Why is there a stereotype of Americans being fat compared to Europeans?

[eNtRopY]

Well, in Europe there seems to be this stereotype of Americans being fat. As much as I hate to admit it, the average American does seem to be a bit heavier than the average European. For a while this statistic bothered me because I couldn't figure out what causes it.

It's not the food we Americans eat. I mean, you can't buy anything in an American grocery store that doesn't advertise reduced fat or fat free. If you've ever been to Europe you'll notice that Europeans eat like pigs compared to Americans. I mean, first of all the servings are quite larger, secondly everything in Europe seems to involve fried meat, whole milk, and cheese. Plus, although they won't admit, Europeans like American fast food WAY more than Americans. I've gone to the McDonald's restaurant here in Germany, and I've actually seen pretty girls (I'm talking about girls who look like models) there. I mean Europeans will actually go to McDonald's for fun. The only time an American will go to McDonald's is when he / she wants to fill his / her stomach with fodder and not spend too much money doing so.

Then I thought, maybe it's the amount of exercise. Well, it seems to be the case that Americans drive around in cars more while Europeans take the public transportation system more. I wouldn't say that taking the train is exactly exercise. So, I have since disregarded this factor.

Finally, I realized what causes this phenomena. It's the leisure time. Americans seem to work about twice as much as Europeans. Seriously, at the place where I am here in Germany, nobody works on Saturday or Sunday. And, they only work a maximum of eight hours per day during the week... and really, I shouldn't say eight hours per day because they seem to take an hour lunch break and hour coffee break at some point during the day. So really, from what I've seen, I would say that Europeans only work about 30 hours per week. Can you imagine that?

When Americans get a break from work, they are usually so tired that all they feel like doing is relaxing and watching TV. Whereas Europeans seem to have enough leisure time on their hands for pursuing more active hobbies.

Well, so it goes. I guess in the end, Americans wind up being rich and fat, and Europeans wind up being poor but healthy. You can't have everything.

eNtRopY

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by eNtRoPy
Finally, I realized what causes this phenomena. It's the leisure time. Americans seem to work about twice as much as Europeans. Seriously, at the place where I am here in Germany, nobody works on Saturday or Sunday. And, they only work a maximum of eight hours per day during the week... and really, I shouldn't say eight hours per day because they seem to take an hour lunch break and hour coffee break at some point during the day. So really, from what I've seen, I would say that Europeans only work about 30 hours per week. Can you imagine that?

When Americans get a break from work, they are usually so tired that all they feel like doing is relaxing and watching TV. Whereas Europeans seem to have enough leisure time on their hands for pursuing more active hobbies.

In the view I get from this, I can see that people who would be "working twice as much" should be getting "twice the exercise", hence should be the 'fitter' of the too.

I suspect you thought you had it right, but I suspect that you missed the real reason.

Then again, if it isn't physical work, well, the rest explains itself.

 

[meteor]

I mean Europeans will actually go to McDonald's for fun

I never go to McDonald's since I heard some rumours about the real *ingredients* they use in the burgers...

 

[eNtRopY]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
In the view I get from this, I can see that people who would be "working twice as much" should be getting "twice the exercise", hence should be the 'fitter' of the too.

I suspect you thought you had it right, but I suspect that you missed the real reason.

Then again, if it isn't physical work, well, the rest explains itself.

Who, I ask you, does physical work in America anymore? There is no traditional labor force in America anymore. We are so fiscally advanced compared to most nations that we can't afford to keep any market that has been technologically saturated. It is just far more economical to export all real labor to countries with a weaker economy. Actually, anything that can be done in a very predicted, routine fashion is being exported to other countries. We are even starting to export all of our application programming jobs to countries like India and Malaysia.

How long has it been since a television set has been manufactured in the USA? Thirty years?

Even labor jobs we can't get rid of, like construction work, don't involve nearly as much physical activity that they used because of mechanical automation.

Now for my digression:

Although, no other counties hate to admit it. The strong point of America is that we are streamlined for economic gain. We are simply better at business than any other country. One day, I asked myself why this is. Well, the truth of the matter is that Americans are motivated by money more than any other society. We are taught from a young age that the value of a person is defined by his/her job and his/her ability to produce wealth. Unlike other countries, our education system doesn't require us to learn the languages, religions or histories of other cultures. When I think back on what courses I was required to take during my years of public education, I remember taking classes with an emphasis in civics, communication, mathematics, computer science, and business. Notice something? All of these types of classes encourage financial prosperity.

eNtRopY

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
In the view I get from this, I can see that people who would be "working twice as much" should be getting "twice the exercise", hence should be the 'fitter' of the too.

I suspect you thought you had it right, but I suspect that you missed the real reason.

Then again, if it isn't physical work, well, the rest explains itself.

Physical exertion at work doesn't carry the same health bebefits of leisure exercise.

 

[Andy]

Europeans only work about 30 hours per week

Really? I can't talk for the rest of europe but in the UK I am sure the average person works over 40 hours a week in my first week of work i worked 45 hours from monday to friday, that's starting at 8:30am and finishing at 5:00pm with half hour lunch break (the extra time is overtime). I am pretty sure that most people in the UK work similar hours to me.

As for americans being fatter, i have seen this statistic many times before and all i could put it down to is the amount of time americans spend watching TV and using the Internet. I am being very general here and i am not trying to say that ALL americans are fat.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Zero
Physical exertion at work doesn't carry the same health bebefits of leisure exercise.

Agreed, but a person 'pounding nails' for a living, gets lots more excersize then a 'paper pusher'.

Originally poste by eNtRopY
(SNIP)[/color] There is no traditional labor force in America anymore.(SNoP)[/color]

Really, no one building housing, no one repairing roads, sewers, city maintenence systems, infrastructure repairs, no new "Buildings building" going on, no new manufacturing sectors what-so-ever, No new (or old) physical laborers working in the United States of America.

Hummmm, personally, I find that just a little difficult to accept, as 'truthfull description', more perhaps as generalized observation of a "trend" perhaps.

