Group Velocity: Estimating for Differing Wavenumbers

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of group velocity in wave mechanics, particularly in relation to waves with differing wavenumbers. Participants explore the conditions under which group velocity is defined, its dependence on the linearity of the relationship between angular frequency and wavenumber, and the implications of dispersion on group velocity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether group velocity can be defined for waves with significantly different wavenumbers, suggesting that it is typically applicable only for closely spaced wavenumbers.
  • Others argue that group velocity has meaning primarily when the angular frequency is a linear function of wavenumber, indicating that if this condition is not met, the wave packet may change shape and "fall apart" over time.
  • One participant proposes that even if the shape of the wave packet changes, a group velocity can still be defined, although its value may depend on the evaluation point of the derivative of angular frequency with respect to wavenumber.
  • Another viewpoint suggests that group velocity can be evaluated at a central wavenumber, particularly when the wavenumbers are clustered around a dominant value, but acknowledges that dispersion can affect the envelope of the wave packet.
  • There is mention of higher-order derivatives in the context of material dispersion, indicating that group velocity may vary with frequency in dispersive media.
  • A later reply emphasizes that if the spread in wavenumbers is too large, the concept of group velocity may become less useful, as the packet would spread significantly, complicating the specification of a single group velocity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of group velocity for waves with varying wavenumbers, with no consensus reached on the conditions under which it is meaningful. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of dispersion and the evaluation of group velocity in different contexts.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the definition of group velocity may depend on the linearity of the relationship between angular frequency and wavenumber, and that higher-order derivatives may play a role in dispersive media. There is also uncertainty about the appropriate wavenumber to use for evaluating group velocity when multiple values are present.

hanson
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I am wondering if group velocity can defined only for waves with very close wavenumber?
I see a number of simulations which shows the superposition of two waves with slighlty different wavenumber and angular frequency, and a train of wave pulses is produced. The group velocity is then (w2-w1)/(k2-k1).

But what if it is two waves of very different wavenumber?

And also, for waves that is composed of a range of values of k, where shall I evluate the group velocity i.e. the derivative dw/dt at?
 
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I think the concept of "group velocity" has meaning only when [itex]\omega[/itex] is a linear function of [itex]k[/itex], or nearly so. Then the derivative [itex]d\omega / dk[/itex] is a constant, or nearly so, and it doesn't make any difference what value of [itex]k[/itex] you evaluate the derivative at.

If [itex]d\omega / dk[/itex] isn't constant, the packet changes shape as time passes, and eventually "falls apart".
 
jtbell said:
I think the concept of "group velocity" has meaning only when [itex]\omega[/itex] is a linear function of [itex]k[/itex], or nearly so. Then the derivative [itex]d\omega / dk[/itex] is a constant, or nearly so, and it doesn't make any difference what value of [itex]k[/itex] you evaluate the derivative at.

If [itex]d\omega / dk[/itex] isn't constant, the packet changes shape as time passes, and eventually "falls apart".

If dw/dk is not constant, so what is the group velocity at every instant time? Though the packet changes shape as time passes, it shall still have a group velocity, isn't it? Just that the shape of the envelop changes but not the group velocity...?

And I actually see some books having Cg = 1-k^-2 etc...so...what does it mean?
 
I am thinking about the following:
That group velocity is for a group of waves that have a range of wavenumbers that is closed together (or dominated by such a group of wavenumbers) so that
k0 - delta < k <k0 +delta, where the dominating range of wavenumbers is around k0.

So, the group of waves can be viewed as a single harmonic wave of wavenumber k0 but with a varying envelope A(x,t). Just like the case of "beats".

So, the group velocity is dw/dk evaluated at k=k0.

So no matter the wave is dispersive or non-dispersive, the group velocity is still k=k0. But for dispersive waves, the envelop function will spread out or flatten as time passes.

Do you think I am thinking correctly? Is the concepts of group velocity has meaning only when the wavenumbers are dominated by a small group of wavenumbers / the wavenumbers are close enough together?
 
We can still define a group velocity, one just has to be mindful that group velocity will vary with frequency in a medium, due to material dispersion. Dispersive behaviour is contained within higher order derivative terms, d^2w/dk^2 and so forth.

Claude.
 
Claude Bile said:
We can still define a group velocity, one just has to be mindful that group velocity will vary with frequency in a medium, due to material dispersion. Dispersive behaviour is contained within higher order derivative terms, d^2w/dk^2 and so forth.

Claude.

Suppose the group velocity cg = 1-k^-2. And there is a group of waves with different values of k, so what value of k shall I use to find the group velocity?
 
Pick a reasonable central value. If the spread in k is so large that vg would be very different for different choices, then group velocity is not a useful concept.
The packet would spread so much that a packet velocity would be hard to specify.
 

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