Acidity of substituted benzoic acids

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the acidity of substituted benzoic acids, specifically comparing meta and para methoxy benzoic acids. Participants explore the reasons behind the differences in acidity, focusing on inductive and resonance effects related to the methoxy group at different positions on the benzene ring.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant claims that m-methoxybenzoic acid is a stronger acid than its para counterpart due to the methoxy group's inductive withdrawing effects being more pronounced at the meta position.
  • Another participant suggests that the para isomer has more resonance structures available for its deprotonated form, allowing the negative charge to interact with the methoxy group, which does not occur in the meta isomer.
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about drawing resonance structures and attempts to illustrate the resonance for the meta isomer, seeking feedback on their approach.
  • A later reply corrects an earlier claim, stating that resonance structures should not move the negative charge to the methoxy group but rather indicate that the para isomer has resonance structures that may destabilize the carboxylate, affecting acidity differently than in the meta isomer.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the role of resonance and inductive effects in determining acidity, with some agreeing on the importance of resonance structures for the para isomer while others question the initial interpretations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact contributions of these effects to acidity.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of resonance structures and the specific effects of substituents on acidity, which may depend on the definitions and interpretations of resonance and inductive effects.

CrimpJiggler
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Heres meta methoxy benzoic acid:

and here's para methoxy benzoic acid:
100-09-4.gif

m-methoxybenzoic acid is a stronger acid than its para substituted analogue. I'm a bit confused about why this is. From what I've read, its because at the meta position, only the methoxy groups inductive withdrawing effects apply whereas at the para position, it also acts as a mesomeric (resonance) donator. Why does the methoxy groups resonance effects only work when its at the para position? Why doesn't it act as a resonance donator when its at the meta position?
 
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Draw out the resonance structures for the deprotonated form of both acids. For the para isomer, you will see that you will have more resonance structures because the negative charge can move to the methoxy group. For the meta isomer, however, you cannot draw a resonance structure that moves the negative charge to the methoxy group.
 
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**** my organic chem is a bit rusty, I don't know how to draw this resonance structure. Heres my attempt for the meta isomer:
[PLAIN]http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2921/resonance.png
what am I doing wrong there?
 
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First, I made a mistake in my post. None of the resonance structures should move the negative charge to the methoxy group. Rather, for the para-isomer, there are resonance structures that give a slight negative charge to certain positions of the ring, and this slight negative charge will destabilize the carboxylate.

As for your resonance structures, the first two are ok, but the thrid is wrong as it involves the movement of a proton. Below are some resonance structures for methoxybenzene.

resonance.png


When you draw the resonance structures for the para-isomer you should find a resonance structure that would disfavor dissociation of the proton from the carboxyl group. This resonance structure you would not be able to see with the meta-isomer.
 

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