Anyone considering a career as a patent attorney?

AI Thread Summary
Patent law is a viable career option for scientists, offering a blend of legal and technical work. Daily tasks include drafting patent applications, managing litigation, and negotiating settlements, with typical work hours around 35 per week. Earnings for patent attorneys can range from $60,000 to $200,000 annually, heavily influenced by firm size and location. A technical degree is necessary to take the patent bar exam, with fields like electrical and mechanical engineering being in high demand. Pursuing a PhD in chemistry or biology can enhance job prospects in patent law, particularly in pharmaceuticals and biotech.
  • #251
I have a thesis Masters in Pharmacology (4 publications) with 2 years of industry experience ( Pfizer ). I am planning to get a JD degree. I read everywhere that a phd is needed for practicing as patent attorney in biolofy field. Would I be marketable without a phd, considering my background?
 
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  • #252
What is the outlook as a science advisor or patent agent for a physics masters degree graduate with several years professional experience? Is it grim?
How do you recommend I go about getting my foot in the door in patent law?
Are billable hours counted as a science advisor?

Thank you!
 
  • #253
thehiddenphysicist said:
What is the outlook as a science advisor or patent agent for a physics masters degree graduate with several years professional experience? Is it grim?
How do you recommend I go about getting my foot in the door in patent law?
Are billable hours counted as a science advisor?

Thank you!
1) Probably not very high in demand but check your local job boards and postings. Scientific advisers are most common in super high tech areas (advanced EE, advanced chemistry, pharma), not sure if general physics would fall into that territory but it depends on your area of expertise. It's not that common of a position to be honest but does exist in places where there is a need. It's a hard career to directly pursue because the need is so specialized. I think most scientific advisers that work in the patent field "fell into" their job based on scenarios difficult to replicate.
2) Apply for a job as an Examiner with the USPTO
3) If you work at a law firm, yes. If you work at a company, no.
 
  • #254
thehiddenphysicist said:
What is the outlook as a science advisor or patent agent for a physics masters degree graduate with several years professional experience? Is it grim?
How do you recommend I go about getting my foot in the door in patent law?
Are billable hours counted as a science advisor?

Thank you!
I’m a PhD physicist who first worked in industrial R&D for 20+ yrs and then worked as a patent agent in a law firm for 8+ yrs.

(a) If you are looking for a position in a law firm, the term “scientific advisor” is not commonly used. If you are doing a keyword search for job posts, “technical specialist” is most common; alternatively, “technical advisor”, “technology specialist”, or “technology advisor”. I’ll use the term “technical specialist”.

(b) An “MS Physics with several years professional experience” does not by itself place you in a strong position for an entry-level technical specialist position in a law firm. A PhD Physics, better yet a PhD Physics with 5+ yrs industry experience, places you in a much stronger position.

(c) With niche exceptions (discussed below), a physics degree is somewhat borderline for law firms. Strongest demand right now is for EE, CS, and CE (life sciences have different requirements that I won’t address here). Most posts will be adamant that a degree in EE, CS, or CE is required (and HR will screen your resume for one of these degrees; if they don’t see it listed, they will simply chuck your resume). A few will say that a degree in physics with a strong background in EE or computers will also be considered.

(d) Again, with exceptions, technical specialists primarily have PhDs. In order to become a patent agent or patent attorney, you must have at least a bachelor’s degree in a science or engineering major recognized by the USPTO (or equivalent training). A master’s degree doesn’t give you much distinction over what the run-of-the-mill patent agent or patent attorney can tackle from a technical perspective. But, if the inventor is a PhD doing complex R&D, the run-of-the-mill patent agent or patent attorney can be totally befuddled by the technology; hence the need for PhD technical specialists. Especially if a firm has as clients R&D labs led by PhD scientists and engineers, having PhD technical specialists on roll can be a big plus.

(e) There are niches for physicists. For example, if you’re a geophysicist, and the firm has clients in oil exploration or earthquake detection, you’ve a shot. If you’re a radiation physicist, and the firm has clients in medical imaging, you’ve a shot. If you’re a semiconductor physicist, and the firm has clients in semiconductor devices or fabrication, you’ve a shot.