 

[eNtRopY]

Originally posted by Andy
Really? I can't talk for the rest of europe but in the UK I am sure the average person works over 40 hours a week in my first week of work i worked 45 hours from monday to friday, that's starting at 8:30am and finishing at 5:00pm with half hour lunch break (the extra time is overtime). I am pretty sure that most people in the UK work similar hours to me.

Yeah, see... in America 8:30am to 5:00pm with a half hour lunch break is called 40 hours per week. I remember my first job when I was in high school. I was paid to take bolts out of large boxes and put them in small boxes so that my employer could jack up the price per unit volume and make a profit the American way -- without actually producing a product. I remember well that during the summer-time I was paid for exactly forty hours per week, and I had to work from 8:00 am to 5:00 pm. I was allowed to leave the premises from 12:00 pm to 1:00 pm for lunch.

Most American professionals and others with careers work at least 50 hours per week. Anyway, in my opinion, the UK is less European than any other country in Europe. So, I don't think your example would illustrate my point as nicely as Germany, Italy, Spain, France or any country in Scandinavia would.

eNtRopY

 

[eNtRopY]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Really, no one building housing, no one repairing roads, sewers, city maintenence systems, infrastructure repairs, no new "Buildings building" going on, no new manufacturing sectors what-so-ever, No new (or old) physical laborers working in the United States of America.

Umm... if you would have bothered to read the rest of my post you would have seen the part where I mentioned construction workers in America.

Seriously, thanks for attention. I really appreciate it.

eNtRopY

 

[Zantra]

I think it's combination of factors. I have to agree on the TV/leisure time spent by american. Also portions of food- I haven't been to a european country, but I do know that by comparison most asian countries have much smalls portions at meals. Couple that with the fact that fish and rice are a huge staple, and are high in carbs and more filling for less calories and that explains why you rarely see asians who are fat, let alone obese. I will say that I've been to numerous german restaurants where the meal will consist of at lest 4-5 courses, and all fatty- chicken, brautwurst, bread- lots of high fatty content fooods. I know french food well, and it is the same, though I can't attest to the portions.

And the work week. I too have heard the rumor of 30 hour work weeks. Also europeans typically get about 6 weeks of vacation time while americans get 2-3. UK may be different. In the US there ARE still a decent amount of labor jobs- contruction, industrial, agricultural. However many of those jobs ARE being either eliminated by technological advances or removal to offshore hiring- it's just not as complete as you would think.

Also the technology jobs are moving offshore. Originally it was the manual labor, repetative jobs that left. Now it's turning to the more advanced jobs due to the higher cost of hiring tech industry jobs locally, when you can pay someone in say, India half what you pay them here for the same quality of work.

Anyhow, I can also say it's a regional as well as national thing. California is the land of the thin. fat people are rare here. But if you go further east people are fat, imo, because of the seasons. In the colder seasons people tend to be less active and stay indoors more. Activities like "football" don't help. It's essentially the couch potato syndrome.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by eNtRopY
Who, I ask you, does physical work in America anymore? There is no traditional labor force in America anymore. We are so fiscally advanced compared to most nations that we can't afford to keep any market that has been technologically saturated. It is just far more economical to export all real labor to countries with a weaker economy. Actually, anything that can be done in a very predicted, routine fashion is being exported to other countries. We are even starting to export all of our application programming jobs to countries like India and Malaysia.

How long has it been since a television set has been manufactured in the USA? Thirty years?
You mean here?[/color]
Even labor jobs we can't get rid of, like construction work, don't involve nearly as much physical activity that they used because of mechanical automation.

Now for my digression:

Although, no other counties hate to admit it. The strong point of America is that we are streamlined for economic gain. We are simply better at business than any other country. One day, I asked myself why this is. Well, the truth of the matter is that Americans are motivated by money more than any other society. We are taught from a young age that the value of a person is defined by his/her job and his/her ability to produce wealth. Unlike other countries, our education system doesn't require us to learn the languages, religions or histories of other cultures. When I think back on what courses I was required to take during my years of public education, I remember taking classes with an emphasis in civics, communication, mathematics, computer science, and business. Notice something? All of these types of classes encourage financial prosperity.

eNtRopY

So you don't think that those people work as hard, or as much, as they used to because of all of the mechanizations?

Have you tried it, recently?[/color]

 

[eNtRopY]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
So you don't think that those people work as hard, or as much, as they used to because of all of the mechanizations?

Have you tried it, recently?[/color]

I don't think that most Americans are construction workers. Therefore, I don't think that they contribute to the statistical of Americans being fat. Although, if you've noticed, many construction workers are fat. There isn't much physical activity involved in operating a crane.

Have I tried it recently? Honestly, I haven't done any construction work since my junior year of undergraduate study. I was 20 years old then, and for few months I helped construct a high energy physics experiment. I laid cement, I put up some structure, I did a little welding... I can't tell you exactly how physical it was because that was seven years ago. I have different metabolism now that I'm older.

eNtRopY

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by eNtRopY
I don't think that most Americans are construction workers. Therefore, I don't think that they contribute to the statistical of Americans being fat. Although, if you've noticed, many construction workers are fat. There isn't much physical activity involved in operating a crane.

Have I tried it recently? Honestly, I haven't done any construction work since my junior year of undergraduate study. I was 20 years old then, and for few months I helped construct a high energy physics experiment. I laid cement, I put up some structure, I did a little welding... I can't tell you exactly how physical it was because that was seven years ago. I have different metabolism now that I'm older.

eNtRopY

Apparently you have never operated a crane.

Metabolism doesn't usually change drastically in anyone lifetime, sooo, you are probably on the same path we all took/take, you have simply slowed down.

As for your (the US's) "labor force" stats, I don't have any either, as for the "Weight" stats, none of those either, sooo...MOOT!

 

[Andy]

Most American professionals and others with careers work at least 50 hours per week. Anyway, in my opinion,the UK is less European than any other country in Europe. So, I don't think your example would illustrate my point as nicely as Germany, Italy, Spain, France or any country in Scandinavia would.

Yea that's what I and most Britains like to hear!

And i am entitled to 3 weeks holiday per year, only 9 days this year but that's because i have started work most of the way through the year.

