1ve broken the 1st law of thermodynamics, ive created energy

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of energy conservation in the context of light reflection, particularly involving mirrors and light sources. Participants explore whether energy can be created through reflection and the implications of such a claim on the laws of thermodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that mirrors create a new light source by reflecting light, leading to the claim that energy is being created.
  • Another participant counters that reflection results in energy loss, not creation, emphasizing that the incoming energy is reduced upon reflection.
  • A different viewpoint mentions that while more energy may appear to be present with two beams, it does not equate to the creation of energy, as the total energy remains conserved.
  • Some participants discuss the behavior of photons during reflection, questioning whether they become blue-shifted or red-shifted based on energy transfer during the interaction.
  • There are references to the sun's continuous emission of light, suggesting that the original claim ignores the broader context of light sources and energy dissipation.
  • One participant humorously remarks on the absurdity of breaking the laws of physics, while others engage with the humor and seriousness of the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the interpretation of energy conservation in the context of light reflection. Multiple competing views remain on whether energy can be considered created or merely redirected, and the discussion does not reach a consensus.

Contextual Notes

Some claims rely on assumptions about the behavior of light and energy that are not fully explored, such as the definitions of energy and power, and the implications of photon interactions during reflection.

mramz88
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i think

mirrors reflect light and light source 1 with x energy is reflected by the mirror which uses some of that energy to create a double of that light source and thus creating light source y. is light being created?

PHYSICS IS BROKEN. LOOK TOWARDS THE SKY IF U CAN SPOT THE TEAR IN SPACETIME

oh and i know the question sounds like a homework question but IT IS NOT. its a personal question of something i was thinking about yesterday
 

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Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
 
mramz88 said:
mirrors reflect light and light source 1 with x energy is reflected by the mirror which uses some of that energy to create a double of that light source and thus creating light source y. is light being created?
No. Think of the incoming beam as sending a certain amount of energy towards the mirror per second; the reflection has less energy--you're losing energy, not creating it!

PHYSICS IS BROKEN. LOOK TOWARDS THE SKY IF U CAN SPOT THE TEAR IN SPACETIME
Those are tears of laughter, not tears in spacetime. :smile:
 
Yes the two beams have more energy than the one beam would if the mirror were replaced with an opaque surface. When pointing a laser into space you can create a beam with an arbitrarily large energy content... But it may be useful to learn the difference between energy and power ;)
 
Those are tears of laughter, not tears in spacetime. :smile:
Great joke, Doc! I must appreciate your sense of humour.
 
nice but there is one minor problem...u haven't actually "Created Energy"..
 
I must be missing something. You've got 1000 lumens coming in and 900 lumens going out. Where is this extra energy you claim?

Are you suggesting that the sun and the sun's reflection in the mirror are both light sources for a total of 1900 lumens?
 
Born2bwire said:
Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

A classic line.
 
I enjoy how light curves in your second diagram.
 
  • #10
flatmaster said:
I enjoy how light curves in your second diagram.

At least she's not ignoring gravity, although I don't see a source for it...
 
  • #11
If you bounce a ball of the wall a ball bounces back. Doesn't mean you have doubled anything. If you bounce a light packet off a mirror it bounces back.
 
  • #12
I think what you're failing to realize is that, whether or not you've set up a mirror, the sun is putting out X lumens of light in all directions all the time. Except for the light that impinges on your detector, all the rest of that light just gets absorbed or otherwise dissipated.

What you are considering your "system" (the elements you consider important to your experiment) competely ignores this sunlight.

Inserting a mirror into the area where sunlight is streaming merely redirects existing sunlight, causing you to now consider it as part of your "system".

All you've done is make the light ray equivalent of a funnel, gathering it from a wider area and redirecting it to a smaller area.
 
  • #13
This does bring up an interesting point now though.

A single photon reflects off of a surface in free space. The photon transfers some momentum to the object. To conserve energy, the photon must loose energy. Must the photon become blue-shifted?
 
  • #14
flatmaster said:
This does bring up an interesting point now though.

A single photon reflects off of a surface in free space. The photon transfers some momentum to the object. To conserve energy, the photon must loose energy. Must the photon become blue-shifted?

No, it would be red shifted because it lost energy in the interaction. Although I'm thinking (I may be wrong) that you probably wouldn't really call it red shift, because the original photon was absorbed, the interaction happened, and another (different) photon was emitted with the energy not absorbed. One normally thinks of red shift as something that happens to the original photon regardless of any interaction (or I do, anyway).
 
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  • #15
Doc Al said:
Those are tears of laughter, not tears in spacetime. :smile:

Good one!
 
  • #16
ibcnunabit said:
No, it would be red shifted because it lost energy in the interaction. Although I'm thinking (I may be wrong) that you probably wouldn't really call it red shift, because the original photon was absorbed, the interaction happened, and another (different) photon was emitted with the energy not absorbed. One normally thinks of red shift as something that happens to the original photon regardless of any interaction (or I do, anyway).

Shifts are due to relative velocity bet source and observer, you receive more no. of photons in the front than at rest so frequency increases and the spectrum blueshifts. The opposite on the back
Here it does not shift(you do not see color change after reflcn)
Waves are either reflected, absorbed or transmitted on interaction with matter
If more than one of the three happens its intensity(amplitude )decreases
Try this link:http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/wavebasics/
For detail, see Beer-lambert law
 
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  • #17
mramz88 said:
PHYSICS IS BROKEN.

Well if you break it, you bought it.
 

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