(f) At one time, many large corporations in the US had extensive in-house patent departments. The practice (which tends to oscillate) has been heavily towards downsizing in-house patent departments and outsourcing the work to law firms. Some of the in-house patent attorneys who were downsized started small firms of their own specializing in their previous specialties; often with their previous employers now as clients.

(g) So, for you, a lot depends on how many years and in what specialty “several years of professional experience” refers to. As usual, it’s a matter of supply and demand. You’re competing against freshly minted PhDs who want to switch careers for whatever reason and also competing against experienced PhDs who have been downsized and are looking for a career alternative.

(h) Did you work for a large company that had an internal patent department? If so, ask the patent attorneys there for referrals to potential openings among their buddies. Some personal connection is your best bet.

(i) Passing the patent bar, and looking for a position as a patent agent, probably would not improve your opportunities much. Training a newbie from scratch costs a lot of time and money for a firm, so you need to have something special to offer (or a special personal connection to someone who's willing to give you a break).

<<Edit to add>>

(j) Are you fluent in a foreign language? There are US firms that focus on US applications for foreign clients. I know a PhD physicist who got his foot in the door as a patent agent because he's fluent in German; he got a job with a US firm that has a lot of German clients. Similarly, another guy who's fluent in Japanese got a job with a firm that has a lot of Japanese clients. Don't overlook this avenue.
 
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  • #255
I graduated last spring with a bachelors in plastics engineering technology. I am taking the year off to work full time at a medical device manufacture, and to study for the LSAT. I am wondering if I will run into any issues trying to resister for the patent bar exam with an engineering technologies degree. Will I have to file under category B, option 4 when applying?
 
  • #256
Lstep31 said:
I graduated last spring with a bachelors in plastics engineering technology. I am taking the year off to work full time at a medical device manufacture, and to study for the LSAT. I am wondering if I will run into any issues trying to resister for the patent bar exam with an engineering technologies degree. Will I have to file under category B, option 4 when applying?

Neither "plastics engineering technology" or "engineering technology" is listed as a Cat A degree in the OED GRB. If you qualify under Cat B, Option 4, then that would be the most expedient path.
 
  • #257
Have you ever heard of anyone having difficulties applying to the patent bar exam with an engineering technologies degree when compared to a straight engineering degree?
 
  • #258
Lstep31 said:
Have you ever heard of anyone having difficulties applying to the patent bar exam with an engineering technologies degree when compared to a straight engineering degree?
I'm going to take a guess at what you are really asking: whether an engineering technologies degree instead of an engineering degree will qualify you under Cat A. If so, that is the wrong question. It's not a matter of engineering technology vs. engineering in general, it's a matter of the specific degree. If you check the Cat A listing, you will find several technology degrees listed (such as electronics technology and marine technology). "Plastics engineering technology" is not listed. But neither is "plastics engineering". So it's irrelevant whether your degree is in "plastics engineering technology" or "plastics engineering". Neither one is listed under Cat A.

If you wish, you can call OED and ask whether you will qualify under Cat A. The first answer will probably be "no", because they will simply look up the Cat A listing and not find your degree there. If you ask for further consideration, be aware that nothing said over the phone is binding. The only way to be sure is to actually submit an application with a $240 fee ($40 application fee plus $200 exam fee). If you do not qualify, you're out the $40, but the $200 is refunded. If you do qualify, however, you have only 90 days in which to take the exam. If you haven't prepared, that 90 days will probably lapse, and you will need to reapply. But in the overall scheme of things $240 is not a huge amount to find out in advance whether you qualify under Cat A or need to submit the additional paperwork to qualify under Cat B. Alternatively, if you are confident that you qualify under Cat B, then apply under Cat B. I do realize that a lot more paperwork is involved, and I assume you're trying to avoid that.
 
  • #259
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer our questions!
I'm a ChemE undergrad who will graduate in the upcoming year. I'm planning on taking the year off to get work experience, write the lsat and save up for law school. My question is: what kind of jobs should I aim for to improve my candidacy as a patent attorney at a large law firm? Also, how much experience (in number of years would you recommend)?
I should note, in my undergrad experience, I've gotten work experience in oil/gas, electrical engineering, manufacturing, environmental policy and software project management. Based on your knowledge of the legal industry, where is the biggest demand, and where would a ChemE degree be best served?
 