 

[eNtRopY]

Originally posted by Andy
And i am entitled to 3 weeks holiday per year, only 9 days this year but that's because i have started work most of the way through the year.

Jesus Christ! What are you complaining about? A job of that nature in America would give you NO holiday time, NO health benefits, and you would have to start at minimum wage as well.

eNtRopY

 

[Andy]

I never meant for it to sound like i was complaining but i am only earning just above the minimum wage, the holiday time is cool, but i ahve already taken up all of those 9 days plus 1 more for when i go on holiday to Menorca in september.

And its good to have you back entropy, was getting a bit boring around here.

 

[Monique]

I have to say that in my opinion Americans ARE in general more heavy as Europeans and I have never seen an obese person (in my eyes) in Europe, while I see them everyday in America. I think it is very sad.

As per the portion size, Entropy, I think Germans generally have a large portion size compared to the rest of Europe, where the portion size is really small..

I have been to American restaurants in the US and it is just absolutely AMAZING what size plate and how many pieces of meat I am served.. enough to last me three days (seriously). While if I go to a restaurant in Amsterdam, it is REDICULOUS how little food I am served :)

It is also the spectrum of food that is available.. I had the hardest time shopping for food in the US.. all the sweets are incredibly sweet and the rest is inedible for me (I actually lost a lot of weight being the US).. more healthier things are available in Europe, in my opinion.

And for the issue of exercise.. I don't mean to insult anyone, but it is a funny story: I notice that the leg-hipjoints in American girls are really close together, while in European people I never saw this. My theory is that Americans don't use the bicycle routinely, while European kids/teenagers bicycle a lot (myself 12-16 km a day at least). The saddle of the bike forces the joints to be further apart?

Anyway, there are a lot of factors, my whole family is very thin, except my sister who is quite big an lives of candy.. every pound goes through the mouth.

 

[Monique]

An btw, it is very true that Americans work very hard:

Europe:
Get to work at 8.30
at 10.00 half hour coffee break
at 12.00 whole hour lunch break
at 14.30 half hour coffe break
at 17:00 time to go home!

While in the US people come to work as early as 5 am and go home as late as 1 am, lunch break: half an hour (not even paid!) and no coffee breaks.. it was a big shock to me.. the first thing I asked my first day at work: when are the coffee breaks? I received a weird look :)

 

[Andy]

I have never seen an obese person (in my eyes) in Europe

If i understand this correctly then you are saying that you haven't seen anyone obese in europe? are your eyes in backwards, i have seen obese people all over europe the only difference between europe and the US is that the US has a higher percentage of obese people living in it.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Andy
If i understand this correctly then you are saying that you haven't seen anyone obese in europe? are your eyes in backwards, i have seen obese people all over europe the only difference between europe and the US is that the US has a higher percentage of obese people living in it.

Have to agree with Andy. If you come to the west coast in america, I believe you'll find a very low percentage of overweight people. Saying that a lot of americans are fat is only a generalization. I've seen tons of fat germans. Granted I don't have first hand experience in europe either.

People say americans are lazy, but the average white collar work week does indeed run about 50 hours on average. Americans are workahaulics. It is true that we are driven to suceed, but what about the rest of the world? What the priorities in europe?

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by Andy
If i understand this correctly then you are saying that you haven't seen anyone obese in europe? are your eyes in backwards, i have seen obese people all over europe the only difference between europe and the US is that the US has a higher percentage of obese people living in it.

Let me clarify: an obese person in my eyes is a person who wouldn't fit onto a bicycle. No, I have never ever seen a person of such weight in the Netherlands.. I shouldn't have generalized it to Europe.

So what do you mean by obese? Clearly an overweight person is not obese and it is normal for a person to gain some weight (like beer belly) as life progresses, so that doesn't count. There is a big difference between obesity and overweight.

The saddest thing are young children and teenagers who are so much overweight.. I really don't understand how they get that way.. regarding a gene being involved.. America is a melting pot and it occurs both among African and European Americans, so that is really hard to believe.

 

[LURCH]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
In the view I get from this, I can see that people who would be "working twice as much" should be getting "twice the exercise", hence should be the 'fitter' of the too.

I suspect you thought you had it right, but I suspect that you missed the real reason.

Then again, if it isn't physical work, well, the rest explains itself.

I think your last sentence holds the gist of it. Lots of work hours with no physical activity. The excessive hours are usually because there is a deadline, too much work to get done and not enough time to do it. Even though the body sits at a desk or in front of a computer all day, when you get home after 10-12 hours of that much pressure, you're exhausted and don't feel eneretic enough to do anything but flop down on a couch and read or watch TV.

Another side-effect of lots of pressure and no physical activity is stress. I think there have been studies linking obesity to stress in that the body responds to a perceived crisis by storing fat, haven't there? Either way, stress makes many people munch nervously.

 

[Integral]

There are some "official" defunitions of obese. I believe it is something like anything greated then 20lbs ~ 8kg over the insurance charts. I am 6'3" tall ~190cm according to the charts I should weigh 186lbs, well I weigh 240lbs so clearly I am well over the obese limits.
http://home.comcast.net/~rossgr1/me.JPG I be. Draw your own conclusions about what it means to be obese.

 

[Mattius_]

Have to agree with Andy. If you come to the west coast in america, I believe you'll find a very low percentage of overweight people.

yes i am from omaha, nebraska and when i went to spokane practically every girl my age (teen) was under 125 lbs. mmmm they all looked very nice indeed. In omaha, the proportion seems much different. I believe that because of climate, omaha is 'fatter' than the west coast.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Mattius_
yes i am from omaha, nebraska and when i went to spokane practically every girl my age (teen) was under 125 lbs. mmmm they all looked very nice indeed. In omaha, the proportion seems much different. I believe that because of climate, omaha is 'fatter' than the west coast.

