Is It Justifiable for Police to Use a Taser on a 10-Year-Old?

[Hurkyl]

Less-lethal weapons are to be used in situations where the police officer feels justified in using lethal force but thinks that by using less-lethal force he can difuse the situation without cause death.

Is this meant to be a necessary condition, or a sufficient condition? That is, legally in the U.S., a taser may only be used when lethal force is justified?

I know that what justifies lethal force varies over time with the methods available, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

But anyways, this is just law -- it doesn't really address the moral outrage people are having (whether they should have it or not). There's obviously some correlation, but the thing I would really like to know is the level of risk.

Obviously, people can die from taser use. But people can die simply from all sorts of trivial things too, so that doesn't tell us anything meaningful.

Also, knowing the level of risk of taser use doesn't tell us whether it's better or worse than some other approach -- to know that, we also have to know something about the risk of the other approach.

 

[Hurkyl]

It is incredible that this issue is still being debated. It is shocking and frightening that such violent methods of establishing discipline on children are being favoured by intelligent individuals.

Maybe if you debated intelligently, it would have been wrapped up by now.

The herd of sheep is so terrified nowadays , that will let the Shepard dog do anything to them , in the hope the wise Shepard dog will think for them, and deliver them from the menace of the Big Bad Wolf.

Er, this doesn't make any sense... you're the one being a sheep...

 

[Pattonias]

I just thought of this, but isn't the responsibility on the mother for involving the police in the first place. If this girl had been doing this somewhere else I could see this scenario happening in a slightly more reasonable light. The mother invited an outside source of authority because she, for whatever reason, could not or did not handle it herself. I think the results are more on her than the police. Why didn't she call her ex-husband or a relative? Why did she go straight to the local law enforcement?

 

[DanP]

Er, this doesn't make any sense... you're the one being a sheep...

Eh, you are then the Big Bad Wolf ?

 

[WaveJumper]

Maybe if you debated intelligently, it would have been wrapped up by now.

That's the intelligent reply i was expecting to see.

Er, this doesn't make any sense... you're the one being a sheep...

Same here.

 

[DanP]

Also, knowing the level of risk of taser use doesn't tell us whether it's better or worse than some other approach -- to know that, we also have to know something about the risk of the other approach.

Make a study on how many children died as a result of handling (with no violent intentions) by parents in the last millennium in similar cases. Peer review it, then we will have meaningful data.

 

[DanP]

I just thought of this, but isn't the responsibility on the mother for involving the police in the first place. If this girl had been doing this somewhere else I could see this scenario happening in a slightly more reasonable light. The mother invited an outside source of authority because she, for whatever reason, could not or did not handle it herself. I think the results are more on her than the police. Why didn't she call her ex-husband or a relative? Why did she go straight to the local law enforcement?

If foul play is involved , it makes no difference who invited who from the point of view of criminal law.

I can tell you "go break into that house" , but if you do, you can and will be hold accountable.

 

[Dembadon]

It is incredible that this issue is still being debated. It is shocking and frightening that such violent methods of establishing discipline on children are being favoured by intelligent individuals.

I don't think anyone here is fully onboard with the officer's choice in this particular case; however, I do think it's wise to admit that the account given in Borek's link may not be comprehensive, as Evo pointed out.

Tasering (if that's even a word) a child does sound a bit extreme at first, but none of us were on scene. As has already been mentioned, there could have been variables present which would have made other methods of restraint more dangerous. To assume that the article contains all the variables / facts would be a mistake.

 

[DanP]

I don't think anyone here is fully onboard with the officer's choice in this particular case; however, I do think it's wise to admit that the account given in Borek's link may not be comprehensive, as Evo pointed out.

This was pointed time and again by many persons in this thread, and there are some legitimate cases where a taser might be a good solution , and I enumerated them.

The issue is that some ppl defend taser use in general by implying it may be "safer" on the child than the time tried and tested approach of gentle but firm restraining of the child. As I pointed to you in a previous answer, this was done by parents all over the world in all times.