  • #260
Apologies for not contributing to the topic, but is it bad that when I read the title of this thread, I thought a joke was being made about Albert Einstein?
 
  • #261
Jennanana said:
Apologies for not contributing to the topic, but is it bad that when I read the title of this thread, I thought a joke was being made about Albert Einstein?
[Minor nitpick: Einstein worked as a patent examiner.] No, not really. When I've talked to PhD physicists about a career in patents (various aspects), the reaction often has been, "But that's so beneath what I've been doing." My usual quip is, "Hey, it wasn't beneath Albert Einstein!"
 
  • #262
If you could specialize in defending clients against software patents, and work to invalidate existing software patents, that would be a very good thing. But the best thing would be to terminate the software patent system. There should be no software patents, in my opinion.
 
  • #265
Astronuc said:
The Supreme Court could fundamentally change America's broken patent system
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tc-heartland-v-kraft-foods-125940843.html

Aspiring patent and IP attorneys should pay attention.

The headline of that article is a gross overstatement. Note that the pending case is limited to the narrow issue of venue in patent litigation; main effect will be on patent trolls and counsel who represent such trolls. Scientists and engineers on this forum who are contemplating a career switch to IP will likely focus on patent prosecution to leverage their technical expertise. This pending case will not directly affect patent prosecution.
 
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  • #266
Greg Bernhardt said:
My sister said read this instead of the yahoo article
https://cdn.patentlyo.com/media/2017/03/Janicke.2017.Venue_.pdf
Definitely a more reasoned article, but it is written for patent professionals. The yahoo article provides more background for general readers who are not patent professionals, but it is riddled with hyperbole.
 
  • #267
Hi! I read through the thread and all the information is very helpful, thanks for the detailed explanation.
I'm not sure if more questions are to be answered, but I have a question about my career path: currently I'm doing a BS in electrical engineering, and I'm thinking about getting a masters in EE before moving on to a law career potentially. Do the thesis master and the non-thesis master make a difference? Non-thesis master is faster to complete so it's nice time-wise, but as I searched online there are certain advantages about getting extra research experience. I'm just not sure how the law profession looks at the extra research background offered in a thesis master. Thanks!
 
  • #268
I expect that the difference will not be fully appreciated in the legal profession (i.e. it probably won't make any practical difference either way regarding employment or prestige in the industry).
 
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  • #269
berned_you said:
I expect that the difference will not be fully appreciated in the legal profession (i.e. it probably won't make any practical difference either way regarding employment or prestige in the industry).
Basically agree. In the OP's situation, a master's thesis, with one exception, would not give him an edge in landing a job with a firm or give him an advantage in prosecution. The exception, which is highly unlikely, is if he completes his thesis, goes off to law school, and then interviews with a firm that just happens to have a major client active in the particular specialty in which he did his thesis.

The following research experience will be advantageous: (a) PhD, which will allow you to tackle more technically complex inventions than the ones that the majority of patent attorneys can handle, and (b) industrial R&D, but a min of 3 yrs, preferably 5 yrs, which will allow you to interact with inventors on their own terms; especially if you gain experience as an inventor yourself. But note: I do not recommend that you gain experience in (a) or (b) specifically to further your career as a patent attorney. It's just that if you have that experience and then switch careers to patent attorney, you can leverage that experience.

That said, if you are on the fence, and not certain you will go to law school, a master's thesis will give you valuable experience should you decide to go into industry instead. How much more time and $ would be needed?
 
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  • #270
berned_you said:
I expect that the difference will not be fully appreciated in the legal profession (i.e. it probably won't make any practical difference either way regarding employment or prestige in the industry).
Thanks!
CrysPhys said:
Basically agree. In the OP's situation, a master's thesis, with one exception, would not give him an edge in landing a job with a firm or give him an advantage in prosecution. The exception, which is highly unlikely, is if he completes his thesis, goes off to law school, and then interviews with a firm that just happens to have a major client active in the particular specialty in which he did his thesis.

The following research experience will be advantageous: (a) PhD, which will allow you to tackle more technically complex inventions than the ones that the majority of patent attorneys can handle, and (b) industrial R&D, but a min of 3 yrs, preferably 5 yrs, which will allow you to interact with inventors on their own terms; especially if you gain experience as an inventor yourself. But note: I do not recommend that you gain experience in (a) or (b) specifically to further your career as a patent attorney. It's just that if you have that experience and then switch careers to patent attorney, you can leverage that experience.

