Ampere's law in differential form

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on understanding Ampere's law in its differential form, particularly the mathematical expressions and vector orientations involved. Participants explore the implications of partial derivatives and the orientation of magnetic field vectors in the context of line integrals.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses difficulty in understanding the necessity of a partial derivative in the context of Ampere's law.
  • Another participant explains the definition of the partial derivative of the magnetic field component and its relation to infinitesimal changes in position.
  • Concerns are raised about the orientation of magnetic vectors and how they relate to the segments of the path integral.
  • Some participants clarify that the negative sign in the dot product arises from the orientation of the differential length vector relative to the magnetic field vectors.
  • There is a discussion about the decomposition of magnetic vectors and how they contribute to the integral, with references to specific segments of the path.
  • A later reply questions how the negative sign appears in front of the partial derivative, leading to further clarification about the relationship between the vectors involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the mathematical framework and the significance of vector orientations, but there remains some uncertainty regarding the specific implications of the negative signs in the equations and the interpretation of the vectors' orientations.

Contextual Notes

Participants express various assumptions about the orientation of vectors and the definitions of terms, which may not be universally agreed upon. The discussion includes unresolved mathematical steps related to the application of Ampere's law.

DottZakapa
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Screen Shot 2019-09-24 at 10.03.28.png
According to this image, in the attached files there is the demonstration of the ampere's law in differential form. Bur i have some difficulties in understanding some passages. Probably I'm not understanding how to consider those two magnetic vectors oriented and why have different name.

in particular:

the following, i don't get why do i need such partial derivative
Screen Shot 2019-09-24 at 10.03.55.png

following, i don't understand why that minus in front of the partial derivative

Screen Shot 2019-09-24 at 10.04.24.png


Is there anyone so kindly patient to help?
thanks
 

Attachments

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By the scheme, we can see that ##B_y## is the y-component of magnetic field at location ##x+dx## (along the segment QR), and ##B'_y## is the y-component of magnetic field at location ## x## (along the segement PS) (I consider the point ##P## has coordinates ##(x,y)##). The definition of the partial derivative of ##B_y## with respect to ##x## is (for infinitesimal ##dx##)
$$\frac{\partial B_y}{\partial x}=\frac{B_y(x+dx)-B_y(x)}{dx}=\frac{B_y-B'_y}{dx}$$
from which it follows that $$B_y-B'_y=\frac{\partial B_y}{\partial x}dx$$.

The minus sign is there because we do the convention to consider the positive direction of walking through the loop, the counter clockwise direction. So we take as positive the ##B_x(y)dx ## and negative the ##B_x(y+dy)dx##, so the contribution will be ##(B_x(y)-B_x(y+dy))dx## and by similar reasoning as that in the previous paragraph (with the roles of x and y swapped) we can see that ##(B_x(y)-B_x(y+dy))=-\frac{\partial B_x}{\partial y} dy##
 
Last edited:
new vec.png


Is this the decomposition of the two vectors B' and B that i have to consider?
If not, my main problem is that I'm not understanding how the two vectors ore oriented in the lines. I understand what is the positive circulation of the integral, the main thing is that i am not seeing where on each segment the vector component is pointing.
 
Yes that is the decomposition of the two vectors. What's the problem with it?

We don't have to know if they point left or right or up or down. The reason that they become negative when we take the dot product ##\vec{B}\cdot d\vec{l}## is that the vector ##d\vec{l}## (which always points counterclockwise) becomes negative with respect to the positive unit vector ##u_x## or ##u_y##. So for example at the segment PQ it is ##d\vec{l}=dx\vec{u_x}## while at the segment RS it is ##d\vec{l}=-dx\vec{u_x}##
 
Delta2 said:
Yes that is the decomposition of the two vectors. What's the problem with it?

We don't have to know if they point left or right or up or down. The reason that they become negative when we take the dot product ##\vec{B}\cdot d\vec{l}## is that the vector ##d\vec{l}## (which always points counterclockwise) becomes negative with respect to the positive unit vector ##u_x## or ##u_y##. So for example at the segment PQ it is ##d\vec{l}=dx\vec{u_x}## while at the segment RS it is ##d\vec{l}=-dx\vec{u_x}##
i agree with that so as you say it is
## \int_p^q B_x\,dx= Bdx##

##\int_r^s B_x'\,dx=\space -B'dx ##

therefore
##(B_x-B_x')dx##

then

## B_x-B'_x=dB_x##

##dB_x=##
how the minus comes up in front of the partial?
 
it is actually ##B_x-B'_x=-dB_x## because ##B'_x=B_x(y+dy)## and ##B_x=B_x(y)##.
 

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