Medical Cure for muscle tics - how does it work?

[lisab]

"Cure" for muscle tics - how does it work?

Many years ago, someone told me of a cure for muscle cramps that I assumed was an old wive's tale: you press or pinch your upper lip, between your mouth and nose, and maybe use a gentle rubbing.

I rarely get muscle cramps but I do occasionally get muscle tics (twitches), so I tried this to see if it would help.

Well lo and behold, this really works for me. Sometimes it takes 30 seconds or so of pressing, and sometimes it only works when the pressure is applied.

This is the same spot that, when pressed, stops sneezes in their tracks. Is that the same mechanism? What exactly is the mechanism?

 

[nismaratwork]

Many years ago, someone told me of a cure for muscle cramps that I assumed was an old wive's tale: you press or pinch your upper lip, between your mouth and nose, and maybe use a gentle rubbing.

I rarely get muscle cramps but I do occasionally get muscle tics (twitches), so I tried this to see if it would help.

Well lo and behold, this really works for me. Sometimes it takes 30 seconds or so of pressing, and sometimes it only works when the pressure is applied.

This is the same spot that, when pressed, stops sneezes in their tracks. Is that the same mechanism? What exactly is the mechanism?

There is no research that I can find which confirms this, but it seems to be a very widespread belief. I can think of four major reasons why it could work (sometimes), but I remain unconvinced that it does.

First, most muscle cramping is transient, so any activity that takes your time makes it more likely that the cramping will stop. If you are pinching your lip at the time, you may conclude that is the cure.

Second, the cramping can be caused by an imbalance of electrolytes (usually Na and K) and dehydration, and this also tends to be intermittent. This is essentially #1, but instead of time, maybe you have something to eat or drink and the lip-pinching is inconsequential.

Third, the cramping began normally, but is now self-reinforcing due to discomfort and your concentration on something else, and something painful such as the philtrum (where you punch on the lip) and this allows the cramping to ease. Certainly this could help with sneezing, just as some people find they can focus and ease hiccups.

Finally, it is possible that pinching what is known to be a VERY sensitive portion of your anatomy, the philtrum, releases endorphins, adrenaline and more as a response to the acute pain in another region of the body, which could have a relaxing effect. You can use a thread across the top of the philtrum to hold someone on the ground; that is how sensitive that region is.

There is no direct mechanism I can think of such as fainting or arrhythmia from the activity or trauma of/to the Vagus nerve (vasovagal syncope).

 

[lisab]

There is no research that I can find which confirms this, but it seems to be a very widespread belief. I can think of four major reasons why it could work (sometimes), but I remain unconvinced that it does.

First, most muscle cramping is transient, so any activity that takes your time makes it more likely that the cramping will stop. If you are pinching your lip at the time, you may conclude that is the cure.

Second, the cramping can be caused by an imbalance of electrolytes (usually Na and K) and dehydration, and this also tends to be intermittent. This is essentially #1, but instead of time, maybe you have something to eat or drink and the lip-pinching is inconsequential.

Third, the cramping began normally, but is now self-reinforcing due to discomfort and your concentration on something else, and something painful such as the philtrum (where you punch on the lip) and this allows the cramping to ease. Certainly this could help with sneezing, just as some people find they can focus and ease hiccups.

Finally, it is possible that pinching what is known to be a VERY sensitive portion of your anatomy, the philtrum, releases endorphins, adrenaline and more as a response to the acute pain in another region of the body, which could have a relaxing effect. You can use a thread across the top of the philtrum to hold someone on the ground; that is how sensitive that region is.

There is no direct mechanism I can think of such as fainting or arrhythmia from the activity or trauma of/to the Vagus nerve (vasovagal syncope).

Thanks, nismaratwork, those are good points. The 'coincidence' angle is quite possible, and perhaps after the pinch works a few times it gets reinforced, causing an expectation that it will work.

Several years ago I tried a little test, to see if it's an expectation thing. Instead of pinching my lip, I concentrated and imagined I was pinching my lip. I've done this many times - it's never worked, haha. Perhaps that only further adds to my expectation that the pinch will work!

But are you sure there's no evidence about pinching the philtrum to stop a sneeze? I googled it but only found wiki-answers type references and "adjust your chakra" type sites .

 

[nismaratwork]

Thanks, nismaratwork, those are good points. The 'coincidence' angle is quite possible, and perhaps after the pinch works a few times it gets reinforced, causing an expectation that it will work.

Several years ago I tried a little test, to see if it's an expectation thing. Instead of pinching my lip, I concentrated and imagined I was pinching my lip. I've done this many times - it's never worked, haha. Perhaps that only further adds to my expectation that the pinch will work!

But are you sure there's no evidence about pinching the philtrum to stop a sneeze? I googled it but only found wiki-answers type references and "adjust your chakra" type sites .

Well, I couldn't find any in JAMA or The Lancet, and then I found the same wiki entries you've mentioned. Granted that a lack of evidence doesn't make it wrong, but it seems to be either untested, or invalid. Then again, it could be confirmed in some other journal and I just didn't find it.

 

[rhody]

Many years ago, someone told me of a cure for muscle cramps that I assumed was an old wive's tale: you press or pinch your upper lip, between your mouth and nose, and maybe use a gentle rubbing.

This is the same spot that, when pressed, stops sneezes in their tracks. Is that the same mechanism? What exactly is the mechanism?

lisab,

Funny I read this post a few days ago, put it in the back of my mind, partially because at times I find myself sneezing 6 or more times fairly close together. Tonight at a restaurant I started, after the second sneeze I pushed and rubbed against my upper lip, and it stopped. I held it for about 15 seconds, let go, and sneezed one more time. Then I held it for about a minute and no more sneezing, very cool, but people tend to look at you funny, small price to pay though. So, from experiment I would say for me at least that it appears to work. Will have to repeat with multiples occurrences just to be sure.