It's true. I grew up in michigan. West coast girls are definitely healthier=)

 

[Sonty]

First of all, you americans have a more distorted vision of us europeans than we have of you. this is mainly because you are not educated to care about any other nation than your own. Most of you have probably seen as many europeans as I have seen black people, that is 2 or 3. We on the other hand are taught a lot of "unuseful" stuff like the history and caracteristics of all cultures. America's history is the shortest one. Hell, my ancestors have lived on this land since forever and I mean well before Christ.
Let's get to reasons.
1. Talking to other romanians living abroad, the ones in America are the worst criticists of the food. I quote one of them: "these tomatoes taste like rubber". By comparison one guy in Germany said you can find such tomatoes in Germany too, but you can also find ones that taste almost as natural as those your grandparents used to give you from their garden as a child. They are more expensive but they EXIST.
2. If you think europeans die poor you are sadly mistaking (unfortunately it's true in my country). A friend told me the welthiest people in France are old retired people with a couple of tens of thousands of euro in the bank and a pension (state or private) which is more than enough for them to live a good life. Students are poor all over the world.
3. We eat when we're hungry and not when it's time and we don't chew on crackers and chips all day long
4. Integral, if that's you in the picture, you should work a litlle on you upper body, but you'll live. The simple rule I know is you weigh as many kg as you have cm over 1m, meaning you are 15 or so kg heavier than you should. I on the other hand am the opposite. I'm about 20 kg below my height.
In conlusion my best guess is that your food is treated (there are a lot of stories about growth hormons) and you only go jogging thinking that will do. Try short sprints, try climbing trees, try something out of the ordinary to get the adrenaline flowing and your heart pumping (in a pleasant way).

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Sonty
First of all, you americans have a more distorted vision of us europeans than we have of you. this is mainly because you are not educated to care about any other nation than your own. Most of you have probably seen as many europeans as I have seen black people, that is 2 or 3. We on the other hand are taught a lot of "unuseful" stuff like the history and caracteristics of all cultures. America's history is the shortest one. Hell, my ancestors have lived on this land since forever and I mean well before Christ.
Let's get to reasons.
1. Talking to other romanians living abroad, the ones in America are the worst criticists of the food. I quote one of them: "these tomatoes taste like rubber". By comparison one guy in Germany said you can find such tomatoes in Germany too, but you can also find ones that taste almost as natural as those your grandparents used to give you from their garden as a child. They are more expensive but they EXIST.
2. If you think europeans die poor you are sadly mistaking (unfortunately it's true in my country). A friend told me the welthiest people in France are old retired people with a couple of tens of thousands of euro in the bank and a pension (state or private) which is more than enough for them to live a good life. Students are poor all over the world.
3. We eat when we're hungry and not when it's time and we don't chew on crackers and chips all day long
4. Integral, if that's you in the picture, you should work a litlle on you upper body, but you'll live. The simple rule I know is you weigh as many kg as you have cm over 1m, meaning you are 15 or so kg heavier than you should. I on the other hand am the opposite. I'm about 20 kg below my height.
In conlusion my best guess is that your food is treated (there are a lot of stories about growth hormons) and you only go jogging thinking that will do. Try short sprints, try climbing trees, try something out of the ordinary to get the adrenaline flowing and your heart pumping (in a pleasant way).

See this is the typical distorted european view of americans. They hold their heads high in disdain at the americans. You're absolutely generalizing, which of course is a byproduct of prejudice, so no offense taken.

If I were easily swayed by rumors and innuendos and other falsehoods, I might be inclined to believe that all romanians are sheepherders who wouldn't know technology if it came up and zapped them. Luckily, I'm a bit more enlightened. It's completely untrue that americans are not taught about other cultures. I had quite a few world history and civics classes. Furthermore I'm about as familiar with the french culture as one can get without actually going there. It was integrated into my language studies. And I've seen many many europeans FYI. Not only here in the US, but abroad as well.

I might add that not every single American has bad eating habits, as no doubt not every single european is fit. And I define overweight by your same standards- meaning over the BMI- or 20+ pounds over ideal weight. I usually work around 50 hours and week, and I STILL find time to excerise. And I don't mean jogging. I mean a REAL workout. Also Europeans tend to smoke more than americans. Especially in England. Americans as a whole, are moving away from that.

As for Europeans dying poor, I never said that. I did however say that Americans tend to make more money, accounting for economies of scale. Ands actually at this point both the UK pound and the euro are more valuable than the dollar. But of course things cost more here. Over there a BMW can be had for a few thousand american dollars. Here it is more than the average american makes in a year. And for us to retire on 10 or 20 thousand american dollars would be absolutely impossible. Our society prevents it. Even living as frugally as possible in a very poor area, 20k USD would not last even a year. It would not be acceptable to anyone. We work our butts off because if we DON'T then we end up POOR and dependant upon the state, which is not a favorable thing when you are elderly, and need to depend on someone else to take care of you. In most cases people don't retire weathly, but are lucky if we can retire to a modest income and not have to depend on the government to support us. It's a well known fact here, which it sounds like you're unfamiliar with, that a very large percentage is of the american wealth is owned by a very lower percentage of americans- say 30 percent of american wealth being owned by the top 5 percent of wealthy americans. The rest of us just scrape out a living.

All I see you doing here is spreading a lot of rumors that either some basis in fact, little basis in fact, or absolutely no basis in fact. So I have to ask. How many americans do you actually know? And I mean personally, one and one, not on the internet. I've never been to Romania, but I can tell you I have actually met and gotten to know some Romanians, and hungarians, and french, and german, and spaniards. How many cultures have you interacted with? Europeans are quick to despise americans, but when it suits their needs they suddenly befriend us. Everyone is quick to judge america, but no one ever remembers the upside. The help we offer, the assistance we provide. In world distasters, we are always among the first to offer a lending hand, or our services, or our aid. So when romania has an earthquake, or a war, or some other distaster, who will come to your aid? The grossly overweight, greedy, selfish, self-centered americans who don't care about anyone else in the world..Or maybe not next time?

In MY conclusions, europeans certainly have a skewed picture of americans(if indeed you are representative of the collective opinion). And it's based soley on the bitterness that Sonty is so obviously representing here. And hey, we may be overweight, but at least we're friendly! UNLIKE YOU.(And by "you" I mean Sonty



How's THAT for international relations?

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Originally posted by Zantra
You're absolutely generalizing, which of course is a byproduct of prejudice, so no offense taken.

so is almost everybody in this americans are ... / oh, no europeans are ... threads.

