A conceptual question regarding self-inductance

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter musicianship
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Conceptual
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of self-induced electromotive force (emf) in a solenoid coil, specifically in relation to Lenz's Law and its implications for the polarity of induced emf during changes in current. Participants explore the theoretical aspects of inductance and the behavior of induced currents in response to varying magnetic flux, with references to specific figures from a physics textbook.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the polarity of the induced emf in a solenoid when the current increases, suggesting it should oppose the change in magnetic flux, leading to a different polarity than what is depicted in the textbook.
  • Another participant supports the textbook's depiction, arguing that the induced emf acts like a battery, creating a current that opposes the original current, thus validating the shown polarity.
  • A participant elaborates on the analogy of the solenoid's behavior to a bar magnet, asserting that the induced emf must create a magnetic field opposing the increasing magnetic flux.
  • Some participants express confusion regarding how the induced emf interacts with the coil, with one suggesting it behaves like a battery producing a counter-current, while others clarify that the induced emf is generated within the coil itself.
  • There is a discussion about the direction of current flow in relation to the induced emf, with participants debating whether it flows from positive to negative or vice versa, depending on the context of the induced emf as a voltage source.
  • One participant emphasizes that the current produced by Lenz's Law is always in opposition to the original current, reinforcing the concept of inductance opposing changes in current.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correct interpretation of the polarity of the induced emf and its implications for current direction. There is no consensus on the resolution of these conceptual questions, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential misunderstandings regarding the representation of induced emf in diagrams, the nature of current flow in inductors, and the application of Lenz's Law. The discussion reflects a range of interpretations and assumptions that remain unresolved.

musicianship
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
I have a conceptual question regarding the self-induced emf in a solenoid coil. I have attached a graphic from Serway's Physics for Scientists and Engineers (6th edition) from Chapter 32 (Inductance).

My question is regarding induced emf's (called "Lenz's law emf" in figures (b) and (c)) in the coils; why are they in the shown configuration? It is my understanding that, according to Lenz's Law, the induced emf opposes a change in the magnetic flux of the region surrounded by the coil. By this logic, shouldn't the polarity in (b) be + | - (not - | + as shown) when the current is increasing, thus opposing the change in magnetic flux inside the solenoid and the opposite for (c) where the current is decreasing? Is there a typo, or am I missing something here? Thanks in advanced to anyone who can clarify the polarity of the induced emf for me!
 

Attachments

  • solenoid.jpg
    solenoid.jpg
    29.8 KB · Views: 942
Physics news on Phys.org
i think the book is right as the emf acts like a supplier, in case b opposing the current (see the notion like a battery) so it creates a current going in -------> direction, so -|+ is right and so should case c be right
 
Last edited:
musicianship said:
My question is regarding induced emf's (called "Lenz's law emf" in figures (b) and (c)) in the coils; why are they in the shown configuration? It is my understanding that, according to Lenz's Law, the induced emf opposes a change in the magnetic flux of the region surrounded by the coil. By this logic, shouldn't the polarity in (b) be + | - (not - | + as shown) when the current is increasing, thus opposing the change in magnetic flux inside the solenoid and the opposite for (c) where the current is decreasing? Is there a typo, or am I missing something here? Thanks in advanced to anyone who can clarify the polarity of the induced emf for me!
No, if it were the case for (b) that the induced emf polarity were +|- that would imply that the induced emf is in the same direction as that of the current, when in fact we know that it acts in opposition to the current. The increasing magnetic flux in the diagram which is due to increase in current can be modeled as a bar magnet to the right of the coil with the north pole pointing towards the inductor being pushed to the left. By Lenz law, we would anticipate a induced emf which would generate a magnetic field opposing the bar magnet. In order for it to oppose the N-pole of the magnet, it must itself induce an N at the right of the coil. That corresponds to a an induced emf in -|+.

You can interpret an inductor as a "current resistor" which means to say that for any circuit, the purpose of the inductor would be to keep the current flowing through it at that exact same magnitude and direction.
 
One thing that I still don't undestand is how does the "Lenz's law emf" interact with the coil? It's my understanding that this is a "battery" that is connected to the corresponding ends of the coil and producing a "counter-current" through the coil. And this current is from + to - as I understand it (assuming this is true, that is why I don't understand why the "Lenz's law emf", when "connected" to the coil, produces a reinforcing current in part (b) which would increase the magnetic flux and a deterring current in part (c) thus further reducing the magnetic flux, instead of the opposite in each case where there would be an opposition to the change in flux). Is this the case? Or is this some kind of emf induced through the cylindrical core? I think my main problem at this point is understand how exactly the Lenz's law emf acts in the coil (how does the current produced by the "Lenz's law emf(s)" in each situation, (b) and (c), travel in the coil, assuming that it does even travel in the coil). Furthermore, how do you infer the effect of the "Lenz's law emf(s)" on the changing magnetic field? Thanks again!
 
Last edited:
calculus_jy said:
i think the book is right as the emf acts like a supplier, in case b opposing the current (see the notion like a battery) so it creates a current going in -------> direction, so -|+ is right and so should case c be right

So does the induced current run from "- to +" or "+ to -" in the coil? It is my understanding that it is the latter (since I was led to believe that current's direction is that of a positive charge carrier), which is why I'm having trouble understanding...
 
musicianship said:
One thing that I still don't undestand is how does the "Lenz's law emf" interact with the coil? It's my understanding that this is a "battery" that is connected to the corresponding ends of the coil and producing a "counter-current" through the coil.
There's your problem: You are misinterpreting the diagram's depiction of EMF. Those dashed batteries represent the coil itself, not an external battery connected to the coil. The induced emf is in the coil--the coil is the "battery". And, like any battery, the induced current would flow out of the + terminal and into the - terminal.

So let's look at diagram (b). The current through the coil (which goes from right to left) creates a magnetic field that points left. Since the current is increasing, the magnetic field is increasing. Per Lenz's law the induced EMF and current must oppose that change, thus must point to the right.

In diagram (c), the current is decreasing, so the induced EMF must point to the left.

Make sense?
 
musicianship said:
One thing that I still don't undestand is how does the "Lenz's law emf" interact with the coil? It's my understanding that this is a "battery" that is connected to the corresponding ends of the coil and producing a "counter-current" through the coil. And this current is from + to - as I understand it
You seem to be confusing the voltage polarity for a voltage source (induced emf) and that of a voltage drain (resistor). In a voltage source, current flows from - to +, while in a voltage drain, it flows from + to -. In this case, an induced emf is a voltage source, so this means that -|+ implies that the "counter-current" is in reality flowing from the left-to-right.

musicianship said:
(assuming this is true, that is why I don't understand why the "Lenz's law emf", when "connected" to the coil, produces a reinforcing current in part (b) which would increase the magnetic flux and a deterring current in part (c) thus further reducing the magnetic flux, instead of the opposite in each case where there would be an opposition to the change in flux). Is this the case?
There isn't any reinforcing current here. The opposite is true. The current flow is opposed by the coil's inductance. That is accomplished by Lenz law.

musicianship said:
Or is this some kind of emf induced through the cylindrical core? I think my main problem at this point is understand how exactly the Lenz's law emf acts in the coil (how does the current produced by the "Lenz's law emf(s)" in each situation, (b) and (c), travel in the coil, assuming that it does even travel in the coil). Furthermore, how do you infer the effect of the "Lenz's law emf(s)" on the changing magnetic field? Thanks again!
To sum it up, the current produced by Lenz law is always in opposition to the original current. That is why the operation of an inductor can be described as that which opposes the change in current, whether the change is increasing or decreasing.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
18K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
6K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
3K