Troubleshooting Anti-Lock Brakes on 04 Dakota | Expert Tips

[mtworkowski@o]

When mine kick in it's like I'm sliding on ice. I'm pulling the fuse. Is there something wrong with them or do they just work badly by design? 04 Dakota.

 

[mgb_phys]

That's a pickup truck right?
And you never have any cargo in it.
So you put on the brakes but because there is no weight on the rear wheels they immediately lockup as the back off the truck bounces into the air, and so the ABS instantly releases them.
Basically there is no point in having rear brakes on an empty pickup truck - of course there is no point in driving an empty pickup truck but that's a different arguement.

 

[mtworkowski@o]

Rethink and come back again...

 

[mtworkowski@o]

You're taking too long. This is the deal. The truck is always full, not empty. The back wheels don't leave the ground, I don't think. Back brakes do nothing anyway so why even consider them? Thank you for the response. I'm serious, don't jump up with your hair on fire like that. By the way, for clarification sake, it's when the ABS is engaged that it feels like ice. Not when it turns off...

 

[brewnog]

Do you realize that this forum is not a public service, nobody is obliged to give you an answer, and rude comments such as those won't get you help any more quickly?

 

[mtworkowski@o]

You're right. I apologize.

 

[mgb_phys]

ABS just stops the wheel locking up - it monitors the wheel rotation and releases the brakes slightly if the wheel stops moving. A sliding tire doesn't do as much to stop you as one which is gripping the road and still turning.
It only works if there is enough weight on the wheel to keep it turning and there is some grip between the tire and the road. Even my 4wd subaru with ABS slipped backward on a hill covered in deep snow this winter.

The problem with pickup trucks is that they are designed to have a heavy load in them to keep all four wheels weighted down on the road. They have very simple chassis and suspension compared to a car which let's wheels lift up. And they have twice as much mass.
As soon as you brake the momentum pushes the front of the truck down and the back up, so the rear brakes are lifted off the road ( or at least unweighted) and the ABS can't apply much braking force without them locking up.
So all the braking is being done by the front wheels, but now they have all the weight of the vehicle on them. If you try and steer at all, the wheel is now slightly sideways to to the direction it is being pushed and stops rotating as much and so the ABS releases the brakes.
Without ABS in an unloaded pickup, all that happens is that you lock up the wheels and it bounces along the road.

 

[mtworkowski@o]

Thank you. Should I pull the fuse now or wait for an accident?

 

[mgb_phys]

I wouldn't pull any fuses - you don't know what else they are disabling!

I would recognise that if you are driving a large pickup truck you have to drive more like a professional truck driver. Leave a bigger gap in front of you, like twice the stopping distance of a car, check traffic and lights further ahead.
Basicaly just think that driving 3tons of heavy iron gives you more capability than a minivan but it also gives you more responsibility to drive better.

If you are often driving it empty you might have to keep some extra weight (bags of sand) over the back axle - especially in winter.

Or you can buy a Subaru and rely on it's amazing brakes and accelaration to get you out of trouble!

 

[pantaz]

Try an experiment: Find a large, empty parking lot and perform some brake tests. Accelerate to, say, a steady 30 mph (50 kph) then nail the brakes at a marked spot. Measure your stopping distance with and without ABS enabled.
Note: For ABS to work properly, you need to keep the brake pedal firmly depressed until the vehicle is stopped. If you try modulating/pumping the pedal, you defeat the ABS system.

 

[NoTime]

A) Did the ABS always work as described?
B) Just what kind of road conditions are you on when this occurs.
C) How hard are you trying to brake in those conditions.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

When mine kick in it's like I'm sliding on ice. I'm pulling the fuse. Is there something wrong with them or do they just work badly by design? 04 Dakota.

Should I pull the fuse now or wait for an accident?