That said, if you are on the fence, and not certain you will go to law school, a master's thesis will give you valuable experience should you decide to go into industry instead. How much more time and $ would be needed?

Thanks! Very helpful information to get before I actually apply to anywhere. I'm about to be a senior undergrad in the fall, so it's somewhat late for me to think about this now, but my school is very engineering-oriented and I always thought that I'd get a PhD in EE. Now I'm thinking that doing research is not the right thing for me and I'm looking at other options. I could finish a non-thesis master in Spring 2019, and a thesis master would be one, if not two, years longer, so the non-thesis choice is really efficient.
My main struggle is that although the law career sounds very enticing and I like its features as others describe it to me, I have no real experience in law, so I feel hesitant to choose my path base on impressions. (After I went into labs and did research I was then able to find that I don't actually enjoy it.) So a thesis master is more "secure" in the sense that I may still step back to engineering.
 
  • #271
langendourff said:
My main struggle is that although the law career sounds very enticing and I like its features as others describe it to me, I have no real experience in law, so I feel hesitant to choose my path base on impressions. (After I went into labs and did research I was then able to find that I don't actually enjoy it.)
If that's the case, tred carefully. Life in a law firm is a lot different from life in an industrial R&D lab. Given the time and $ to pursue a law career, you should have a good idea of what life would be like. Check if your university has an intellectual property and technology transfer department. If so, talk to someone there and get referrals to patent attorneys that the university engages to do its work. Then talk to several patent attorneys to get a good notion of what daily life in a firm is like. If any are local, try to arrange for an actual meeting.
 
  • #272
CrysPhys said:
If that's the case, tred carefully. Life in a law firm is a lot different from life in an industrial R&D lab. Given the time and $ to pursue a law career, you should have a good idea of what life would be like. Check if your university has an intellectual property and technology transfer department. If so, talk to someone there and get referrals to patent attorneys that the university engages to do its work. Then talk to several patent attorneys to get a good notion of what daily life in a firm is like. If any are local, try to arrange for an actual meeting.

ETA: Here's an alternative option to decide whether you would thrive (or at least survive) in a law firm environment, without going to law school. Once you have received your BSEE, you can sit for the patent bar exam and apply for a position as a patent agent in a patent law firm. As a patent agent, you can do only patent prosecution, not patent litigation. But with some exceptions, the daily patent prosecution tasks you do as a patent agent are the same you would do as a patent attorney. Try it out for two years. If you like it, then go to law school (some large firms will even subsidize part time law school). If you don't, then you would have found out that engineering isn't so bad in comparison, and go find an engineering job (I don't think a 2 yr gap after a MS will hurt that much in your case). Or, you can decide to skip law school and engineering, and stay a patent agent. I typically do not recommend a patent agent position as an ultimate career goal for someone young and straight out of school, but who knows (and it's your choice at that point)?

One timeline to do this is to study for the patent bar after graduation with your BS and take the exam before your MS program starts (you'll probably be too busy once your MS program is under way). Then apply for a patent agent position upon completion of your MS. Otherwise, study for the patent bar and take the patent bar after you complete your MS.
 
  • #273
CrysPhys said:
ETA: Here's an alternative option to decide whether you would thrive (or at least survive) in a law firm environment, without going to law school. Once you have received your BSEE, you can sit for the patent bar exam and apply for a position as a patent agent in a patent law firm. As a patent agent, you can do only patent prosecution, not patent litigation. But with some exceptions, the daily patent prosecution tasks you do as a patent agent are the same you would do as a patent attorney. Try it out for two years. If you like it, then go to law school (some large firms will even subsidize part time law school). If you don't, then you would have found out that engineering isn't so bad in comparison, and go find an engineering job (I don't think a 2 yr gap after a MS will hurt that much in your case). Or, you can decide to skip law school and engineering, and stay a patent agent. I typically do not recommend a patent agent position as an ultimate career goal for someone young and straight out of school, but who knows (and it's your choice at that point)?