Thanks for the tip...

Rhody...

 

[lisab]

lisab,

Funny I read this post a few days ago, put it in the back of my mind, partially because at times I find myself sneezing 6 or more times fairly close together. Tonight at a restaurant I started, after the second sneeze I pushed and rubbed against my upper lip, and it stopped. I held it for about 15 seconds, let go, and sneezed one more time. Then I held it for about a minute and no more sneezing, very cool, but people tend to look at you funny, small price to pay though. So, from experiment I would say for me at least that it appears to work. Will have to repeat with multiples occurrences just to be sure.

Thanks for the tip...

Rhody...

Glad to hear you had the same experiences with this that I've had - be sure to report back when you test its repeatability.

 

[rhody]

Glad to hear you had the same experiences with this that I've had - be sure to report back when you test its repeatability.

lisab,

Well it happened again. After my second sneeze, I held my upper lip, squeezed fairly gently and shook it slightly (sort of like the dentist does when he is about to inject your gum with novacane to dull or confuse the brain in sensing the needle pain). I did this for about 2 minutes, and blamo, no more sneezing ! So it works. Now it will be interesting to see if it continues to work, or as you use this everytime it happens, if the effect is somewhat diminished, sort of like the effects of repeated use of antibiotics, the effect eventually does not suppress what is was designed to do.

Rhody...

 

[nismaratwork]

I find this works for sneezing as well, but I can think of several reasons:

1.) Pressure in that region may draw the nostrils downwards and create more space between inflamed tissues.

2.) There is a "distraction" effect, after all sneezing usually continues beyond the point that the detritus is removed from the nostrils. I would hazard a guess that this is less effective for a cold or other URI.

3.) This is a sensitive area, so maybe the aforementioned reaction to mild discomfort in a sensitive region causes a reaction which is desirable for sneezing. I'm not sure that this is more effective than meditative concentration however. I would love to see this studied.

Ah, let me add a thanks to Lisab for the tip, however it works for sneezing it DOES seem to work. It's a nifty trick, thanks.

 

[Dadface]

A sneeze is a reflex and if you need to sneeze then from a health point of view it is more desirable to let it gf course there are situations where it is better to suppress a sneeze.

 

[rhody]

A sneeze is a reflex and if you need to sneeze then from a health point of view it is more desirable to let it gf course there are situations where it is better to suppress a sneeze.

Dadface,

I agree once or twice is fine, but when you sneeze almost a dozen times I don't think so. I had a roomate long ago in college who if he were first to the bathroom would sneeze at least that many times in a row, every day. Ewww. Having this little trick in your backpocket would have saved tons of lysol and window cleaner.

nismaratwork,

I agree, I think something happens that supresses the histamine release. When I don't squeeze the lip I can still feel the tickle/smell it (histamine). Affecting the sensory maps in the brain associated with the upper lip probably takes sensory input away from the areas that make you sneeze, in essense dulling the sensation, and preventing further sneezing.

Rhody...

P.S. To be specific, I grabbed my upper lip with thumb (inside lip) forefinger (outside lip) and squeezed and vibrated the lip gently for about 2 minutes. It looks really stupid in public, but I would do it anyway, as opposed to sneezing a dozen or more times, grossing everyone out in the immediate vicinity

BTW, what is the most number of times you have sneezed at one time ? I would say about 12 for myself. After that many times my ribs start to hurt, so I would have used this technique in a heartbeat had I known about it back then.

 

[nismaratwork]

Dadface,

I agree once or twice is fine, but when you sneeze almost a dozen times I don't think so. I had a roomate long ago in college who if he were first to the bathroom would sneeze at least that many times in a row, every day. Ewww. Having this little trick in your backpocket would have saved tons of lysol and window cleaner.

nismaratwork,

I agree, I think something happens that supresses the histamine release. When I don't squeeze the lip I can still feel the tickle/smell it (histamine). Affecting the sensory maps in the brain associated with the upper lip probably takes sensory input away from the areas that make you sneeze, in essense dulling the sensation, and preventing further sneezing.

Rhody...

P.S. To be specific, I grabbed my upper lip with thumb (inside lip) forefinger (outside lip) and squeezed and vibrated the lip gently for about 2 minutes. It looks really stupid in public, but I would do it anyway, as opposed to sneezing a dozen or more times, grossing everyone out in the immediate vicinity

BTW, what is the most number of times you have sneezed at one time ? I would save about 12 for myself. After that many times my ribs start to hurt, so I would have used this technique in a heartbeat had I known about it back then.

During an allergy attack as a kid, A dozen sounds about right. The intercostal muscles can strain from this.

Dadface: Rhody is correct, and he mentions histamines wisely. It's good to let the tears in your eyes flush an irritant, but the feeling tends to last far longer than the irritant is present. In the case of sneezing, the inflammatory cycle can go a bit haywire, and long after irritants have been ejected, you are left sneezing with no benefit and only the possibility of straining a muscle.

I would add rhody, that in the short time these past few days, I've found that laying the index finger across the top of the philtrum beneath the nares and applying pressure against the gums and teeth works as well and your method. Let's conduct a little informal test for the following parameters:

Does a certain level of discomfort need to be achieved to end the sneezing?
Can you do this without thinking about it, and achieve the same benefit?
Do we feel some pressure change in the base of the sinus, much as you might when applying pressure upwards beneath the cheekbones?

In short, could we pinch our earlobes or the lower lip and the discomfort would achieve the same end, or is it specific to this structure or nerve cluster?

 

[rhody]

Lets conduct a little informal test for the following parameters:

Does a certain level of discomfort need to be achieved to end the sneezing?
Can you do this without thinking about it, and achieve the same benefit?
Do we feel some pressure change in the base of the sinus, much as you might when applying pressure upwards beneath the cheekbones?