Seeing as how it's only an '04, I would suspect the ABS is working fine. If by "it feels I'm sliding on ice" you mean the brake pedal seems to go somewhat soft, that is a normal symptom of ABS engagement. You have to make sure to keep solid pressure on the pedal even if ABS engages to ensure maximum stopping power. You might also check to see if your rear brake proportioning valve is working properly, and that your brake pads/rotors/drums are all in proper working condition.

The idea of checking if the system is working properly by testing your brakes with and without the ABS fuse seems like a good one, as long as you are careful (you should stop faster with ABS and continuous pedal pressure). Alternatively, you can have the system inspected by the dealership. I personally would not be comfortable with just pulling the fuse and calling it a day.

 

[Cyrus]

Oh you bought an american car. PROBLEM FOUND!

 

[mtworkowski@o]

A) Did the ABS always work as described?
B) Just what kind of road conditions are you on when this occurs.
C) How hard are you trying to brake in those conditions.

Excellent questions. I think the system always worked as described. The second and third questions I'll explain. On dry cement, when the system kicks in I get that "no brakes" feeling if I have to make a quick stop. I always have to modulate the brakes to get a decent stopping distance. On wet surfaces I can apply the brakes hard enough to cause the front wheels to lock up. If I have to modulate my foot pressure and the wheels lock up on hard stops, what the heck is the system accomplishing. I really don't think ABS has evolved very much and it needs a complete rethink. I find the whole subject really fascinating.

 

[mtworkowski@o]

I have another brake related question. I've noticed that the calipers on some cars are in different places. To my thinking the front caliper should be behind the wheel. The back of the rotor is going up. I think this would keep the front from diving on hard braking. Also the back caliper should be in front of the wheel. To keep the back of the car from lifting. I don't see this consistently on all cars. I just saw a Buick SUV with the calipers in exactly the opposite locations.

 

[Averagesupernova]

I wouldn't pull any fuses - you don't know what else they are disabling!

I would recognise that if you are driving a large pickup truck you have to drive more like a professional truck driver. Leave a bigger gap in front of you, like twice the stopping distance of a car, check traffic and lights further ahead.
Basicaly just think that driving 3tons of heavy iron gives you more capability than a minivan but it also gives you more responsibility to drive better.

If you are often driving it empty you might have to keep some extra weight (bags of sand) over the back axle - especially in winter.

Or you can buy a Subaru and rely on it's amazing brakes and accelaration to get you out of trouble!

Dodge Dakota large truck? LMAO It's the largest of the small pickup trucks. It hardly weighs 6000 Lbs. I would give an estimated guess of around 3500. I am not a fan of ABS to start with so I'd disable them if it were me. I've never noticed an unloaded pickup truck slide it's back wheels when stopping quickly and I've driven a few of them. In virtually any vehicle excluding semi-trucks a large majority of the braking is in the front end. Up until the mid-70s semi tractors didn't even have brakes on the front (steering) wheels.

 

[Averagesupernova]

I have another brake related question. I've noticed that the calipers on some cars are in different places. To my thinking the front caliper should be behind the wheel. The back of the rotor is going up. I think this would keep the front from diving on hard braking. Also the back caliper should be in front of the wheel. To keep the back of the car from lifting. I don't see this consistently on all cars. I just saw a Buick SUV with the calipers in exactly the opposite locations.

If the calipers were attached to the road instead of the spindle assembly then you would have something. Otherwise it will make no difference to what you are referring to.

 

[pantaz]

On wet surfaces I can apply the brakes hard enough to cause the front wheels to lock up.

Okay, now I understand -- your truck has http://www.abs-education.org/faqs/faqindex.htm" . That was/is offered on trucks only. (I think my friend's Chevy Blazer had it, too.)

This article describes some of the problems you are experiencing:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs_kelseyhayes_rwal.htm

One of the most unnerving failures that can occur with this system is the loss of pedal when braking. The problem may feel like a bad master cylinder, but it may not be the master cylinder. The real problem may be a bad Electro Hydraulic (EH) valve in the rear wheel antilock brake system.