One timeline to do this is to study for the patent bar after graduation with your BS and take the exam before your MS program starts (you'll probably be too busy once your MS program is under way). Then apply for a patent agent position upon completion of your MS. Otherwise, study for the patent bar and take the patent bar after you complete your MS.

Thanks for the amazing advice! I'm thinking about something similar today, and this sounds more comfortable than going to a JD straight after my MS. I'm considering taking the LSAT before I finish BSEE, spend two-three years max in MS, one year as a patent agent (I checked that this year there is a position that accepts fresh undergrad/master student and sponsors patent bar, hopefully situations would remain similar in a few years), then apply to JD if I were still interested at that time. So at this point my only work is to apply to grad school and maintain my GPA and take the LSAT and at least look at the patent bar - doesn't sound too bad.
 
  • #274
langendourff said:
Thanks for the amazing advice! I'm thinking about something similar today, and this sounds more comfortable than going to a JD straight after my MS. I'm considering taking the LSAT before I finish BSEE, spend two-three years max in MS, one year as a patent agent (I checked that this year there is a position that accepts fresh undergrad/master student and sponsors patent bar, hopefully situations would remain similar in a few years), then apply to JD if I were still interested at that time. So at this point my only work is to apply to grad school and maintain my GPA and take the LSAT and at least look at the patent bar - doesn't sound too bad.
Sounds like a great plan. Good luck to you.
 
  • #275
berned_you said:
Chem essentially requires and advanced degree (MS or phd). Law school is a JD and don't bother with a LLM.

Thank you so very much for taking your time to put this information out there.

I have my Bachelor's in Chemistry (General Chemistry), and am definitely interested in becoming a Patent Attorney. I've just taken my LSAT, and I was considering a Master's (MS) in Pharmaceutical Nanotechnology before Law school. Would that be a good idea, given the interest in advance degrees for biotech Patent attorneys' job prospects? I also speak French and Japanese, do you know if that is any advantage? I am very willing to work internationally in the future.
 
  • #276
Nicole23 said:
Thank you so very much for taking your time to put this information out there.

I have my Bachelor's in Chemistry (General Chemistry), and am definitely interested in becoming a Patent Attorney. I've just taken my LSAT, and I was considering a Master's (MS) in Pharmaceutical Nanotechnology before Law school. Would that be a good idea, given the interest in advance degrees for biotech Patent attorneys' job prospects? I also speak French and Japanese, do you know if that is any advantage? I am very willing to work internationally in the future.

Since I’m a patent agent with a physics PhD, and not a patent attorney with a chem MS, I can’t address your question directly from first-hand knowledge. But, since you have not received any answer at all, here’s the best info I can provide.

(1) An MS in Pharmaceutical Nanotechnology, I assume, is a fairly new degree, so it’s not clear how much in demand it is for law firms. You’d probably need to luck out; i.e., interview with a firm who has major clients in the field of pharmaceutical nanotechnology.

(2) No one can predict what the job market will be in 4+ yrs from now. But for the last several years, the competition for new patent attorneys with a chemistry background has been pretty tough. It is possible to a get a slot with an MS, but you are competing with PhDs. Big Pharma has been (and still is) consolidating, and government grant money has been tight. So PhDs have been considering alternative careers ... including patent law.

(3) If you are fluent in French and Japanese, it could help if a firm has major French or Japanese clients. Note: statistically, the European country with the most patent applications is Germany. So German would be more helpful; but again, you could luck out if a firm has a major French client. A lot of applications do come out of Japan. But I’m mainly familiar with the electronics, telcom, and semiconductor companies; I don’t know about chem companies and pharmas. You mentioned that you would be willing to work internationally in the future. There are overseas firms that hire US patent attorneys. However, they typically want someone with 5+ yrs experience. So you still would initially need to land a position in a US firm.

(4) As I recommended to another poster, you should start networking early. If your university has an intellectual property and technology transfer (IP & TT) dept, visit them and ask for the names of outside counsel (patent attorneys) who handle their patent work. Then talk to them over the phone (or in person if possible) to discuss your plans. If you go for an MS, you might consider part-time work (even as a volunteer) in the IP & TT dept just for the networking opportunity ... personal connections really help in this business.
 