Makes you really wonder how the heck our parents managed whiteout tasers :P

But, you can at any time make experiments. Procreate a children. When he is 10 and you need to discipline him a little, tase him. Se how it feels. Move the child gently butfirmly. See how it feels. Tase again if you are not satisfied.

Try a taser on yourself. See the amount of pain inflicted. Then compare with a gentle but firm push from a parent. I also wonder if the Chief of Police always used tasers on his children when he needed to discipline them a little because they wouldn't wash their hands. Or if he handcuffs his children or pin them to the earth. Or if he just used old and tried method of parental control, like a loving parent would do.

 

[Evo]

This was pointed time and again by many persons in this thread, and there are some legitimate cases where a taser might be a good solution , and I enumerated them.

The issue is that some ppl defend taser use in general by implying it may be "safer" on the child than the time tried and tested approach of gentle but firm restraining of the child. As I pointed to you in a previous answer, this was done by parents all over the world in all times.

Makes you really wonder how the heck our parents they managed whiteout tasers :P

But, you can at any time make experiments. Procreate a children. When he is 10 and you need to discipline him a little, tase him. Se how it feels. Move the child gently butfirmly. See how it feels. Tase again if you are not satisfied.

Try a taser on yourself. See the amount of pain inflicted. Then compare with a gentle but firm push from a parent.


I also wonder if the Chief of Police always used tasers on his children when he needed to discipline them a little because they wouldn't wash their hands. Or if he handcuffs his children or pin them to the earth. Or if he just used old and tried method of parental control, like a loving parent would do.

Since we don't know the details, this is going off on a bit of a tangent.

 

[Hurkyl]

The issue is that some ppl defend taser use in general by implying it may be "safer" on the child than the time tried and tested approach of gentle but firm restraining of the child.

Who did that?

Without evidence in hand, one should object both to claims that tasers are riskier and to claims that tasers are safer.

If I had noticed, I would have objected. (Or, I might not have bothered, if someone else already addressed it)

When I have objected to your ridiculous posts, it's not because I believe in the opposing position -- it's because your posts are ridiculous.

 

[DanP]

Since we don't know the details, this is going off on a bit of a tangent.

Nevertheless , it covers the general case , and hence it covers the in general the "debate" of what is safer,
teasering a child, or doing what Moonbear did with her step-nephew, and what parents in this world do.

We do no know what exactly happened in this particular case, but I feel pretty safely when I
state that in general, normal parenting methods used until today, are pretty safe, they don't kill children or harm them , and no sane parent would consider whatever a taser if safer and better to use over this method.

 

[DanP]

When I have objected to your ridiculous posts, it's not because I believe in the opposing position -- it's because your posts are ridiculous.

Dont worry, Your posts are also ridiculous.

Now, if youll do the research I asked, we can continue the conversation your way , comparing teaser risk, vs the normal methods used in parenting.

 

[Borek]

Looks like I have finally managed to start a thread that will get locked because of the flame war! Yippee-ki-yay :tongue:

 

[DanP]

Who did that?

See below. My bold.

You've brought an excellent perspective to this discussion.

I admit to being ignorant regarding the use of tasers and your post encouraged me to look them up. I saw a common denominator in the articles I read; if a person has a pre-existing heart condition, they can potentially cause problems. This is rare, however, and my findings may tip the scales in the favor of a grown man being more likely to harm a child by using other (physical) methods.

Thanks for your thoughts, Hurkyl.

While it is somewhat prudent formulation, it leans towards taser use.

 

[DanP]

Who did that?

See below. My bold.

You've brought an excellent perspective to this discussion.

I admit to being ignorant regarding the use of tasers and your post encouraged me to look them up. I saw a common denominator in the articles I read; if a person has a pre-existing heart condition, they can potentially cause problems. This is rare, however, and my findings may tip the scales in the favor of a grown man being more likely to harm a child by using other (physical) methods.

Thanks for your thoughts, Hurkyl.

While it is a somewhat prudent formulation, it leans towards taser use.

 

[Evo]

Borek wins! He is now a member of the thread killer's club.

 

[russ_watters]

Borek wins! He is now a member of the thread killer's club.

Technically speaking, Borek didn't kill the thread, he only started a thread that got killed! :tongue: