News Another day, another (four) murdered in London

[cristo]

Four men, including a teenager, were stabbed to death in one day in separate attacks in London.

A 19-year-old youth, who has not been named, suffered multiple stab wounds in Edmonton, north London.

Later on Thursday two men in their 20s were killed in attacks a few miles away in Leyton and Walthamstow, east London. A man in his 40s died from stab wounds after being found at the back of a disused pub in Tottenham High Road, Tottenham, north London.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7501258.stm

... and it doesn't even make the front page of the news. Instead, BBC news leads with David Davis's joke by-election win.

Is it just me, or is this situation getting pretty serious? 20 teenagers have been murdered this year in London, and every day we wake up an hear of someone else being a victim of knife crime. Or is this just a matter of the media reporting on this more, in an attempt to sway the government to take some action. Has this always been an issue?

 

[Art]

Gov't statistics show the level of knife crime to be steady over the past several years. It has become the focus of media attention lately though with Sky News in particular crusading for tougher laws to clamp down on knife carrying thugs.

To put it in perspective 20 fatal stabbings from a population of 7 million Londoners isn't exactly huge.

 

[cristo]

To put it in perspective 20 fatal stabbings from a population of 7 million Londoners isn't exactly huge.

But this isn't just 20 fatal stabbings, is it? It's 20 fatal stabbings of teenagers. Although, proportionately it's not a huge number, it's still something that's pretty serious, especially if you believe some of the things that these kids say in interviews. The gang culture in London is getting more and more popular, so I think it's about time the government do something about it!

 

[lisab]

I used to live in a city that was taken over by gangs almost overnight. The final straw for me came when an apartment down the block from me was bombed! Someone threw what was described as a quarter-stick of dynomite into an alcove, to discourage that person from selling drugs out of their apartment. The blast was unbelievable - it blew out the windows of a car parked across the street.

Of course everyone called the police - and they never came! They were too busy with all the shootings happening elsewhere. I moved away right after that.

But the cops regrouped and took on the gangs head-on. It took several years, but that city is essentially gang-free now.

The cops in the area where these murders are happening have to get serious right away - this kind of thing can escalate incredibly fast. Sounds like it already has...

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I think it's about time the government do something about it!

For starters, they should pass a law limiting to 20 the number of murders of people between the ages of 13 and 19, inclusive, in the city of London. Once this is done, get back to me.

 

[cristo]

For starters, they should pass a law limiting to 20 the number of murders of people between the ages of 13 and 19, inclusive, in the city of London. Once this is done, get back to me.

I don't know about you, but I don't find this situation very funny.

 

[Art]

But this isn't just 20 fatal stabbings, is it? It's 20 fatal stabbings of teenagers. Although, proportionately it's not a huge number, it's still something that's pretty serious, especially if you believe some of the things that these kids say in interviews. The gang culture in London is getting more and more popular, so I think it's about time the government do something about it!

It's teenagers who join gangs and carry knives so it is not surprising the victims are teenagers.

The police have recently launched a stop and search operation which in a few days resulted in a few hundred arrests. One does wonder why the police aren't doing this on a regular basis rather than wait for Sky News to prompt them into action?? I suspect in the greater scheme of things the police do not see knife crime as a major problem and so not worthy of applying major resources to. A few months back all the media focus was on gun crime. Gun crime hasn't gone away but the news stations with their institutional ADD have moved onto a new latest crusade dragging the police behind them.

Ross Kemp did a very good documentary on gang culture in major British cities and I agree it looks fairly dire but how does one tackle it? The aggressiveness of today's youth is a product of years of PC. When I was young growing up in an English city young people had a healthy respect and fear of adults. Any adult would feel quite entitled to clip some youngster around the head for misbehaving but then the PC brigade waded in. Adults who so much as laid a finger on unruly kids were prosecuted and so over time kids grew to know they could act with impunity and so became more and more unruly to the point where I see the situation now as irreversible.