 

[mtworkowski@o]

Pantaz. thanks for the link and the response. I read what they said and it's not quite what I've got going. #1 No pedal collapse...pedal acts fine. #2 I know what they said but I think this truck has ABS in the front. I'll tell you why. The back brakes on any vehicle are pretty week. They do almost nothing. I usually change the backs every other time I do the fronts. I also drove a motorcycle for a while and I know from that, that the only way to stop is to hit the front brake. The back brake only made the back end swirve out if you hit that one by itself. Now, having said that, why would any influence of rear wheel ABS have such a large effect on the braking as a whole. I contend that you could go and cut your rear brakes right out of the loop and nothing would happen. If you don't agree, try stopping your car with the hand brake next time.
Anyway it's an interesting problem.

 

[mtworkowski@o]

Okay, now I understand -- your truck has http://www.abs-education.org/faqs/faqindex.htm" . That was/is offered on trucks only. (I think my friend's Chevy Blazer had it, too.)

This article describes some of the problems you are experiencing:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs_kelseyhayes_rwal.htm

I just dug up the window sticker to see if you were right. you were right. I'm not getting the pedal collapse but something is still wrong. I think you're on the something. This explains why the front wheels can be locked up. But I wouldn't have thought that the back brakes were doing so much work. I think it's like this. When you apply the brakes there's a balance between how fast you want to stop and how hard you push on the brake. If something changes while you're braking, its influence is felt quite a bit. Is rear ABS a useful thing of is it just hype? thanks

 

[pantaz]

Well, if you can lock-up the front wheels under hard braking, then you either have rear-wheel-anti-lock, or your ABS is broken.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

To my thinking the front caliper should be behind the wheel. The back of the rotor is going up. I think this would keep the front from diving on hard braking. Also the back caliper should be in front of the wheel. To keep the back of the car from lifting. I don't see this consistently on all cars. I just saw a Buick SUV with the calipers in exactly the opposite locations.

The brake calipers are mounted to the steering knuckle, and reaction forces from them being used are taken by the knuckle. They aren't mounted to the suspension, so what side of the rotor they are on has no bearing on the braking characteristics of the vehicle, it is only an engineering consideration based on the location of things like steering components.

The front suspension dives and the rear lifts during braking because the vehicle's center of mass is above the ground. When you're braking the acceleration force acts upon of vehicle's center of mass, while the braking force from the wheels acts at the ground. Because of this, there is a resultant torque that acts on the body of the vehicle and causes it to "dive." Technologies dealing with reducing braking dive tend to have adjustable rate shock absorbers/springs and accelerometers.

The back brakes on any vehicle are pretty week. They do almost nothing.

Just because the rear brakes on a car aren't as strong as the front, doesn't mean they do nothing. If a wheel is touching the ground, it can impart a braking force on the road.

I also drove a motorcycle for a while and I know from that, that the only way to stop is to hit the front brake. The back brake only made the back end swirve out if you hit that one by itself.

This isn't a particularly useful comparison, but motorcycle driver's training states that in an emergency stop you should brake using both the front and rear brakes.

On a car, the rear brakes DO help a car stop faster, and it is important to make sure they do not lock up in an emergency stop because if the rear brakes lock up the rear end of the vehicle will want to slide out (especially if the car is turning while braking).

I contend that you could go and cut your rear brakes right out of the loop and nothing would happen.

Your vehicle would stop slower. Its obvious you have a poor understanding of vehicle dynamics in braking.

 

[brewnog]

Mech Engineer's comments regarding the importance of rear brakes are correct.

Although rear brakes don't impart as much of a force against motion as the front brakes, around 30% of braking force in a typical situation is still provided by the rear brakes. However, braking on four wheels is clearly also important from a vehicle stability perspective, and for this reason it's important that the proportioning device is functional.