It's completely untrue that americans are not taught about other cultures. I had quite a few world history and civics classes. Furthermore I'm about as familiar with the french culture as one can get without actually going there...

Europeans are quick to despise americans, but when it suits their needs they suddenly befriend us. Everyone is quick to judge america, but no one ever remembers the upside.

see what I mean...

PS: why can't we just get along?

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Guybrush Threepwood
so is almost everybody in this americans are ... / oh, no europeans are ... threads.



see what I mean...

PS: why can't we just get along?

Apologies to all for my outburst. I have no preconcieved notions when it comes to other cultures.I rely on facts, not innuendos, but when someone else judges me on a rumor, it annoys me.

Disclaimer: What I've said doesn't necessarily apply to all europeans, but I'm directing it at Sonty who obviously needs to learn a bit more about Americans.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

but at least we are talking eh?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Sonty
First of all, you americans have a more distorted vision of us europeans than we have of you. this is mainly because you are not educated to care about any other nation than your own. Most of you have probably seen as many europeans as I have seen black people, that is 2 or 3. We on the other hand are taught a lot of "unuseful" stuff like the history and caracteristics of all cultures. America's history is the shortest one. Hell, my ancestors have lived on this land since forever and I mean well before Christ.

I think that many Americans do have tunnel vision in international affairs. I feel this happens in large part due to the geography involved. Unlike European nations, we are very removed from the world by two very large oceans. This is surely changing [not the oceans but the isolation].

Also, we really do get a lot of resentment from other cultures that I think is often not understood.

 

[Sonty]

Gosh, I'm making a habbit of being misunderstood when I first enter forums!

Listen, when you'll find me saying the stuff you're putting in my mouth in the last part of your message send someone to shoot me. It probably means I'm suffering and I have no way back to life. I mean it.

First of all a litlle translation: "you americans"="America has the highest percentage of" or "everybody seems to".

eNtRopY said he took mainly "financial" courses. I remembered the bunch of polls the romanian community or the press did among europeans and americans, which showed very few of them knew what you, Zantra, seem to know about us. Then I wrote the part about being educated to care about others.

What do you consider worse: working 50 h/week for 30 years to have the many to live for another 10-15 or working those 30 or 40 hours and depending on the government for a little under the medium wage in those last years?

You would be inclined to think we are all sheepherders? From a metaphorical point of view you might be right... You know why I'm not representative of the collective opinion? I don't expect or want anything from America. I'm not expecting pity, nor free rides, NOTHING. It's not that I hate America or because I'm too proud to take help, but because I like to do everything that I can with my own forces. The vast majority thinks of you as a big sack of money waiting to be picked up. That's kinda state policy. Our government seeks investors to invest in all sorts of bad deals for the guys responsible with the corruption to make a living. There are very few, but they deserve the highest honours, that try make a break for themselves here. Maybe I'll have to try that myself sometime...
You know why you're not representative? Because you're one of the few who work their asses, and you too deserve the same honours, to make a break in your country. think of the kids you grew up with. Where are they now respective to you?

You think I'm bitter and unfriendly? I'm not an enemy. I don't confuse the government policy with what the american people thinks like some arabs do (on the old version of physicsforums I remembered I got into such a debate also with people from that part of the world). I know because here everybody says all politicians are stupid and corrupt, but they still vote for them. Seems familiar? We don't rule our own country the same as you don't.

I haven't met a lot of foreigners in my lifetime. You want to know why? It's because I'm 20 and because I can't travel a lot. Imagine living with 150-200 dolars a month like me and my mother do (providing we own our apartment).

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Sonty
Gosh, I'm making a habbit of being misunderstood when I first enter forums!

Listen, when you'll find me saying the stuff you're putting in my mouth in the last part of your message send someone to shoot me. It probably means I'm suffering and I have no way back to life. I mean it.

First of all a litlle translation: "you americans"="America has the highest percentage of" or "everybody seems to".

I'm gathering from this that you're saying that americans are generalizing? Not sure because it doesn't make sense to me. Rephrase please.

eNtRopY said he took mainly "financial" courses. I remembered the bunch of polls the romanian community or the press did among europeans and americans, which showed very few of them knew what you, Zantra, seem to know about us. Then I wrote the part about being educated to care about others.

Ok so your main exposure to americans is through the media. And we ALL know the medias ALWAYS truthful and unbaised;)

What do you consider worse: working 50 h/week for 30 years to have the many to live for another 10-15 or working those 30 or 40 hours and depending on the government for a little under the medium wage in those last years?

I'm a self-sufficient person, so I'd rather not have to depend on the government. Plus, in america we don't have that option. Government support is not much above minimum wage. Not how I want to spend my retirement years.

You would be inclined to think we are all sheepherders? From a metaphorical point of view you might be right... You know why I'm not representative of the collective opinion? I don't expect or want anything from America. I'm not expecting pity, nor free rides, NOTHING. It's not that I hate America or because I'm too proud to take help, but because I like to do everything that I can with my own forces. The vast majority thinks of you as a big sack of money waiting to be picked up. That's kinda state policy. Our government seeks investors to invest in all sorts of bad deals for the guys responsible with the corruption to make a living. There are very few, but they deserve the highest honours, that try make a break for themselves here. Maybe I'll have to try that myself sometime...
You know why you're not representative? Because you're one of the few who work their asses, and you too deserve the same honours, to make a break in your country. think of the kids you grew up with. Where are they now respective to you?

America isn't a big sack of money waiting to be picked up. It's called opportunity. It is there, but only if you're willing to work for it. That doesn't mean Uncle Sam is standing there at the statue of liberty on Ellis island handing out stacks of bills as you come into America. It means that if you're willing to work hard, you will be rewarded for your hard work. I can't vouch or my peers, only myself. You get out of life exactly what you put into it. And that's a universal truth, not an American one.

You think I'm bitter and unfriendly? I'm not an enemy. I don't confuse the government policy with what the american people thinks like some arabs do (on the old version of physicsforums I remembered I got into such a debate also with people from that part of the world). I know because here everybody says all politicians are stupid and corrupt, but they still vote for them. Seems familiar? We don't rule our own country the same as you don't.