 

[Art]

According to the official crime statistics murder in England and Wales peaked in 2002/3 at a little over 1000 and has fallen quite sharply since then to 765 in 2005/2006 (including the 52 victims of the London bombings) which puts it on a par with the number of murders back in the early 90's. Given the not inconsiderable increase in Britain's population during this time the rate per capita has declined over time. This fall probably accounts for the police's slightly blase reaction to the current media hype around fatal stabbings.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page40.asp

 

[arildno]

Note that it is predominantly MUSLIM gang culture we are talking about..

 

[WarPhalange]

But this isn't just 20 fatal stabbings, is it? It's 20 fatal stabbings of teenagers.

I know, I don't know what people are crying about, either.

 

[cristo]

I know, I don't know what people are crying about, either.

You don't know what people are crying about? Let me give you a clue: children are being murdered.

 

[drankin]

Note that it is predominantly MUSLIM gang culture we are talking about..

Now, I wouldn't know this unless you told me. Doesn't the media point this out? Or is it not politically correct to show statistics when it involves a predominately religious portion of the community?

 

[f95toli]

Note that it is predominantly MUSLIM gang culture we are talking about..

Eh?

I would say it is mainly an AMERICAN gang culture if you want to point to a specific cultural influence (which is an oversimplification). If you look at the clothes many of them wear, the music they listen to etc it is clearly influenced by the "gangsta" culture.
In some ways British kids are probably more easily influenced by this than their US peers, mainly because most of them have no idea what it is like to REALLY be in an American gang or live in e.g. South Central; they just think the culture is "cool".
But, again, this is an oversimplification. There is no single "cause" of this.

Also, this is nothing new and society as a whole is actually getting less violent in most countries; but we just notice the violence more than in the past due to the 24/7 media coverage. The effect is that while most people are safer they don't feel safer and act (and vote) accordingly.

Moreover, we need to be a bit cynical: 20 teenagers in a city of 7 million is actually not much, compare this number to the number of teenagers that e.g. commited suicide,died in car accident etc

 

[WarPhalange]

You don't know what people are crying about? Let me give you a clue: children are being murdered.

Not children. Teenagers. Sub-human mounds of flesh that operate with a pack mentality and inhale food to turn it into angst and nihilism. It's about time we had a culling of them.

 

[Art]

Now, I wouldn't know this unless you told me. Doesn't the media point this out? Or is it not politically correct to show statistics when it involves a predominately religious portion of the community?

Arildno just made that statistic up off the top of his head for some unknown reason. Pathetic!

 

[Art]

Not children. Teenagers. Sub-human mounds of flesh that operate with a pack mentality and inhale food to turn it into angst and nihilism. It's about time we had a culling of them.

Perhaps they need role models such as yourself to guide them in acquiring characteristics such as tolerance and humanitarianism

 

[cristo]

Not children. Teenagers. Sub-human mounds of flesh that operate with a pack mentality and inhale food to turn it into angst and nihilism. It's about time we had a culling of them.

Wow! So you were never a teenager then? Sorry, but with comments like this it is impossible to take anything you say seriously.

 

[WarPhalange]

That's probably for the best.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Eh?

I would say it is mainly an AMERICAN gang culture if you want to point to a specific cultural influence (which is an oversimplification). If you look at the clothes many of them wear, the music they listen to etc it is clearly influenced by the "gangsta" culture.
In some ways British kids are probably more easily influenced by this than their US peers, mainly because most of them have no idea what it is like to REALLY be in an American gang or live in e.g. South Central; they just think the culture is "cool".
But, again, this is an oversimplification. There is no single "cause" of this.

Nor do the vast majority of American kids have any idea what it is really like. They listen to 'gangsta' rap, watch MTV, wear baggy clothes and 'bling' but have probably never met a real 'gansta' in their entire lives.
Also 'American' gang culture is a so called melting pot too. There are gangs from all different cultures around here. Hispanics, asians, samoans, ect.
I'd hazard the guess that the vast majority of the 'american' style ganstas you see are doing nothing more that trying to look cool.

 

[nabki]

there is a worldwide problem with teenagers, and i don't know why.
in britan, you have 3 types of muslim teenagers
1. the kewl gangsta boyz who all want to beat people up because they arent muslims, hang around street corners and be stupid in general.
2. the radicals.
3. everyone else.

i think the problem is with the general degredation of respect and manners. teenagers feel pointless, and need a sense of identity. they don't have any outline for what they want to do with their lives. or maybe its because of gangsta culture, which as TheStatutoryApe makes teens look up to idiots who are quite pointless and immature. probably its because of a mix of things.