It's worth mentioning that the primary function of ABS is not to stop a vehicle more quickly, but to enhance directional control of the vehicle during emergency braking. Steering (during evasive manoeuvres) under extreme braking is drastically improved with ABS compared against a locked wheel, particularly in wet or greasy conditions.

 

[mtworkowski@o]

The brake calipers are mounted to the steering knuckle, and reaction forces from them being used are taken by the knuckle. They aren't mounted to the suspension, so what side of the rotor they are on has no bearing on the braking characteristics of the vehicle, it is only an engineering consideration based on the location of things like steering components.

The front suspension dives and the rear lifts during braking because the vehicle's center of mass is above the ground. When you're braking the acceleration force acts upon of vehicle's center of mass, while the braking force from the wheels acts at the ground. Because of this, there is a resultant torque that acts on the body of the vehicle and causes it to "dive." Technologies dealing with reducing braking dive tend to have adjustable rate shock absorbers/springs and accelerometers.



Just because the rear brakes on a car aren't as strong as the front, doesn't mean they do nothing. If a wheel is touching the ground, it can impart a braking force on the road.



This isn't a particularly useful comparison, but motorcycle driver's training states that in an emergency stop you should brake using both the front and rear brakes.

On a car, the rear brakes DO help a car stop faster, and it is important to make sure they do not lock up in an emergency stop because if the rear brakes lock up the rear end of the vehicle will want to slide out (especially if the car is turning while braking).



Your vehicle would stop slower. "Its obvious you have a poor understanding of vehicle dynamics in braking."

Thank you both for clearing that up for me. I have learned a lot on this forum. The one thing I am having trouble with is that when the rear ABS turns on it extends the braking distance too much. If I back off on the pedal a small amount then the ABS shuts off and the truck comes to a abrupt stop. That's an important statement and I don't make it lightly. Brewnog refers to this when he says that ABS does not shorten braking distance. My thought is that in a panic stop, I'm not steering around something. I'm hitting the brakes fairly hard. I think they're dangerous.

 

[brewnog]

Sounds to me as though there's a fault. While ABS does not inherently reduce braking distance, it generally does; and it's better than most drivers.

 

[mtworkowski@o]

Pulled fuse today. No speedo and annoying little lites on inst. panel. Don't think it's a good thing to do. But the brakes work much better. There's almost no limit to how hard you can apply them. I should check with the dealer, but I never believe what they tell me and they usually screw up something. That's why I presented the problem here.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Based on your symptoms and the fact that you have only rear-wheel ABS, it is my suspicion that your rear brake proportioning valve is adjusted incorrectly. If your proportioning valve isn't working correctly and is sending to much brake pressure to the rear wheels, it is possible the ABS system will unintentionally limit the braking force to your front wheels as well. I would suggest having your proportioning valve inspected by either the dealer or a reputable shop.

 

[Danger]

I hated ABS until W bought our (her ) Grand Am a few months ago. They're almost unnoticeable under normal conditions, as opposed to that 'chattering' crap that the earlier systems inflicted. That just drove me *******
The only thing that bothers me about it now is that it still stands as a buffer between me and the vehicle. As with an aeroplane, I like to wear a car as an extension of my body. Every computerized interception of that symbiosis is irritating. Sometimes, I want my brakes to lock. A silicon 'brain' getting in the way of that is a pain in the ass.

edit: Evo, the censor still isn't working.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Modern ABS systems will pulse the pressure to slipping wheels individually, rather than the entire system (or sometimes both front wheels individually and the rear wheels together). In this way if the entire system is linked in one single ABS actuator, your stopping distance is essentially limited by your lowest traction wheel, where as 4-way individual system ensures all wheels are applying maximum force to the road.

 

[TVP45]

Did you do what many pickup drivers do and put different tires on the rear? Even a small difference really screws up ABS.