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  • #277
CrysPhys said:
Since I’m a patent agent with a physics PhD, and not a patent attorney with a chem MS, I can’t address your question directly from first-hand knowledge. But, since you have not received any answer at all, here’s the best info I can provide.

(1) An MS in Pharmaceutical Nanotechnology, I assume, is a fairly new degree, so it’s not clear how much in demand it is for law firms. You’d probably need to luck out; i.e., interview with a firm who has major clients in the field of pharmaceutical nanotechnology.

(2) No one can predict what the job market will be in 4+ yrs from now. But for the last several years, the competition for new patent attorneys with a chemistry background has been pretty tough. It is possible to a get a slot with an MS, but you are competing with PhDs. Big Pharma has been (and still is) consolidating, and government grant money has been tight. So PhDs have been considering alternative careers ... including patent law.

(3) If you are fluent in French and Japanese, it could help if a firm has major French or Japanese clients. Note: statistically, the European country with the most patent applications is Germany. So German would be more helpful; but again, you could luck out if a firm has a major French client. A lot of applications do come out of Japan. But I’m mainly familiar with the electronics, telcom, and semiconductor companies; I don’t know about chem companies and pharmas. You mentioned that you would be willing to work internationally in the future. There are overseas firms that hire US patent attorneys. However, they typically want someone with 5+ yrs experience. So you still would initially need to land a position in a US firm.

(4) As I recommended to another poster, you should start networking early. If your university has an intellectual property and technology transfer (IP & TT) dept, visit them and ask for the names of outside counsel (patent attorneys) who handle their patent work. Then talk to them over the phone (or in person if possible) to discuss your plans. If you go for an MS, you might consider part-time work (even as a volunteer) in the IP & TT dept just for the networking opportunity ... personal connections really help in this business.

Thank you very much, I agree with everything you said. You are correct, the pharmaceutical nanotechnology Master's is indeed a new/recent degree. I am still doing my research and deciding on it. That program has their own Patent Attorney on staff, and I intended to try to speak with her for these exact reasons. I too noticed competition in the Chemistry field is high, which is why I'm looking to best bolster my chances and marketable skills. I'm sure I could learn German as well. My college is pretty successful with acquiring patents via their researchers, so I will definitely be aware of the necessity of networking and your suggestions. This thread has also made me aware of the good experience that can be gained from being a patent agent, and I appreciate that. Thank you!
 
  • #278
I've interned at a patent firm and I found the work mentally challenging and very demanding. The partner I worked under stayed in office 10-11 hrs, six days a week, barely taking a lunch break. Is this typically to be expected in the IP career path, and does it get easier? One would expect senior associates to work less as they move into managerial positions... any ideas if litigation or examiner positions are less demanding? Alternatively, I wonder if senior patent prosecutors eventually set their own small practice, much like you see with dentistry?
 
  • #279
mcmath said:
I've interned at a patent firm and I found the work mentally challenging and very demanding. The partner I worked under stayed in office 10-11 hrs, six days a week, barely taking a lunch break. Is this typically to be expected in the IP career path, and does it get easier? One would expect senior associates to work less as they move into managerial positions... any ideas if litigation or examiner positions are less demanding? Alternatively, I wonder if senior patent prosecutors eventually set their own small practice, much like you see with dentistry?

(I) I will address only patent prosecution, since I have direct experience with that. [I have a good notion of workloads of litigators and examiners, but it's second-hand.] Here’s how to get a first-order approximation of your workload. Assume 4 weeks off for personal time (e.g., vacations, holidays, personal days, and sick days); so you work 48 wks/yr. On a daily basis, you need to account for your hours, which fall roughly into the following buckets (simplified for ease of discussion):

(a) Client-related, billable hrs. E.g., time spent on new applications and responses to office actions. This time, in principle, is capable of being billed to a client. Because of price caps or flat-rate charges, however, the actual amount billed to a client may be less. The actual billed time is literally your bread-and-butter. [Caveat: Some firms use “billable” and “billed” in the opposite sense to that used here.]

(b) Client-related, non-billable hrs. E.g., time spent in initial discussions with potential new clients and travel time to-and-from existing clients are, in general, non-billable for prosecution.