 

[arildno]

Arildno just made that statistic up off the top of his head for some unknown reason. Pathetic!

Really?
TO make just a few examples clear to you:
A couple of years ago, police here in Oslo revealed that 72% of the rapes committed were done by men from "minority groups". (That was revealed to be Somalians and Pakistanis, for the most part).
This was closely related to an extreme rise in gang-rapes.
Similarly, Pakistani groups control much of the heroine trade in the city.

This picture is largely the same all over Europe.

 

[nabki]

and you still haven't given us any good sources arildno. just more allegations. and you can't tie theese people to muslim gangs, since what they are doing is strictly prohibited in islamic law. there is no way they misunderstood that part. unlike the 1. gang members, who believe they are doing what's best.

 

[arildno]

1. You don't read Norwegian
2. You are an ostrich, so it wouldn't be any point, anyway.

 

[nabki]

eh? so you make allegations but you can't back them up because I am an ostrich?

 

[f95toli]

Arildno: The "knife crime problem" has nothing to do with immigrants here in the UK. Whereas some (but far from all) of the kids that have been killed here lately were second or third generation immigrants I don't think you can draw any conclusions from that; besides the fact that crime in general is more likely to affect people from the poorer areas of a city (e.g. some of the estates in southeast London).
"Traditionally" knife-crime in the UK has mainly been a problem in Scotland among white, young men with working-class backgrounds. Over the past few years the number of cases have dropped just about everywhere besides some "hotspots" in e.g. parts of London.

Moreover, most of the "Hoodies" I see around here are definitely white and English.

Don't believe everything you read in "Verdens gang". Some Norwegian papers are almost as
bad as the tabloids here in the UK (I'm Swedish, but my dad lives in Norway).

 

[Art]

Really?

Yes really!

TO make just a few examples clear to you:
A couple of years ago, police here in Oslo revealed that 72% of the rapes committed were done by men from "minority groups". (That was revealed to be Somalians and Pakistanis, for the most part).
This was closely related to an extreme rise in gang-rapes.
Similarly, Pakistani groups control much of the heroine trade in the city.

This picture is largely the same all over Europe.

Geography obviously isn't your strong suit. Since when has Oslo been part of the UK which is the subject of this thread?? And where is your source to show your (once again unsubstantiated) local data bears any resemblance to the profile of criminals in Europe as a whole and the UK in particular.

Here's some information on the UK's sexual assault profiles for 2004, the latest available

Crown Court (deals with serious cases) sentences for sexual assault - White 2157 Black 200 Asian 158 Other 78. Note ethnicity was based on appearance and so includes British born ethnic minority members.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/s95race05.pdf Page 75

As you can see it blows away your theory re Muslims being responsible for 72% of rapes certainly in the UK and given the disparity between reality and what you claim I suspect your Norwegian data was a figment of your imagination.

With only 30,000 Pakistanis in all of Norway. half of which were born there, the males amongst them would have to be phenomenally busy for your statistic to be even remotely true. http://www.ssb.no/innvstat_en/

See it's not so hard to find official sources covering Norway and written in English.

I've often wondered how so called intelligent people especially those who work in scientific fields where conclusions are based on evidence succumb so easily to racial prejudices which by definition are unsupported beliefs. Then again maybe only the stupid ones do

 

[hagopbul]

if the knife stabes are more than 10 this mean that this is a cult or some kind a religious
this crimes are organize they pick there victims. this kind of crimes was happening in the US

and usually they try to rich some number of stabes on every victim...60 to 70 stabes they are well-organized and they have people in police some time... be careful
they uselly do it in dark

 

[arildno]

Well, the 72% were statistics for Oslo, of course. I never said it was right for the UK.
Here's an article on that from Aftenposten, in 2001, when the percentage was 65%.
In the intervening years, that percentage has increased.
"Non-Western immigrants" is a euphemism for Muslims.
Whereas every other immigrant group has virtually the same crime rates as the indigenous population, immigrants from Muslim countries are extremely over-represented:
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece
Our latest batch has been 5 extremely ugly serial rapist cases (I happen to know one victim personally), all 5 perpetrators being Somalian men

 

[arildno]

Furthermore, I wonder how there exists complete idiots who think Islam, or any other religion, is a race.