In short, could we pinch our earlobes or the lower lip and the discomfort would achieve the same end, or is it specific to this structure or nerve cluster?

nismaratwork,

The answer to your first question about discomfort is definitely, no, it happened again yesterday and just a light pressure applied to the upper lip (with shaking) does it. Second, this time I only did it till I felt the histamine release in my sinuses stop. No change in pressure in the base of sinus. I would say about 30 - 40 seconds tops instead of two minutes.

I will try lower lip, ear lobes as suggested, I also am going to try the dentist trick, squeezing and shaking a gum area before he puts the needle with nova-cane in. I am starting to think a sneezing fit comes from a build up, then sudden release of histamine due to reaction from airborne gunk (nice scientific word, hehe).

The geek in me says that over time I would not be surprised that the upper lip squeeze will not work as well due to desensitization from the same stimulus, I am guessing but I would say in four to six weeks. Only time will tell for sure. If that happens then I will need a new technique.

edit:

After I posted this, it seems I got into the sneezing cycle once again, and I tried the lower lip, same technique, and yes it seems to work the same way, next is ear lobes, then pressure on gums.

Rhody...

 

[nismaratwork]

nismaratwork,

The answer to your first question about discomfort is definitely, no, it happened again yesterday and just a light pressure applied to the upper lip (with shaking) does it. Second, this time I only did it till I felt the histamine release in my sinuses stop. No change in pressure in the base of sinus. I would say about 30 - 40 seconds tops instead of two minutes.

I will try lower lip, ear lobes as suggested, I also am going to try the dentist trick, squeezing and shaking a gum area before he puts the needle with nova-cane in. I am starting to think a sneezing fit comes from a build up, then sudden release of histamine due to reaction from airborne gunk (nice scientific word, hehe).

The geek in me says that over time I would not be surprised that the upper lip squeeze will not work as well due to desensitization from the same stimulus, I am guessing but I would say in four to six weeks. Only time will tell for sure. If that happens then I will need a new technique.

edit:

After I posted this, it seems I got into the sneezing cycle once again, and I tried the lower lip, same technique, and yes it seems to work the same way, next is ear lobes, then pressure on gums.

Rhody...

Huh, this is such an odd effect. You are a gentleman and a scholar for being so game to try other regions however, and may I thank you! I'll do the same, and I look forward to the results of this little test run. Now, where is my freshly ground black pepper...

 

[rhody]

Huh, this is such an odd effect. You are a gentleman and a scholar for being so game to try other regions however, and may I thank you! I'll do the same, and I look forward to the results of this little test run. Now, where is my freshly ground black pepper...

Yeah, now I am wondering if I did something rash, like repeatedly poke myself in the eye, if it would stop too. lol. Basically though, I think the brain maps that process sensation of histamine are being offset, or preempted if you will by the lip sensation. Maybe the processing (motor part) of the reaction (the sneeze) to the sensation is not being activated. Only a guess however.

Rhody... ahhhh ahhhh ahhhh ahhhh... whew... that was close...

 

[rhody]

I can report that squeezing the earlobes does not work, one rule of thumb when doing any test is that when applying pressure if it works you can immediately feel the histamine rush begin to subside. I tried the side of the lips, and that works, I am guessing but anywhere in the mouth sensory map area works, next is the gums, dentist style when applying novacane, stay tuned this is about as exciting as watching grass grow, lol.

Rhody...

P.S. I never realized it before, but just about everyday I have a small sneeze fit, hmmm, will have to work on that irritation next, any ideas how to stop before it starts ? Grab the lip quickly perhaps ?

 

[nismaratwork]

I can report that squeezing the earlobes does not work, one rule of thumb when doing any test is that when applying pressure if it works you can immediately feel the histamine rush begin to subside. I tried the side of the lips, and that works, I am guessing but anywhere in the mouth sensory map area works, next is the gums, dentist style when applying novacane, stay tuned this is about as exciting as watching grass grow, lol.

Rhody...

P.S. I never realized it before, but just about everyday I have a small sneeze fit, hmmm, will have to work on that irritation next, any ideas how to stop before it starts ? Grab the lip quickly perhaps ?

Interesting... I've found that it has to be around the mouth or nose as well. For the sneezing fits, I would tend to try and find a source of allergens or some regular event which triggers them before moving to some counter-stimulus.

 

[lisab]

So if the maneuver stops sneezes bye suppressing histamines somehow, why does it also stop muscle tics? Is there a histamine/allergy connection with twitches?

 

[rhody]

So if the maneuver stops sneezes bye suppressing histamines somehow, why does it also stop muscle tics? Is there a histamine/allergy connection with twitches?

lisa,

Do you mean like when you are low on say electrolites or a vitamin, and say your eye starts twitching ? My eye, left one used to twitch in response to unacknowledged stress, I know you are thinking, how do you know if you have it if you don't acknowledge it. Basically my eye would twitch and after getting mildly annoyed about it, I would remember some situation that bothered me, and I would then blame it on stress after the fact. It was either that or if I did stenuous activity without enough fluids or food, then the twitching could happen in my legs, neck, arms. In those two cases I don't think histamines were involved, just nerves and lack of fluids or nutrients. I will try to keep this in mind if I get muscle tics, and try same technique for them. Only time will tell.

Rhody...

 

[lisab]

lisa,

Do you mean like when you are low on say electrolites or a vitamin, and say your eye starts twitching ? My eye, left one used to twitch in response to unacknowledged stress, I know you are thinking, how do you know if you have it if you don't acknowledge it. Basically my eye would twitch and after getting mildly annoyed about it, I would remember some situation that bothered me, and I would then blame it on stress after the fact. It was either that or if I did stenuous activity without enough fluids or food, then the twitching could happen in my legs, neck, arms. In those two cases I don't think histamines were involved, just nerves and lack of fluids or nutrients. I will try to keep this in mind if I get muscle tics, and try same technique for them. Only time will tell.