I think a lot of Europeans do tend to be swayed by their governments opinions. As soon as you walk up to them and they hear an american accent, you can watch the expressions on their faces change in an instant. I never said you were an enemy, but when you come onto these boards say americans are all fat, selfish, and self-centered I feel compelled to correct you.

I haven't met a lot of foreigners in my lifetime. You want to know why? It's because I'm 20 and because I can't travel a lot. Imagine living with 150-200 dolars a month like me and my mother do (providing we own our apartment).

Bottom line is that you can't generalize americans any more than I can generalize erupoeans. Everyone is unique and different. I don't have a sack of money under my bed, and you probably don't have sheep running through your house. I work my butt off because the cost of everything keeps going up. That's how our economy is driven, and how our productivity keeps increasing. But like anything, there is a price to pay. If I could work 30-40 hours a week, believe me I would. I'd much rather not be working, but like many americans, my options ARE limited. So we just do the best we can, as I'm sure you do.

 

[Andy]

One thing Zantra, a BMW in England can cost anywhere from £30,000 upwards, is a lot of money not many people earn 30k in a year. In continental europe the prices are a lot cheaper don't think its as cheap as you think but it is a lot cheaper.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Andy
One thing Zantra, a BMW in England can cost anywhere from £30,000 upwards, is a lot of money not many people earn 30k in a year. In continental europe the prices are a lot cheaper don't think its as cheap as you think but it is a lot cheaper.

Ya I was exaggerating. It's just naturally cheaper for them because it's a domestic car. I think you could probably get a new BMW for 20k USD which would normally be 40K. THough in all fairness not many people here can afford a BMW either. Prices start at 40K USD and go up(I believe that's about 25,000 pounds?) The statistics I believe I saw where that only 30 percernt of americans earn more than 30,000 USD per year.

 

[Sonty]

Originally posted by Zantra
I'm gathering from this that you're saying that americans are generalizing? Not sure because it doesn't make sense to me. Rephrase please.

I'm mean I never said or thought this (and I hope I never will):

Europeans are quick to despise americans, but when it suits their needs they suddenly befriend us. Everyone is quick to judge america, but no one ever remembers the upside. The help we offer, the assistance we provide. In world distasters, we are always among the first to offer a lending hand, or our services, or our aid. So when romania has an earthquake, or a war, or some other distaster, who will come to your aid? The grossly overweight, greedy, selfish, self-centered americans who don't care about anyone else in the world..

America isn't a big sack of money waiting to be picked up. It's called opportunity. It is there, but only if you're willing to work for it. That doesn't mean Uncle Sam is standing there at the statue of liberty on Ellis island handing out stacks of bills as you come into America. It means that if you're willing to work hard, you will be rewarded for your hard work. I can't vouch or my peers, only myself. You get out of life exactly what you put into it. And that's a universal truth, not an American one.

Gee, let me think... Yes it is. When you don't know what WORK means you see America and every other westerner as a big sack of money, a big cow waiting to be milked. There was a saying before 1989 in Romania: "We fake working, they fake paying us". It's because of this nobody wants to hire people over 40-45. They are educated in that spirit. If you have a business where you can hire only young people you have a chance to survive on the market. The whole industrial environment is populated with old people. Nobody seems to want to buy those industrial giants that technologically wouldn't require astonishing investments, but educating the people would bring bankruptcy.
I bet you didn't know this.

I think a lot of Europeans do tend to be swayed by their governments opinions. As soon as you walk up to them and they hear an american accent, you can watch the expressions on their faces change in an instant. I never said you were an enemy, but when you come onto these boards say americans are all fat, selfish, and self-centered I feel compelled to correct you.

I'll tell you another saying from these parts: "When two folks say you're drunk go to sleep".
I'm not the only one that says a lot of americans have a problem with food. I'm not the only one to say you have a tendency to be shortsighted. You have a good excuse in what Ivan said earlier. Geographically you are pretty far away and tend to limit your interests between those two oceans. Probably it's not intentional. I probably would do the same if I were born there.
On the other hand I think I can detect some envy in our international politics today. That's where all the roumors start from.

Bottom line is that you can't generalize americans any more than I can generalize erupoeans. Everyone is unique and different. I don't have a sack of money under my bed, and you probably don't have sheep running through your house. I work my butt off because the cost of everything keeps going up. That's how our economy is driven, and how our productivity keeps increasing. But like anything, there is a price to pay. If I could work 30-40 hours a week, believe me I would. I'd much rather not be working, but like many americans, my options ARE limited. So we just do the best we can, as I'm sure you do.

You earn in a month more than a romanian earns in a year. You do have a sack of money under your bed.
I'm self sufficent too. I probably will take the hard (and exciting "no safety line") way and work my ass to manage my own life and be as independent as posiible. Me and you are not that different, we just live in the same Universe and don't know it.

 

[Monique]

Originally posted by Integral:

There are some "official" defunitions of obese. I believe it is something like anything greated then 20lbs ~ 8kg over the insurance charts. I am 6'3" tall ~190cm according to the charts I should weigh 186lbs, well I weigh 240lbs so clearly I am well over the obese limits.

Intregral, may I say that you are most definitely not obese? Again, overweight doesn't count as obesity. You seem to be a very hard worker and have a lot of muscles (which are heavier than fat), I don't think your body type is that abnormal.

The following are examples of obesity:

http://www.spinaweb.ie/showcase/1017/images/obese2.gif
http://www.the-scientist.com/yr1998/jan/jan_art/obese.jpg

 

[kat]

Integral, Monique-
I think the CDC(center for disease control) defines overweight as BMI 25.0–29.9 and Obese as BMI greater than or equal to 30.0.
At any rate, being overweight is quickly becoming a global issue, and although the U.S. still tops the charts Europe, Germany and the U.K. inparticular are catching up fast!

Sonty-Are you aware that for most families in the U.S. 100 to 150 dollars a month would not even cover their property taxes for that apartment, IF they were to own it? and if they were not the owners..the rent would so far exceed that 100-150 dollar amt that they would definitely be homeless if that is all they had to depend upon?