 

[WarPhalange]

if the knife stabes are more than 10 this mean that this is a cult or some kind a religious
this crimes are organize they pick there victims. this kind of crimes was happening in the US

Or they are just really angry. Or they are under the affect of adrenaline where they can't even think straight and fully commit to whatever action they decide.

Of course, if a religious cult decided to only use 9 stabs, it would completely elude your radar, right?

and usually they try to rich some number of stabes on every victim...60 to 70 stabes they are well-organized and they have people in police some time... be careful
they uselly do it in dark

How do you know so much about knife murders?

 

[arildno]

Well, here are a few samples, from the US Department of State's 2005 report on religious freedom:
Netherlands:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51571.htm
I quote:

Muslims already faced continuing criticism for such perceived problems as the poor integration of Muslim immigrants into society, THE HIGH LEVEL OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY among Muslim youth, and the conservative views of orthodox Muslims on topics such as women, homosexuals, and corporal punishment. Overcoming habitual reticence and abandoning Dutch libertarian attitudes toward religion, a number of outspoken politicians, mainly on the right, openly argue that Islam itself is incompatible with Dutch traditions and social values.

Denmark:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51549.htm

Minority group unemployment figures, crime rates (especially among young adults), and education dropout rates tend to be higher, and allegations sometimes are raised of discrimination on the basis of religion. However, it is difficult to separate religious differences from differences in language and ethnicity, and the latter may be equally important in explaining unequal access to well-paying jobs and social advancement. The integration of immigrant groups from Islamic countries is an important political and social topic of discussion.

Typical case of Muslim anti-semitic attitudes, from Sweden this time:

The number of reported anti-Semitic crimes has increased since the end of the nineties, and averaged approximately 130 annually during the period 2000-03, with 128 crimes reported in 2003. The largest single category of anti-Semitic crime in 2003 was agitation against an ethnic group with 52 reported incidents, and unlawful threat/molestation second with 35 reported incidents. There were three reported cases of assault during the same period. Some Jews believe that increases in attacks are directly linked to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and increased tensions in the Middle East at large. Since the beginning of the second intifada in 2000, the Jewish Community in the country no longer sees its primary threats coming from neo-Nazis but from Islamic and leftist extremists.


In 2003, four young persons of Arabic origin broke into a Jewish-owned shop in Malmö, shouting anti-Semitic epithets and threats, after which they attacked the shop owner and another Jew. The shop owner was sent to hospital for treatment. Two weeks earlier, Muslims had thrown stones at employees of the Jewish Burial Society at the Jewish cemetery in Malmö. In June 2004, a football match between a Jewish and predominantly Muslim Somali youth team ended with the Jewish players being attacked by Muslim Somali players. More recent examples of anti-Semitic incidents include the harassment for being "from Israel" of a Jew at a commercial establishment in Stockholm in December 2004, and the burning of a swastika at a Jewish burial site in Norrkoping in January 2005.

 

[f95toli]

Hmmm.. I am pretty sure the majority of all anti-semitic hate crimes in Sweden are still commited by white men, specifically neo-nazis etc. Although lately it seems Sverigedemokraterna and other organizations have been focusing on blaming everying-that-is-wrong-in-society on muslims instead of jews.
When in lived in Gothenburg I DEFINTLY got more nervous if I met a group of skinheads than if I met a group of muslim youth when walking home(and I am white and blue-eyed).

But, as has already been pointed out, that has little to do with the topic of this thread.
Not even the tabloids are blaming the increase of knife crime in London on muslims, looking at published names of the victims as well as the offenders I would say it is unlikely that muslims are over-represented in the statistics. And as I pointed out above: Just a few years ago the "hotspots" for knife crime where in Scotland.