Rhody...

Yes, that's exactly what I mean - and yes, they're so annoying. I get them when I'm tired and stressed too, despite being well hydrated. I think I may simply be prone to them. Working out regularly helps to prevent them. But the pinch often does the trick, stopping them probably over 75% of the time. It'll be interesting to hear if it works for you, too.

 

[rhody]

Yes, that's exactly what I mean - and yes, they're so annoying. I get them when I'm tired and stressed too, despite being well hydrated. I think I may simply be prone to them. Working out regularly helps to prevent them. But the pinch often does the trick, stopping them probably over 75% of the time. It'll be interesting to hear if it works for you, too.

lisa,

You mean stop them completely ? If you pinch for a short time, does it stop only for a short period, then continue, or for good ? How long do you have to the pinch to stop them for good ?

Rhody...

 

[lisab]

lisa,

You mean stop them completely ? If you pinch for a short time, does it stop only for a short period, then continue, or for good ? How long do you have to the pinch to stop them for good ?

Rhody...

It varies. Sometimes just a brief pinch stops a twitch for good. Other times, as soon as I stop the pinch it comes back.

On average, I'd say that applying pressure 15 to 30 seconds will stop a twitch.

 

[rhody]

FYI I got the hiccups last night and the lip touch does not work to relieve it.
I was hoping I would get lucky...

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

OK, this is a little different. This morning a strong histamine rush, followed by a strong sneeze, and then squeezing the lower lip and shaking worked, to a point, the histamine rush in the background was not going to give up without a fight (maybe an adaptation to squeezing the last three times) and came on stronger, to which I squeezed faster and a bit stronger, which suppressed it again. I then went slower and softer and it tried to come back AGAIN ! So I continued the stronger faster lip squeezing for about two minutes and it finally gave up the ghost. This to me anyway is an example of how your body adapts to any stimulus. We will see if it gets intense the next time. Hey, can I get a single college credit for this little experiemt, backed up with research ? lol.

Rhody...

 

[nismaratwork]

OK, this is a little different. This morning a strong histamine rush, followed by a strong sneeze, and then squeezing the lower lip and shaking worked, to a point, the histamine rush in the background was not going to give up without a fight (maybe an adaptation to squeezing the last three times) and came on stronger, to which I squeezed faster and a bit stronger, which suppressed it again. I then went slower and softer and it tried to come back AGAIN ! So I continued the stronger faster lip squeezing for about two minutes and it finally gave up the ghost. This to me anyway is an example of how your body adapts to any stimulus. We will see if it gets intense the next time. Hey, can I get a single college credit for this little experiemt, backed up with research ? lol.

Rhody...

Interesting, I'm also finding that this works for me as well, although I've not had as much cause to use it. I'm really interested in testing this on a muscle tic or spasm however, in addition to sneezing. If it works for one, it makes me wonder if Lisab is on to something here. I've been considering a good workout with low sodium (and a friend who's an EMT) to induce some calf spasms. If I can pull it off, I'll post how it goes here. I'm also going to chat with a spinal surgeon pal of mine and see what she thinks of this.

 

[lisab]

Interesting, I'm also finding that this works for me as well, although I've not had as much cause to use it. I'm really interested in testing this on a muscle tic or spasm however, in addition to sneezing. If it works for one, it makes me wonder if Lisab is on to something here. I've been considering a good workout with low sodium (and a friend who's an EMT) to induce some calf spasms. If I can pull it off, I'll post how it goes here. I'm also going to chat with a spinal surgeon pal of mine and see what she thinks of this.

That sounds great, nismar, I'm looking forward to hearing what the surgeon says. Careful with low-sodium workouts !

 

[rhody]

Interesting, I'm also finding that this works for me as well, although I've not had as much cause to use it. I'm really interested in testing this on a muscle tic or spasm however, in addition to sneezing. If it works for one, it makes me wonder if Lisab is on to something here. I've been considering a good workout with low sodium (and a friend who's an EMT) to induce some calf spasms. If I can pull it off, I'll post how it goes here. I'm also going to chat with a spinal surgeon pal of mine and see what she thinks of this.

nismaratwork,

Now let me get this straight, you are going to induce muscle spasms so you can test this theory by getting dehydrated on purpose ! You are one crazy dude, but I have to give you credit. I am more interested in the body's adaptation to suppressing the histamine and how it it dulls over time with the same or increasing stimulus. What it tells me by seat of the pants feel is that the brain is changing in response to a given stimulus, requiring more signal if you will to suppress the histamine.

This dovetails nicely with plasticity concepts in the brain book post(s) that I am working on. I would have more of them done by now, but two unexpected deaths in a row threw me for a loop, I am returning focus and effort to them now.

Rhody...

P.S. For any of you considering writing a "War and Peace" post, the limit is 20,000 characters. Don't ask how I know this, however. hehe

 

[nismaratwork]

nismaratwork,

Now let me get this straight, you are going to induce muscle spasms so you can test this theory by getting dehydrated on purpose ! You are one crazy dude, but I have to give you credit. I am more interested in the body's adaptation to suppressing the histamine and how it it dulls over time with the same or increasing stimulus. What it tells me by seat of the pants feel is that the brain is changing in response to a given stimulus, requiring more signal if you will to suppress the histamine.

This dovetails nicely with plasticity concepts in the brain book post(s) that I am working on. I would have more of them done by now, but two unexpected deaths in a row threw me for a loop, I am returning focus and effort to them now.

Rhody...