 

[kat]

Just as a friendly service...
The CDC Body Mass Calculator

 

[Monique]

I plugged the numbers into the calculator, I am underweight and Integral's information is bordercase overweight/obese.. but the calculator doesn't take into account the muscle/fat distribution so I hold my point :)

And Sonty/Kat, money means totally different things in different countries, so comparison is very difficult. I myself have lived in a one-bedroom apartment in the US and the rent of the unit was $703 per month..

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Sonty

Gee, let me think... Yes it is. When you don't know what WORK means you see America and every other westerner as a big sack of money, a big cow waiting to be milked. There was a saying before 1989 in Romania: "We fake working, they fake paying us". It's because of this nobody wants to hire people over 40-45. They are educated in that spirit. If you have a business where you can hire only young people you have a chance to survive on the market. The whole industrial environment is populated with old people. Nobody seems to want to buy those industrial giants that technologically wouldn't require astonishing investments, but educating the people would bring bankruptcy. I bet you didn't know this.

Nope, you're right I didn't.

I'll tell you another saying from these parts: "When two folks say you're drunk go to sleep".
I'm not the only one that says a lot of americans have a problem with food. I'm not the only one to say you have a tendency to be shortsighted. You have a good excuse in what Ivan said earlier. Geographically you are pretty far away and tend to limit your interests between those two oceans. Probably it's not intentional. I probably would do the same if I were born there.
On the other hand I think I can detect some envy in our international politics today. That's where all the roumors start from.

I too, detect some international envy. When you comment that the US has no interest in you, what are you referring to? Business? I don't own a business I work for someone else, so I can't say. Tourism? Well Romania isn't much in the way of tourism, but If I were in Europe, I'm sure there are some castles I would like to see.

You earn in a month more than a romanian earns in a year. You do have a sack of money under your bed.
I'm self sufficent too. I probably will take the hard (and exciting "no safety line") way and work my ass to manage my own life and be as independent as posiible. Me and you are not that different, we just live in the same Universe and don't know it. [/B]

You also have to account for economies of scale, which is something I think you're not realizing. While I may earn more in a month than someone there does in a year, I also pay more for goods and services as a result. It's not as if I earn this money then everything here is price the same as in romania. How much is a gallon (2.5 liters?) of milk there? I bet it's 1/25th of what it costs here. Goods are price according to what the country's economy can sustain. I probably pay enough money on housing in one month, that a romanian could live off it for a year. When I finish paying off my bills, believe me I'm not hoarding a sack of money. More like a sack of rolled coins

Yes sonty, fat or no, sheep or no, perhaps we are all more alike then we realize

 

[Sonty]

Originally posted by Zantra
I too, detect some international envy. When you comment that the US has no interest in you, what are you referring to? Business? I don't own a business I work for someone else, so I can't say. Tourism? Well Romania isn't much in the way of tourism, but If I were in Europe, I'm sure there are some castles I would like to see.

No. I don't care much about business. I'm more interested in the human side of this. The ordinary american is only now beginning to find out where my country is located. He doesn't know what kind of language I speak, what kind of food I eat, etc, etc, and he thinks I'm still in the 13th century and he has nothing to learn from me. We're all humans living on a small planet. We should know each other. As a first thing we should learn how to work from you and you should learn adaptability from us.
Castles? Forget the castles man. Come see the mountains and the sea. there are astonishing things to see where there aren't many people involved. It's not New Zealand, but in some places it comes close. plus there's (rare) stuff here that dates back to when the egyptians were buiding pyramids...

You also have to account for economies of scale, which is something I think you're not realizing. While I may earn more in a month than someone there does in a year, I also pay more for goods and services as a result. It's not as if I earn this money then everything here is price the same as in romania. How much is a gallon (2.5 liters?) of milk there? I bet it's 1/25th of what it costs here. Goods are price according to what the country's economy can sustain. I probably pay enough money on housing in one month, that a romanian could live off it for a year. When I finish paying off my bills, believe me I'm not hoarding a sack of money. More like a sack of rolled coins

The "red" generation kind of educated itself to judge a man by his incomes, not by his economic balance. I believe you because I know that stuff. 2,5 liters of (I suspect a little watered down) milk costs about 1$. My "provider" is an old lady who lives in the country a few km from my city, owns two cows and twice a week she comes by bus into the city to sell milk. Your provider is probably the local super-market therefore the difference in price. How much is a gallon of milk if you would buy if from a cow owning farmer?

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Sonty
No. I don't care much about business. I'm more interested in the human side of this. The ordinary american is only now beginning to find out where my country is located. He doesn't know what kind of language I speak, what kind of food I eat, etc, etc, and he thinks I'm still in the 13th century and he has nothing to learn from me.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for quite a few...many of us became painfully aware of much about Romania when we began veiwing the horrid conditions of your orphans and raising funds and putting a large amount of time and energy into helping them.
Maybe it's just the way I'm reading what your saying but it seems alittle self centered and childish to be upset that Americans, who have plenty of their own to worry about aren't informed enough about your particular lifestyle. Particularly since in reading what you are saying about US, you're not particularly well informed about Americans either.

The "red" generation kind of educated itself to judge a man by his incomes, not by his economic balance. I believe you because I know that stuff. 2,5 liters of (I suspect a little watered down) milk costs about 1$. My "provider" is an old lady who lives in the country a few km from my city, owns two cows and twice a week she comes by bus into the city to sell milk. Your provider is probably the local super-market therefore the difference in price. How much is a gallon of milk if you would buy if from a cow owning farmer?

Living somewhat out in the country as I do, I am fortunate to be able to purchase milk from the farm...interesting enough it is not cheaper then buying from the super market (which purchases milk from the large milk companies). In fact, I pay almost a dollar more per gallon then I would at the grocery store. BUT the milk at the grocery store is definitely thin and watery compared to the farmers milk. (not to mention not a drop of cream on the top! ) I am paying 3.79 per gallon (3.7 liters) BTW.