 

[arildno]

Here are some statistics on the Muslim prison population in the UK and France:

Over-representation

The UK's almost two million Muslims appear to be nearly three times over-represented in prisons. There are no official statistics in France about religion, but informal estimates agree that Muslims - about five million in all - are again heavily over-represented. In both countries, however, the proportion of foreign nationals among Muslim prisoners is thought to be high.

Source:
http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/Plain_English_Summaries/environment/human_activities/index314.aspx?ComponentId=9854&SourcePageId=11699

 

[arildno]

The renowned British newspaper The Independent ran the following article on a particularly vicious London-based Muslim gang, "The Muslim Boys", and their possible link to terrorism in 2005:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/special-investigation-are-muslim-boys-using-profits-of-crime-to-fund-terrorist-attacks-502831.html

 

[cristo]

Moreover, most of the "Hoodies" I see around here are definitely white and English.

But then I could say precisely the opposite: the majority of "hoodies" I see are muslim or black. It all depends on where you live. I'm not so sure I'd go so far as saying that the gang culture in London is predominantly muslim oriented, but it certainly exists, and is not an odd case here and there.

 

[seycyrus]

ah yes. it seems like arildno has islamaphobia. and a very hot temper.

I have seen indications of neither.

You denigrated him for not providing sources. He provided them.

 

[nabki]

nope, he has not given me 1 shred of evidence to back up what he said. he said 72% in oslo, then he backed down and said 65% in 2001, and he made a lot of presumptions. why don't i go and say that 'western' inmates in the UAE make up 75% of the prison population, say they are all danes? then give you a statistic that is years out of date? and don't you think economic reasons play a part in crime? what he is saying is that theese nationalaties commit certain crimes, and they are all muslims so that means they represent the muslim minorotiy. I'm trying to find the report that says muslims in britan are golden citizens.

Whereas every other immigrant group has virtually the same crime rates as the indigenous population, immigrants from Muslim countries are extremely over-represented:

Here are some statistics on the Muslim prison population in the UK and France:

The renowned British newspaper The Independent ran the following article on a particularly vicious London-based Muslim gang, "The Muslim Boys", and their possible link to terrorism in 2005:

but then again: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jan/21/islamandbritain.comment14

Muslim citizenship is enriching for the whole society.

violence and marginalisation have nothing to do with Islam or Islamic belonging.

 

[neu]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/14/knifecrime.ukcrime

And police mistakenly target individuals who, though gang members or associates, are not themselves engaged in criminal action - thus cutting them off as potential sources of help, driving them into gang membership, and confirming the status of gangs.

I've been stopped twice by the police in london for "suspicious behaviour". Both times I was alone waiting for someone on the street, when for some reason a local resident fell obligated to phone the police. I happen to be white and a little studious with my glasses, and I don't wear particulaly "urban" clothes (you'll have to trust me on that) but if I was considered a threat then how are just as innocent and unaware but more "menacing" poeple going to fair?

Now I think this is important and highlights the fundamental issue. Young people are vilified in this country(UK). Not just in public areas but at school as well. If you're unlucky enough to grow up in a deprived area and goto a school where you're assumed to be a faluire a priori then you're f*cked.

Now within this framework of social and material deprivation crime is certain, and violent crime hits the headlines when it's considered flavour of the month by the media.

I'm not saying any of the violence is justified but is it any surprise that it exists?

 

[cristo]

I've been stopped twice by the police in london for "suspicious behaviour". Both times I was alone waiting for someone on the street, when for some reason a local resident fell obligated to phone the police.

If you are hanging around on the street then it is the resident's prerogative to decide whether or not you look like enough of a thread to warrant calling the police. It is the police's duty to investigate such a report. Note that the police have the right to stop and question anyone they like, without having to give a firm reason: they could just say that you were acting dodgily. Quite frankly, I don't see the problem here: if you were behaving yourself, then you have nothing to fear.

 

[seycyrus]

nope, he has not given me 1 shred of evidence to back up what he said. he said 72% in oslo, then he backed down and said 65% in 2001, and he made a lot of presumptions.

Yes.

He provided plenty of references. You must not have not looked hard enough at one of his initial sources, even tho it was in the opening paragraph.

If presumptions were made, he didn't make them, rather his sources did.