P.S. For any of you considering writing a "War and Peace" post, the limit is 20,000 characters. Don't ask how I know this, however. hehe

"Curiosity killed the cat... but satisfaction brought it back." You bet your behind that I'm going to try and induce cramping! I'll be very careful, with bouillon and a banana on standby. We need to have some notion as to whether this is a localized response, or if Lisab's premise is correct. I'll be careful, and asap with the surgeon. I'm really starting to enjoy this!

 

[rhody]

"Curiosity killed the cat... but satisfaction brought it back." You bet your behind that I'm going to try and induce cramping! I'll be very careful, with bouillon and a banana on standby. We need to have some notion as to whether this is a localized response, or if Lisab's premise is correct. I'll be careful, and asap with the surgeon. I'm really starting to enjoy this!

nismaratwork,

You really are a true curious scientific soul at heart, if pinching the lip ever stops working, I will try a few good lip slaps to see if the residual stinging sensation stops it, that is only in the event that, the lip pinch/wiggle stops working. I plan to try the grab the gums and wiggle dentist trick as well. Something tells me that it will not work, only time will tell.

As for cramps, what about muscle electrical stimulation, with enough transducer power and the right frequency, I bet that would do the trick. Using one of those machines had the opposite effect on me, it stopped a neck muscle ache for over two hours, from only five minutes of stimulation. I bet it could be used to induce localized muscle spasms, from overstimulating the brain maps associated with the muscle nerve endings.

Rhody...

P.S. edit:

I couldn't resist looking into the book, The Brain that Changes Itself, and found the section on pain, most notable the research conducted by Ronald Melzack and Patrick Wall (two of the most notable experts on pain according to the author of the book, Norman Doidge),

Check this out:

(Paraphrased from Page 190) Their theory asserts that the pain system is spread throughout the brain and spinal chord. The assert the brain always controls the pain signals we feel. When pain messages are sent from the tissue sensing it, the brain always controls the pain signals were feel. This is referred to as the "gate control theory of pain". The pain signals pass through several gates starting in thew spinal chord. The pain signals only continue if the brain gives permission, if allowed the brain will open the gate and increase the feeling of pain by allowing certain neurons to turn on and transmit their signals. The brain prevents the pain from being relayed by releasing endorphins to decrease the pain.

Further info from Melzack's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Melzack" on two types of pain, sudden short term and prolonged long term pain:

Melzack's recent research at McGill indicates that there are two types of pain, transmitted by two separate sets of pain-signaling pathways in the central nervous system. Sudden, short-term pain, such as the pain of cutting a finger, is transmitted by a group of pathways that Melzack calls the "lateral" system, because they pass through the brain stem on one side of its central core. Prolonged pain, on the other hand, such as chronic back pain, is transmitted by the "medial" system, whose neurons pass through the central core of the brain stem..

 

[rhody]

Ok, the sneezing cycle tried to rear it's ugly head once again, fairly strong histamine rush at the start too. I grabbed the lower lip for a few seconds, then remembered the grab the rear gums squeeze shake routine and switched to that for about a minute, it went away just as it did with the lip squeeze/shake, whereas it did not when I grabbed my ear lobe a few times before. I will wait for the next round and start with the gum squeeze/shake and see if it does it by itself, I suspect it does. Glad it happens mostly at home though, it looks really goofy when you gum grab, hehe. I may try the tongue too, just for laughs.

Rhody...

 

[lisab]

Ok, the sneezing cycle tried to rear it's ugly head once again, fairly strong histamine rush at the start too. I grabbed the lower lip for a few seconds, then remembered the grab the rear gums squeeze shake routine and switched to that for about a minute, it went away just as it did with the lip squeeze/shake, whereas it did not when I grabbed my ear lobe a few times before. I will wait for the next round and start with the gum squeeze/shake and see if it does it by itself, I suspect it does. Glad it happens mostly at home though, it looks really goofy when you gum grab, hehe. I may try the tongue too, just for laughs.

Rhody...

I bet it's the sudden urgency of it that would strike an observer as odd .

 

[rhody]

I bet it's the sudden urgency of it that would strike an observer as odd .

When you say "it" what are you referring to ? The histamine rush just before and continuing through the sneezing fit ? or something else entirely ? Or grabbing your lip or gums like an idiot in response to it ?

Rhody...

 

[lisab]

When you say "it" what are you referring to ? The histamine rush just before and continuing through the sneezing fit ? or something else entirely ? Or grabbing your lip or gums like an idiot in response to it ?

Rhody...

The grabbing, lol...

 

[rhody]

The grabbing, lol...

Yeah, most times it happens at home, a few times at work, people think you may have broke a tooth or something like that. I try to put my head down when it happens to hide it somewhat. It's better then sneezing 5 or more times though.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

Last night it happened again, and yes grabbing and slight shaking of your gum's appears to stop it by itself. Ok, the tongue shake and grab is next.

Nismaratwork,

How about you, any luck, inducing and controlling muscle spasms ?

Rhody...

Edit: 7:10 am

I got to work this morning (slightly stuffy which may have contributed to strong histamine release), and garbbed the lip, squeezed and wiggled as usual (before first sneeze) and nothing, nada, big sneeze, kept it up, harder after first sneeze and nothing again, second sneeze, then it abruptly stopped. Maybe there is a certain threshold that with enough histamine release nothing will stop it, or as I said earlier the squeeze is not having the same effect, due to repitition over time, hard to say for sure.

 

[nismaratwork]

Last night it happened again, and yes grabbing and slight shaking of your gum's appears to stop it by itself. Ok, the tongue shake and grab is next.

Nismaratwork,

How about you, any luck, inducing and controlling muscle spasms ?

Rhody...

