose max 71 tons per day. The last figure tells us that SFP4 leaks, and is capable to leak importantly (53 tons per day in some circonstances). One important fact is that losses became accelerating since Apr. 17th. The most problematic is that I do not see any refill since the 27/04/2011 14:44; extrapolating this could mean SFP4 has left about 570 tons since then, roughly 1/3 of its height (assuming gate is still there ...). When was the video showing SPF4 underwater was taken ?

There are Water Level Data.
The Level rises at27. (last time spraying)4250mm suddely to 28. 6550mm. Today the Level is 5550mm.
At 27. Tepco said the Pool is leaking. At 28. Tepco said the Pool is NOT leaking. Whats happend? Did they find the leaked? Perhaps they also restore the cooling?
 
  • #5,695
Rive said:
<..>I see no evidence that this heat-damage what we are talking about is in connection with the fire/blast.<..>

I am sure you have noticed that a part of the metal roof structure is missing on the roof in the south end. That's because in the course of the blast it ended up in the yard between units 3 and 4. Fortunately its attachment to the south edge of the roof has been that much retained that one can see that one end has been torn apart, while the other end appears to have been affected by a similar heat-damage what we are talking about effect. Are we to assume three separate fire/blast events, two on the roof and one in the yard?

Detail from one end of the roof structure landed in the 3/4 yard:
20110320_down_4-3a_detail.jpg
 
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  • #5,696
ascot317 said:
"1939 - Tokyo Electric Power Plan to build Fukushima"

Wow, that's one year after the discovery of fission and more than three years before CP-1.

Nevertheless, very very nice collection of pictures.

That was my reaction as well. houseoffoust has managed to collect a few items of interest but the presentation and analysis is frequently amateurish.
 
  • #5,697
jpquantin said:
Simply by boiling, SFP4 would lose max 71 tons per day.

Sorry if this has been discussed earlier.

France's IRSN has calculated that SFP 4 would lose max 115 tons per day.

Unit 4 pond contains a total 1331 used assemblies (783 plus full fuel load of 548), giving it a heat load of about 3 MW thermal, according to France's IRSN, which in that case could lead to 115 cubic metres of water boiling off per day, or about one tenth of its volume.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/fukushima_accident_inf129.html

MIT has calculated that even after 1 year the decay heat for units 2 & 3 after scram would be 5 MW per unit. Units 2 & 3 contain the same amount of reactor fuel assemblies that SFP 4 has spent/partially fuel assemblies (4 months old).
http://mitnse.com/2011/03/16/what-is-decay-heat/

(MIT is stating that their calculation is conservative, though.)

How was this 71 tons calculated? And can we be absolutely sure about it?
 
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  • #5,698
To Steveelbows: thanks for the quite exhaustive summary of the evacuation decision versus released contamination data sequences, most of the articles you list have been posted or discussed here in early pages of this thread (i remember reading most of them...), but this is important at some point to assemble individual images to build the "film" of the events. I remember very well the fact that in many statements, there was this dichotomy: alarming results in some areas (North west mainly) BUT no worry, no immediate health risk and so on (i wrote one post on this special dialectic). Your demonstration is pretty self explanatory of what some other members were trying to enlighthen...

To Fluuketies: very interesting photos, very very interesting really. They must have been posted by a Tepco employee, don't you think? Surprised to see so many pictures of cracks in the shroud core and lost objects in places where they shouldn't be (SFP, torus, well, etc.)

To GJBRKS; the document you posted from Lochenbaum

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documen...s-excerpts.pdf

is also VERY INFORMATIVE on SFP's failure modes from safety stand point! I'm currently reading it and you can learn a lot about these SFP's and their extended number of spent fuel rods -up to sometimes 7 cores (cited in this document)- whereas the initial design (and safety considerations) was only for 1/3 of a core...

This doc (published in 1996!) clearly illustrates the increases of risks due to the lack of spent fuel treatment options; so they accumulate in greater numbers over longer time in SFP, which is, based on this document, a much higher risk in terms of radioactive consequences than the ones associated with core damage (no containment, bigger amount of fuel, etc.).

Concerning the "bellows seal" whose temperature is rising at N°3 reactor (205°C currently), so this seal in fact is situated (if i understand properly) at the top end of the reactor: it seals the reactor vessel with the drywell, which is necessary during refuelling operations. During refuelling, the containment cap and the reactor cap are removed and water is poured in the well above the opened reactor. This seal is used to create the waterproof volume filled with water (the well). If this seal is leaking, then water during refuelling would leak directly into the containment vessel.
 
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  • #5,699
i too wonder about those explosions, especially unit 3, and await the condition of the reactor vessel & containment.

I doubt the fuel pool had anything beyond a zirc-water fire.
That is exothermic as you all well know, in fact reacting a pound of zirconium with water releases about 1/4 as many BTU's as burning a pound of coal with air. And of course a fair bit of hydrogen.
So a fast zirc-water fire would be a vigorous event that'd exhale a cloud of H2 ready to burn as soon as it got mixed with enough air.. that's sure plausible.

i am curious about the orange flash at beginning of #3 video, and if you find the right youtube there was one in first fraction of a second of unit 1 as well. Both orange flashes went horizontal.

As pointed out in someone's earlier post , i too thought hydrogen burned invisible and in unit 1 video you can sort of see a distortion in the air moving out and up in first few instants of blast.

<Speculation alert> might that be the hydrogen cloud igniting?

I'd post a link to a good video image , but last time i did that it disappeared from Youtube a few hours later.

Does anybody know of a frame by frame?

And is there anything to be gleaned from the burst of orange flame?
Orange is the color of burning salt but they weren't spraying seawater into the pools yet, as best i could find.

if this is just board clutter - advise and i'll desist. i troll for fish not attention.

old jim
 
  • #5,700
[q]This doc (published in 1996!) clearly illustrates the increases of risks due to the lack of spent fuel treatment options; ...[/q]

now you're on the same soapbox i preach from.

We as a nation are not doing right by spent fuel. The promise was for a robust reprocessing industry to deal with it and that didn't happen.
John McPhee's book "The Curve of Binding Energy" is a fascinating glimpse into the whys.

if we aren't willing to do something well we shouldn't do it at all.

old jim
 

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