Ampere's law: what if we have a magnetic field but no current

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of Ampere's law in the context of magnetic fields generated by magnetic dipoles, particularly focusing on the existence of currents in scenarios where no conventional current is present. Participants explore concepts such as displacement current and bound currents, as well as the relationship between magnetic fields and current distributions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether a magnetic field describing a closed path implies the presence of a current, and if a displacement current exists around a magnetic dipole.
  • Another participant asserts that the current surrounding a magnetic dipole is not a displacement current but rather a bound current.
  • A participant notes that a single loop of current can be considered a magnetic dipole and discusses the concept of bound magnetic surface currents in solid cylindrical magnets.
  • There is a query regarding the mathematical expression for displacement current and its relation to changing electric fields.
  • A participant references Griffiths' textbook, discussing the derivation of vector potential from bound currents and the equivalence to bulk currents and surface currents in magnetic materials.
  • One participant clarifies that the expression mentioned relates specifically to displacement current in capacitors and electromagnetic waves.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of currents associated with magnetic dipoles, with some supporting the idea of bound currents while others explore the concept of displacement currents. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact nature of these currents in the context presented.

Contextual Notes

There are references to specific models and derivations that may depend on particular assumptions about magnetic materials and configurations, which are not fully explored in the discussion.

Felipe Lincoln
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If I have a magnetic field describing a closed path it means that this closed path is surrounding a current, right? But if I have no current, is it the displacement current ?
I'm thinking of a magnetic dipole, its magnetic field describes closed paths from its north to south pole, so is there a displacement current surrounding the longitudinal axis of a magnetic dipole?
 
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Felipe Lincoln said:
I'm thinking of a magnetic dipole, its magnetic field describes closed paths from its north to south pole, so is there a displacement current surrounding the longitudinal axis of a magnetic dipole?
No, it isn’t a displacement current. It is what is called a bound current.
 
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A single loop of current is a magnetic dipole.## \\ ## In the case of a solid cylindrical magnet of finite length, in one model used to describe the magnetic effects, the magnetism ## \vec{M} ## in the material results in bound magnetic surface currents which are geometrically equivalent to the currents of a solenoid.
 
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Wow, never heard of it.
Is it also given by ## \epsilon_0\dfrac{\partial \Phi_E}{\partial t}## ?
 
The magnetic surface currents are presented in Griffiths' E&M textbook. He presents them so quickly, without extra emphasis, that I think many students overlook them. He does a derivation involving the vector potential ## A ## for an arbitrary distribution of magnetic dioples, and then at the very end, he shows this is equivalent to having bulk currents with current density ## J_m=\nabla \times M ##, along with surface current per unit length ## K_m=M \times \hat{n} ##. ## \\ ## (i.e. you get the same ## A ## as you would from current sources that are the bulk current from the magnetization along with the bound surface currents, because ## A(x)=\frac{\mu_o}{4 \pi} \int \frac{J(x')}{|x-x'|} \, d^3x' ## from current sources ## J ##). ## \\ ## See also: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/magnetic-field-of-a-ferromagnetic-cylinder.863066/
and
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/permanent-magnets-ferromagnetism-magnetic-surface-currents/ ## \\ ## And no, what you have shown ## I_D=\mu_o \epsilon_o \frac{\partial{\Phi_E}}{\partial{t}}## is the displacement current that can be found in a capacitor that is charging, as well as in transverse electromagnetic waves.
 
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Ok, thanks for the answer.
 
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