Edit: 7:1- am

I got to work this morning (slightly stuffy which may have contributed to strong histamine release), and garbbed the lip, squeezed and wiggled as usual (before first sneeze) and nothing, nada, big sneeze, kept it up, harder after first sneeze and nothing again, second sneeze, then it abruptly stopped. Maybe there is a certain threshold that with enough histamine release nothing will stop it, or as I said earlier the squeeze is not having the same effect, due to repitition over time, hard to say for sure.

Ok... spinal surgeon has no idea why this would work, beyond some vague notion of one input taking precedence over others... a bit like fight or flight. I think that's possible, but it was just personal speculation. I'll be doing my workout this Wednesday, so here's hoping for a charlie horse!

I'm definitely leaning towards the notion that this is an issue of pressure points: nerves, vascular pressure points, and maybe even bone. I wonder if digging into clavicle would have an effect, or a gentle massage of the brachial or femoral artery where it nears the surface. Even in the absence of perceived discomfort, I think there is an "alarm" occurring as sensitive regions like the tongue, gums, ears, and philtrum are being manipulated. I wonder if this is something which occurs in the brain, or if it begins and perhaps ends in the spinal cord. In that case, it may be the reaction to histamines being blocked, not the release of the histamines in the first place. This would fit with the general "tic" notion. Priority is given to the possible damage of a sensitive region.

 

[rhody]

Ok... spinal surgeon has no idea why this would work, beyond some vague notion of one input taking precedence over others

I'm definitely leaning towards the notion that this is an issue of pressure points: nerves, vascular pressure points, and maybe even bone. I wonder if digging into clavicle would have an effect, or a gentle massage of the brachial or femoral artery where it nears the surface. Even in the absence of perceived discomfort, I think there is an "alarm" occurring as sensitive regions like the tongue, gums, ears, and philtrum are being manipulated. I wonder if this is something which occurs in the brain, or if it begins and perhaps ends in the spinal cord. In that case, it may be the reaction to histamines being blocked, not the release of the histamines in the first place. This would fit with the general "tic" notion. Priority is given to the possible damage of a sensitive region.

My guess is that from studying synesthesia and now Brain Plasticity, that I believe that the lip sensory maps, and the histamine activation centers controlled in the brain lie close to one another, if the sensory lip brain maps generate a higher amplitude signal, it could diminish the sensory maps in the nose that provide that feedback histamine rush feeling you get before sneezing. Too bad you don't have any neurologist friends to ask. In any event whatever the truth turns out to be I for one would like a piece of it, hehe.

Rhody...

Edit:

Lisa:

Do you ever experience sneezing fits, and if so do the techniques described here work for you ?

 

[lisab]

My guess is that from studying synesthesia and now Brain Plasticity, that I bel;ieve that the lip sensory maps, and the histamine activation centers controlled in the brain lie close to one another, if the sensory lip brain maps generate a higher amplitude signal, it could diminish the sensory maps in the nose that provide that feedback histamine rush feeling you get before sneezing. Too bad you don't have any neurologist friends to ask. In any event whatever the truth turns out to be I for one would like a piece of it, hehe.

Rhody...

Edit:

Lisa:

Do you ever experience sneezing fits, and if so do the techniques described here work for you ?

My sneezes come in singles, and yes this technique is very effective in stopping them. However I rarely use it, since they aren't too disruptive.

 

[rhody]

My sneezes come in singles, and yes this technique is very effective in stopping them. However I rarely use it, since they aren't too disruptive.

Lisa,

Thanks, I probably wouldn't either, I am glad you are not prone to multiple histamine rushes that come in waves like I am. Now, if only I could somehow sense them before they became a real rush, and stop them, I would be really impressed.

I seem to have fairly good associative memory and can make connections of many different subjects small details, probably a sign of a healthy active left/right pre-frontal cortex. I can't help but imagine that having ADD and mild OCD may somehow have something to do with waves of histamine rushes, because each condition means that parts of my brain are overstimulated at times and well as some kind of escalating electrical and chemical feedback neural activity in the three OCD areas that I have mentioned in another post.

Sometimes my associations are valid and even surprise myself when I am right. Other times I find myself going down a lonely path to a dead end, but the fun for me is the research part and persistence necessary to stick with something until you discover something new or give up, having exhausted all reasonable options. The fun is in the journey and not the result, at least for me.

Eventually, I predict we will reach a consensus of why touching/shaking the lip stops a histamine rush that comes in waves, or for a single event. If Nismaratwork proves to his satisfaction that muscle spams can be stopped in a similar fashion that may give us another piece of the puzzle to add to a theory of why this condition exists.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

Alright, for the last two day a pattern is emerging, in the morning between 7 - 9 am first histamine, slow build slow release cycle hits, I was able to stop it this morning with the usual one to two minute lip grab, shake routine. At night however, different story, usually sometime between 8 - 10 pm, the last two nights while posting on PF, can you say keyboard ewww... , the histamine rush is urgent, strong and cannot be stopped with same technique used in the am. I am convinced now that it has to do with the amount, period and release cycle of the histamine rush itself, other than the brain's adaptation to the grabbing/shaking (I know what you are thinking by now Lisa, don't go there... lol). I started to look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histamine" and as usual feel a bit overwhelmed, which is normal. Turns out there are four types of histamine receptor's in the brain, a good start, but: I am thinking H1 receptor is mostly involved in these antic's. Any experts on histamine out there care to weigh in with knowledge, background, links would greatly be appreciated.