 

[mtworkowski@o]

Based on your symptoms and the fact that you have only rear-wheel ABS, it is my suspicion that your rear brake proportioning valve is adjusted incorrectly. If your proportioning valve isn't working correctly and is sending to much brake pressure to the rear wheels, it is possible the ABS system will unintentionally limit the braking force to your front wheels as well. I would suggest having your proportioning valve inspected by either the dealer or a reputable shop.

If the P valve is adjusted wrong would the brakes act so well with the ABS fuse pulled?

 

[mtworkowski@o]

I hated ABS until W bought our (her ) Grand Am a few months ago. They're almost unnoticeable under normal conditions, as opposed to that 'chattering' crap that the earlier systems inflicted. That just drove me apegarbage.
The only thing that bothers me about it now is that it still stands as a buffer between me and the vehicle. As with an aeroplane, I like to wear a car as an extension of my body. Every computerized interception of that symbiosis is irritating. Sometimes, I want my brakes to lock. A silicon 'brain' getting in the way of that is a pain in the ass.

edit: Evo, the censor still isn't working.

As a rule I would rather have a computer take care of the work. I have a lot of faith in their ability to hash out the variables at lightning speed. This, suspect, is just bad design...but let's see.

 

[mtworkowski@o]

Did you do what many pickup drivers do and put different tires on the rear? Even a small difference really screws up ABS.

Tires identical

 

[TVP45]

Then there's nothing else to do but call the Car Talk guys.

 

[Danger]

As a rule I would rather have a computer take care of the work. I have a lot of faith in their ability to hash out the variables at lightning speed.

I can fully understand that, but remember that I started driving before seatbelts were available as an option. Some of we old folks still like to do things for ourselves, and in some cases can do it better than a computer. I've been in a couple of situations where locking my brakes saved my life. I'm not sure that I would have died if a computer had been driving, but I know that I didn't because I had control.

 

[mtworkowski@o]

Danger,
Did you think you were talking to a kid? I'm up there too. Also, I'm not thinking that locked up brakes are the way to stop fast. But I think ABS could be the worst. I opt for air bags on the front bumper and a complete rethink on the ABS deal. Suspension as a whole is interesting to me. I think basically It's from the stone age. The shock absorber has to be the most misunderstood thing in the world. The whole thing is quite interesting.

 

[mtworkowski@o]

Then there's nothing else to do but call the Car Talk guys.

You know, that's a good idea. I listen to those maniacs every Saturday. I should make them work for a living. Thank you TVP45.

 

[Danger]

Danger,
Did you think you were talking to a kid?.

No offense intended, pal; most people on this site are much younger, and something about your posts indicated that you were in that group. So if you happen to have a picture that isn't engraved on a stone tablet, how about you post it in the Users Photos thread so I know what I'm dealing with?

 

[mtworkowski@o]

No offense intended, pal; most people on this site are much younger, and something about your posts indicated that you were in that group. So if you happen to have a picture that isn't engraved on a stone tablet, how about you post it in the Users Photos thread so I know what I'm dealing with?

this is the best picture I could find. I hope it's OK.

 

[TVP45]

You know, that's a good idea. I listen to those maniacs every Saturday. I should make them work for a living. Thank you TVP45.

BTW, they're coming to PBS TV soon. I missed the exact date since the ad featured a huge mound of maggots and Tom seemed to be comparing Ray to the maggots? Only Click and Clack would think of doing that.

 

[russ_watters]

I can fully understand that, but remember that I started driving before seatbelts were available as an option. Some of we old folks still like to do things for ourselves, and in some cases can do it better than a computer. I've been in a couple of situations where locking my brakes saved my life. I'm not sure that I would have died if a computer had been driving, but I know that I didn't because I had control.

I was in an accident where I rear-ended someone in the rain. ABS probably would have helped prevent it, as I tried unsuccessfully to swerve around the other car, with my locked-up wheels.

 

[Danger]

I agree that ABS is good for a situation where maximum stopping effectiveness (threshold braking) is desired. When I find the lock-up desirable is during some extreme manoeuvring.