His supposition seems to be pretty clear. And he certainly has given enough references to support his exposure to his point of view.

...the muslim minorotiy. I'm trying to find the report that says muslims in britan are golden citizens.

I'm trying to find in his posts where he claims that they do.

 

[f95toli]

But then I could say precisely the opposite: the majority of "hoodies" I see are muslim or black. It all depends on where you live. I'm not so sure I'd go so far as saying that the gang culture in London is predominantly muslim oriented, but it certainly exists, and is not an odd case here and there.

True. But the point I was trying to make is that this is -as has always been- a general problem wherever you live (I live in SW London). Young men killing other young men is not exactly a new problem.
Howevever, it is important to put this problem into some kind of context. Of course we should do what we kind to prevent these kinds of crimes; but the most common cause of death in the UK is still -by large margin- traffic accidents and for the vast majority of people the risk of getting stabbed is extremely low; despite what the tabloids try to tell us.

Many of the kids that carry knifes do so because they are afraid, and for most of them that fear is irrational (meaning the likelyhood of them being attacked is in reality extremely low) but by just carrying a knife the risk increases.
Someone referred to it as a culture of fear and that fear is to large extent due to the way this is reported in the media.

 

[arildno]

....
but then again: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jan/21/islamandbritain.comment14

Eeh, you are using TARIQ RAMADAN as a source for how "enriching" Muslims are for the whole society??

Tariq Ramadan, whose brother advocates the stoning of adulterous women according to sharia and whose grandfather founded the terrorist organization Muslim Brotherhood??

Sure, that is a VERY credible source..

For those interested in this very shady "intellectual", I advise you to read Caroline Fourest's book "Brother Tariq":
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594032157/?tag=pfamazon01-20
As for Ms Fourest herself, here's her Wikipedia entry:

Caroline Fourest (born September 19, 1975 in Aix-en-Provence) is a French feminist writer, journalist, editor of the magazine "Prochoix," and author of Frère Tariq (Brother Tariq), a critical look at the works of the Muslim intellectual Tariq Ramadan.

A graduate in sociology and political science, as a journalist she has written many books on such topics as the conservative right, the pro-life movement (France and USA), and on current fundamentalist trends in Abrahamic religions (Jewish, Christian, and Muslim). She served as President of the Gay and Lesbian Center ("Centre Gai et Lesbien"), beginning in 1999.

In March 2006, she signed MANIFESTO: Together facing the new totalitarianism, a manifesto against Islamist Totalitarianism that gained wide publicity and for which she and the other 11 signatories, including Salman Rushdie, Ibn Warraq, Maryam Namazie, Taslima Nasreen, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali received death threats [1].

She has received several awards for her work, including the National award of "Laïcité" in 2005, and the "Award of the political book" in 2006.


[edit] Books

 

[arildno]

he said 72% in oslo, then he backed down and said 65% in 2001, and he made a lot of presumptions.

I certainly didn't "back down":
1. 65% and 72% is in the same order of magnitude
2. I explicitly said "a few years ago", which was correct.

3. What are these "lots of presumptions"??

 

[arildno]

why don't i go and say that 'western' inmates in the UAE make up 75% of the prison population, say they are all danes?

Well, if Danes DO constitute 75% of the prison population in UAE, or EVER HAS DONE SO, then come up with the evidence for it!

then give you a statistic that is years out of date?

"out of date" means NO LONGER VALID.
You cannot claim that a statistics is invalid as out of date, UNLESS YOU PROVIDE NEW STATISTICS!

 

[neu]

If you are hanging around on the street then it is the resident's prerogative to decide whether or not you look like enough of a thread to warrant calling the police. It is the police's duty to investigate such a report. Note that the police have the right to stop and question anyone they like, without having to give a firm reason: they could just say that you were acting dodgily. Quite frankly, I don't see the problem here: if you were behaving yourself, then you have nothing to fear.

I don't have a problem with being stopped, that's not my point, and you have told me nothing new. "Hanging around" implies a swagger or an increased pressence, that wasn't the case, I was simply waiting for someone, sitting alone and not moving. I was behaving myself, and I feared nothing, this was not my point.