Type Location Function

H1 histamine receptor Found on smooth muscle, endothelium, and central nervous system tissue Causes vasodilation, bronchoconstriction, bronchial smooth muscle contraction, separation of endothelial cells (responsible for hives), and pain and itching due to insect stings; the primary receptors involved in allergic rhinitis symptoms and motion sickness; sleep regulation.
H2 histamine receptor Located on parietal cells Primarily stimulate gastric acid secretion
H3 histamine receptor Found on central nervous system and to a lesser extent peripheral nervous system tissue Decreased neurotransmitter release: histamine, acetylcholine, norepinephrine, serotonin
H4 histamine receptor Found primarily in the basophils and in the bone marrow. It is also found on thymus, small intestine, spleen, and colon. Plays a role in chemotaxis.

OK, a little more digging and my personal mystery deepens further:
I have been having trouble sleeping through the night for years, maybe my little histamine friends (err... should I say enemies have something to do with it)
Are there any tests you can do before you wake up to see if histamine is being released, I can tell you with 100% certainty, I never wake up sneezing.

It has been shown that histaminergic cells have the most wakefulness-related firing pattern of any neuronal type thus far recorded. They fire rapidly during waking, fire more slowly during periods of relaxation/tiredness and completely stop firing during REM and NREM (non-REM) sleep. Histaminergic cells can be recorded firing just before an animal shows signs of waking.

A little more probing, and Holy Crap ! (I promised after the synesthesia thread I wouldn't do this but I couldn't help it) Could this be one of the reasons why my OCD and worry are fading ? Replaced by a soothing histamine rush ! Are you freaking kidding me. I will take that any day of the week, now if I could only stop sneezing fits that would be great. If this is the case, I want to know how I made this transition over the past six months, was sustained focused attention and a feeling of accomplishment all that was necessary ? If so I wish I could bottle and sell it, but I can't !

While histamine has stimulatory effects upon neurons, it also has suppressive ones that protect against the susceptibility to convulsion, drug sensitization, denervation supersensitivity, ischemic lesions and stress.[6] It has also been suggested that histamine controls the mechanisms by which memories and learning are forgotten.

rhody...

 

[Coopster]

I am wondering aloud if there is a possible relationship between the ability of the lip squeezing to stop autonomic functions (sneezing) and the number of nerve endings that exist in the lip.

For those of us fortunate enough to have enjoyed passionate coitus, it is well known that the lips and ear lobes can become highly erogenous zones.

 

[nismaratwork]

I am wondering aloud if there is a possible relationship between the ability of the lip squeezing to stop autonomic functions (sneezing) and the number of nerve endings that exist in the lip.

For those of us fortunate enough to have enjoyed passionate coitus, it is well known that the lips and ear lobes can become highly erogenous zones.

It strikes me as likely, which is why I'm wondering about other pressure points, and whether only those with nervous involvement matter. Will an insult to a vascular pressure point have a similar effect?

One way to settle this could be done in private... simple stimulate the genitalia (yeah, I'm keeping this technical) and see if that is effective. Other possible regions could be behind the knees, the arch of the foot, and so forth. Hell, maybe this is a new way to get a little extra sex in, "Honey, I'm having an allergy attack, quick, to the bedroom/kitchen-tabel!" :)

 

[rhody]

More digging, and I find this http://www.rainbowminerals.net/histamine_factor.html" , first I am not so impressed, because it is from a vitamin store, but the background they present, seems to coincide somewhat to the last link I read on histamine, then, I find this:

foods high in folates (folic Acid) should be avoided. folic acid can cause a cascading histamine reaction... Folates are known to cause the release of histamines.

First red flag goes up, I have been taking folic acid supplements for over six months now, never aware that an increased level of histamines are released because of taking a daily dose, (400 mg), which could be contributing to sneezing fits. Then this:

Histamine makes the smooth muscles in the walls of the lungs, blood vessels, stomach, intestines and bladder contract. This contraction brings on a wide range of symptoms. Histamine in the lungs causes wheezing. Histamine also indirectly stimulates the production of thick, sticky mucus.

Histamine is the prime mediator in type 1 allergic reactions such as hay fever. Almost everyone has taken an antihistamine to treat hay fever and itching, to relieve nausea and vomiting or cold symptoms, or as an aid to sleep. The popularity of antihistamines is a mute testimony to the negative effects of histamine in the body. To get a good idea of what histamine can do, let us imagine the effects of an injection of a small amount.
Histamine carries its message to a large number of cells by attaching to a special receptor on the cells' surfaces. There are two kinds of histamine receptors, H1 and H2. The H1 and H2 receptors both receive histamine as a messenger, but the meaning taken by the different receptors is different. H1 receptors tend to produce the symptoms already listed and activate the allergic reaction. H2 receptors tend to act as negative feedback receptors and turn the allergic reaction off. H2 receptors also exclusively activate the acid-producing, parietal cells of the stomach lining.

Histamine dilates blood vessels and acts with prostaglandins, PGE2 and PGI2, to produce the early swelling, redness and heat of an inflammatory response. The same mediators may sensitize nerve endings to other pain-producing mediators such as bradykinin. An initial burst of mediator activity will often set a series of cell responses in motion, which will amplify and prolong disturbances for days or weeks. Once inflammation is established in tissues by immune cell invasion and mediator release, recovery may take several weeks.

finally, this:

A survey in 1994 showed that 72% of women and 42% of men aged between 19 and 50, and 89% of females aged 16-18 years do not achieve the RNI for magnesium. Low levels of magnesium in the diet and in our bodies increase susceptibility to a variety of diseases, including heart disease, high blood pressure, kidney stones, cancer, insomnia, PMS, and menstrual cramps. Signs and symptoms of magnesium deficiency are fatigue, mental confusion, irritability, weakness, heart disturbance, problems in nervous conduction and muscle contraction, muscle cramps, loss of appetite, insomnia and predisposition to stress.

Now this article has my FULL attention, because we are talking about muscle spasms, the release of histamines play a major role in the condition. And my chronic almost like clockwork morning and evening sneezing fits, can you see where this is going !?