 

[Sonty]

Originally posted by kat
I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for quite a few...many of us became painfully aware of much about Romania when we began veiwing the horrid conditions of your orphans and raising funds and putting a large amount of time and energy into helping them.
Maybe it's just the way I'm reading what your saying but it seems alittle self centered and childish to be upset that Americans, who have plenty of their own to worry about aren't informed enough about your particular lifestyle. Particularly since in reading what you are saying about US, you're not particularly well informed about Americans either.
[/B]

See? This is what I'm talking about when I say your view of us is more distorted than ours is of you. You characterize us by more irrelevant things than we do. What do you think would be more easily to spot: a relatively fat american for an european or a homeless orphan child in Romania for an american here? Foreigners come to us expecting to find third world people. Imagine their surprise when they find normal (like them) people. I see the same beggars everyday. They are indeed children and sometimes (rarely) see their parents. The parents are the ones that make them beg, they collect the money and they're actually leaving a good life (from their point of view). Almost all of them are gypsies. I'm not going to get into a long and boring discussion about gypsies here, but I can tell you bringing this entire community to legal work would be definitely harder than giving the entire Harlem a college education.

 

[plus]

Originally posted by Monique
I plugged the numbers into the calculator, I am underweight and Integral's information is bordercase overweight/obese.. but the calculator doesn't take into account the muscle/fat distribution so I hold my point :)

The body mass index ceases to have too much relevance once you start getting above 6ft or below 5ft. The simple rules of squaring(etc) are only an approximation to a curve.

 

[Tail]

I'm butting in without having read all the pages, so forgive me if I post anything somebody else already posted...

I'm just shocked at entropy's "conclusion" that Americans are fatter because they have to work more. I don't know where you were when you were in Europe, but I seriously doubt Europeans work less.

You might be interested in this fascinating article on obesity in America by BBC, though...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/115270.stm

Apart other things, here's what it says (but do read the whole thing!):

Karen Donato, who helps co-ordinate obesity education at the NHLBI, said people were eating more, exercising less, and being fooled by "low fat" foods.

"When people read labels, they're more likely to notice what's low fat and 'healthy' but may not be looking at calories," she said.

In addition to the extra calories being taken in, Ms. Donato said, culprits in the national weight gain include "too much time sitting at our computers, driving the car, watching television and taking the elevator instead of the stairs."




By the way, I think the world would be a better place without Americans "helping" everybody, like "freeing" the people of Iraq. If they have so much money to use for war, help and whatever, perhaps they should first consider doing something to help stop the global warning, which would actually include some discomfort. But Americans will only resort to that when hell freezes over... or the Earth is so ****ed up it's not fit for living anymore...

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Tail
I'm butting in without having read all the pages, so forgive me if I post anything somebody else already posted...

I'm just shocked at entropy's "conclusion" that Americans are fatter because they have to work more. I don't know where you were when you were in Europe, but I seriously doubt Europeans work less.

Using the most recently available data, the ILO has determined that the average Australian, Canadian, Japanese or Mexican worker was on the job roughly 100 hours less than the average American in a year -- that's almost two-and-a-half weeks less. Brazilians and British employees worked some 250 hours, or more than five weeks, less than Americans. Germans worked roughly 500 hours, or 12-and-a-half weeks, less than careerists in the States

Study: U.S. employees put in most hours

You might be interested in this fascinating article on obesity in America by BBC, though...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/115270.stm

Apart other things, here's what it says (but do read the whole thing!):

Karen Donato, who helps co-ordinate obesity education at the NHLBI, said people were eating more, exercising less, and being fooled by "low fat" foods.

"When people read labels, they're more likely to notice what's low fat and 'healthy' but may not be looking at calories," she said.

In addition to the extra calories being taken in, Ms. Donato said, culprits in the national weight gain include "too much time sitting at our computers, driving the car, watching television and taking the elevator instead of the stairs."

Yes, I've always considered this to be one of the greatest (in a crooked sort of way) marketing ploys ever! Although, the "diet" soft drink ploy with ingredients that make you dehydrate and increase your weight gain might be slightly more brilliant...in that same crooked sort of way...

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Sonty
See? This is what I'm talking about when I say your view of us is more distorted than ours is of you. You characterize us by more irrelevant things than we do. What do you think would be more easily to spot: a relatively fat american for an european or a homeless orphan child in Romania for an american here? Foreigners come to us expecting to find third world people. Imagine their surprise when they find normal (like them) people. I see the same beggars everyday. They are indeed children and sometimes (rarely) see their parents. The parents are the ones that make them beg, they collect the money and they're actually leaving a good life (from their point of view). Almost all of them are gypsies. I'm not going to get into a long and boring discussion about gypsies here, but I can tell you bringing this entire community to legal work would be definitely harder than giving the entire Harlem a college education.

So in YOUR opinion, someone's weight is more relevant than weather or not they are homeless? I guess you do have different priorities over there. No one's ever to my knowledge, referred to Romania as a 3rd world country. I've been to a 3rd world country, and I do know the difference.

Now let's for a second "get real" as we say..Ok the last 4 pages have basically been about trying to insult americans about their weight as a whole. I don't think it's in debate that americans are overweight. I also don't think it's in debate that we are NOT lazy, and that we are very productive. So you basically are equating weight with laziness, even though it's not accurate, and kind of "tacking that on", once you've started rolling.

Do Europeans obsesss this much about American's health? I mean honestly. Saying "you're fat so hah!" is about what I'd expect in grade school.

Other than the fact that we're overweight, does anyone have any VALID issues or generalizations about Americans?

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Originally posted by Zantra
Saying "you're fat so hah!" is about what I'd expect in grade school.

just to make sure everybody sees that

 

[Sonty]

Originally posted by Zantra
So in YOUR opinion, someone's weight is more relevant than weather or not they are homeless? I guess you do have different priorities over there. No one's ever to my knowledge, referred to Romania as a 3rd world country. I've been to a 3rd world country, and I do know the difference.

Do I speak a different english?
I meant you are sure to see a lot more overweight (ok fat is politically correct) people in America than you are two see orphan children in Romania.

Other than the fact that we're overweight, does anyone have any VALID issues or generalizations about Americans?

Let's stick to this one.The two of us already seem to have ruined the thread.