My point is that the fact that person deemed me a threat, from my point of view, was a vast over reaction. Why they deemed me to be a threat I can't say, but to me it's indicative of a culture of fear. People fear things like knife crime and street violence and often they are justified (I used to live in Seven Sisters and saw violence in public), but far more often they aren't. Now I'm not saying that people should be critised for being over-vigilant, I'm saying that that in itself can be contribute to the problem to an extent that people don't realize.

If everywhere you go you are treated as an undesirable then you can become a self fulfilling prophecy. My comment is that I was labelled as a threat, then the threat labelling process is deluded. This happened twice under the same circumstances in different areas to me, but I really can't convey the absurdity of the event in words.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I don't have a problem with being stopped, that's not my point, and you have told me nothing new. "Hanging around" implies a swagger or an increased pressence, that wasn't the case, I was simply waiting for someone, sitting alone and not moving. I was behaving myself, and I feared nothing, this was not my point.

My point is that the fact that person deemed me a threat, from my point of view, was a vast over reaction. Why they deemed me to be a threat I can't say, but to me it's indicative of a culture of fear. People fear things like knife crime and street violence and often they are justified (I used to live in Seven Sisters and saw violence in public), but far more often they aren't. Now I'm not saying that people should be critised for being over-vigilant, I'm saying that that in itself can be contribute to the problem to an extent that people don't realize.

If everywhere you go you are treated as an undesirable then you can become a self fulfilling prophecy. My comment is that I was labelled as a threat, then the threat labelling process is deluded. This happened twice under the same circumstances in different areas to me, but I really can't convey the absurdity of the event in words.

I was at work in uniform (a security guard) checking the cars in the parking lot and was stopped by police who had their hands on their weapons telling me to put my hands up. They proceeded to ask me (again, while I'm in uniform) what I was doing on the property. Police are supposed to play things on the safe side. You never know who might be commiting a crime. If I see someone standing around for no apparent reason on the property I work I will likely approach them myself and ask them what they are up to, if they need any help with anything, ect.
I was actually removing fliers from cars that someone had come through and placed on the doors. The officers who saw me thought it looked like I was checking to see if doors on the cars might be unlocked so I could steal something. Of course I thought that the way they approached me was a bit overboard but I think its part of their training to make sure they don't allow a criminal to get the drop on them.

 

[neu]

Police are supposed to play things on the safe side. You never know who might be commiting a crime.

I agree, I have no problem with this obvious neccesity. And only an idiot would take being stopped by the police frequently as justification for criminal behaviour, but this is an important element as it is an overt statement to young people that they can't and won't be trusted.

I lived in a flat in Kings cross directly on a street corner where a gang of around 10 - 20 teenagers just hanged around nearly every night outside my front door. And I found it intimidating and annoying and I did think about the calling the police. But over the whole 9 months I was there they didn't cause me any trouble. They were undoubtably idiots but harmless ones none the less. They were a nuissance. When people did call the police on them, the police were more threating that the kids, they shouted at me entering my flat amongst other things.

I don't want to harp on about my point, but I think it's an understated an important one, if perhaps inconsequential. I just think it's important to see more than the efforcement side of the story

 

[hagopbul]

you won't find 9 stabes
3 stabes are for example are the mayan ,and they are no more off them.. so yes there is no cult that use les than 10 because in most cases the stabes executed by more than one person
and if you found it the number of them will be less than 10%
and no one angry will put in some one budy more than 9-12 stabes and some times they use the same knife on the victim for example the leader stabes 10 times then he give the knife to some one to do it again on the same victim then this man give it to other one to do it agin and so on

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

you won't find 9 stabes
3 stabes are for example are the mayan ,and they are no more off them.. so yes there is no cult that use les than 10 because in most cases the stabes executed by more than one person
and if you found it the number of them will be less than 10%
and no one angry will put in some one budy more than 9-12 stabes and some times they use the same knife on the victim for example the leader stabes 10 times then he give the knife to some one to do it again on the same victim then this man give it to other one to do it agin and so on

Have the Thugee graduated from garrotes to stilettos?

 

[mjolnir80]

i grew up in tehran , iran and we had almost 500 murders a week in the city
to report on every single one is just stupid