Four days ago I decide to stop taking folic acid, 400 mg, and add magnesium 250 mg twice daily, and I can't say with 100% certainty, but I have not had a sneezing fit since.
It could be A: something in the environment changed, and the sneezing fits stopped. B: taking Folic acid was contributing to histamine rush, removing it caused the histamine rush to stop in combination with the addition of magnesium supplement. C: I plan to wait a week or so, if still no sneezing fits, I will stop taking the magnesium, and start the folic acid once more, if the sneezing fits return morning/night then I will be pretty certain that the folic acid made it worse. Nice to know that excess histamine's can cause muscle spasms as well, which would explain why lessening histamine rush helps in relieving them. The real test would be to have someone give me a placebo, one for folic acid, the other for magnesium and see what the results were, however, that would not be practical.

From the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histamine" article with four classes of histamines receptors involved in many areas of the body's functions, sleep being one of them:

Sleep regulation
Histamine is released as a neurotransmitter. The cell bodies of neurons which release histamine are found in the posterior hypothalamus, in various tuberomammillary nuclei. From here, these histaminergic neurons project throughout the brain, to the cortex through the medial forebrain bundle. Histaminergic action is known to modulate sleep. Classically, antihistamines (H1 histamine receptor antagonists) produce sleep. Likewise, destruction of histamine releasing neurons, or inhibition of histamine synthesis leads to an inability to maintain vigilance. Finally, H3 receptor antagonists increase wakefulness.

It has been shown that histaminergic cells have the most wakefulness-related firing pattern of any neuronal type thus far recorded. They fire rapidly during waking, fire more slowly during periods of relaxation/tiredness and completely stop firing during REM and NREM (non-REM) sleep. Histaminergic cells can be recorded firing just before an animal shows signs of waking.

I have excess calcium which is harmful, and magnesium helps to metabolize it properly: I have a friend who under a Dr's care has been prescribed magnesium for her severe allergies, so I know I am on the right track. See quote below from the first link at the beginning of this post:

The human body needs water-soluble magnesium to utilize calcium properly. Your body needs about two parts magnesium for every one part calcium for best antioxidant effects.* If you have proper magnesium levels, the body can use the calcium it needs and discharge the rest. Most people have more calcium in their diets than they need but an absolute shortage of magnesium. Of even more concern is the fact that the average American diet makes very little allowance for magnesium. It is of concern that large doses of calcium are currently being promoted in our diets without proper magnesium supplementation.

Rhody...

 

[nismaratwork]

Good read Rhody, I have to think about this one.

Now, the results of my workout:

1 NASTY charlie horse, and no effect regardless of what was pinched or prodded. I drank some gatorade, and drank water, and all is well. It may be that a significant electrolyte imbalance and workout designed to induce cramping is not what this would work for anyway, so no proof against the method... just no confirmation. Ah well.

 

[lisab]

Good read Rhody, I have to think about this one.

Now, the results of my workout:

1 NASTY charlie horse, and no effect regardless of what was pinched or prodded. I drank some gatorade, and drank water, and all is well. It may be that a significant electrolyte imbalance and workout designed to induce cramping is not what this would work for anyway, so no proof against the method... just no confirmation. Ah well.

Ouch! Way to take one for the team, nismar! Like I said in the OP, I rarely get full-on cramps, but I know they hurt.

 

[nismaratwork]

Ouch! Way to take one for the team, nismar! Like I said in the OP, I rarely get full-on cramps, but I know they hurt.

I felt "less than fresh" for an hour or so, but the acute pain was transient. I'm wondering now if a little electric current from a therapeutic "stim" device might be used to set off a series of tics. Once turned off, if the tics persist, perhaps this attempt might be employed. As it happens, I have a good friend who's a physical therapist, and she'd probably join in as well as some of her staff. Sample size, here we come! I'll let you all know if I can do this, and how it pans out.

 

[Moonbear]

Sometimes it takes 30 seconds or so of pressing, and sometimes it only works when the pressure is applied.

Have you often had muscle tics/spasms that last longer than 30 seconds? That sounds like about the same amount of time for them to just go away on their own.

For controlling sneezing, it makes more sense. The nerves in the upper lip are branches of the same nerve root as those supplying the nose (same reason why many people will notice their nose and upper lip goes numb when the dentist numbs their upper teeth for dental work).

 

[lisab]

Have you often had muscle tics/spasms that last longer than 30 seconds? That sounds like about the same amount of time for them to just go away on their own.

For controlling sneezing, it makes more sense. The nerves in the upper lip are branches of the same nerve root as those supplying the nose (same reason why many people will notice their nose and upper lip goes numb when the dentist numbs their upper teeth for dental work).

Oh they can last hours, sometimes days . I've had them all my life, I remember having them as a small child, even. I'm careful about my diet and even take vitamin supplements, and I'm certain it's not related to dehydration. I think I'm just prone to getting them.

When I learned of this technique I was thrilled!

 

[nismaratwork]

Oh they can last hours, sometimes days . I've had them all my life, I remember having them as a small child, even. I'm careful about my diet and even take vitamin supplements, and I'm certain it's not related to dehydration. I think I'm just prone to getting them.

When I learned of this technique I was thrilled!

Hmmm, if the question is not too intrusive, are these tics primarily in the small muscles of the face? If so, maybe this is all about stimulating cranial nerves and branches and Moonbear has said.

 

[lisab]

Hmmm, if the question is not too intrusive, are these tics primarily in the small muscles of the face? If so, maybe this is all about stimulating cranial nerves and branches and Moonbear has said.

They can be anywhere. The longest-lasting one was on my back, between the scapula, on the right side. The weirdest one was a lower abdominal muscle...sort reminded me of my daughter's kicking, when I was pregnant!

 

[nismaratwork]

Ok... I'm stumped... Moonbear?