(c) Firm-related, essential. This refers, e.g., to filling out time sheets, billing reconciliation, reading and responding to e-mail, organizing and reviewing your docket, organizing your files, mandatory docket reviews with your managing partner or senior associate, mandatory firm meetings, and mandatory continuing education.

(d) Firm-related, non-essential. This refers, e.g., to serving on diversity committees and quality-of-life committees, on-campus recruitment and job fairs, writing papers, giving presentations, pro-bono work, courting new clients, and schmoozing with existing clients.

(e) Personal. This refers, e.g., to lunch, coffee, and bathroom breaks ... and time spent schmoozing with colleagues.

Firms have various compensation schemes. A common one is a set salary for a minimum number of billable or billed hours plus a bonus for hours in excess of the required minimum (up to a max cap).

A moderate minimum requirement, e.g., is 1800 billable hrs/yr. Averaged out over 48 wks, that’s 37.5 billable hrs/wk (7.5 billable hrs/day, assuming a 5-day work wk). Now, again assuming a 5-day work week, tack on ~1 – 2 hrs/day for non-billable client and essential firm-related time and ~1 – 1.5 hrs/day for personal time. So you come up with a total base time at the office of ~9.5 – 11 hrs/day for a 5-day work wk.

A heavier minimum requirement is 2000 billable hrs/yr; with some firms even higher. And remember, these are minimum requirements. If you’re an ambitious associate bucking for partner, you need to consistently and substantially exceed your minimums ... and take on non-essential firm-related work.

(II) I haven’t a clue what you mean by “One would expect senior associates to work less as they move into managerial positions ...” In some firms, some senior associates will manage the work of junior associates. Insofar as the time falls under the bucket of “client-related, billable”, it is credited towards their billable-hours total. Insofar as the time is spent answering general questions, that time is not credited. The distribution of work activities may change for a senior associate, but they don’t work fewer hours. Similarly, if you become a partner, the compensation scheme changes, and the distribution of work activities changes, but you don’t work fewer hours.

(III) Some experienced prosecutors do open their own firms. The hours are more flexible, obviously, but the workload is as heavy, or, more likely, even heavier, since they have more responsibilities.

(IV) If you want to trade off $$ for more personal time, look at smaller firms. They are usually more flexible in negotiating hours. And since there is typically no partnership track, there’s no pressure to load on extra duties to prove you’re partner material. But if you're expecting a 9 - 5 job, inclusive of lunch and breaks, 5 days/wk, patent prosecution is not the job for you.
 
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  • #280
PhD in Chemical Engineering here.

1. How important is the PhD thesis topic (Both for school and job prospects)?
  • I am working in a field that can be most concisely described as Physical Chemistry. Will prospective employers see my thesis work as a disadvantage compared to those who are specialized in, say, biotechnology?
2. I envision myself working as a policymaker for scientific causes (e.g. climate change, CRISPR).
  • Is going to law school the most efficient route? Is IP Law an efficient route?
  • How easy is it to transition careers from IP Law to other careers?
3. Follow-up question to 2. Based on my interests, which law school do you think is the best fit for me?
4. Which Asian languages can offer a competitive edge for IP lawyers?
5. Do lawyers in academia enjoy a comparable salary to those in the private sector?
6. Is it worth going to law school only if you get into a top-tier program?
 
  • #281
I thought of one more question :wink:

7. How can I find out if I have a talent for law besides going to law school?
 
  • #282
Roark said:
I thought of one more question :wink:

7. How can I find out if I have a talent for law besides going to law school?
If you want to find out whether specifically patent prosecution (not law in general) is right for you, you can apply for a position as a technical specialist at a law firm. Alternatively, you can pass the patent bar exam and apply for a position as a patent agent. I don't know what the demand for a PhD in Chem Eng right now is though; you'll need to check with some firms.
 
  • #283
Roark said:
1. How important is the PhD thesis topic (Both for school and job prospects)?
  • I am working in a field that can be most concisely described as Physical Chemistry. Will prospective employers see my thesis work as a disadvantage compared to those who are specialized in, say, biotechnology?
Can address only job prospects (I never went to law school). Your specific PhD thesis topic per se is not important. Law firms first screen by field and degree. Note that fields such as chem eng and chem are broad and overlap, but often the first screening is with a HR software filter. If the posting is for a PhD in chemistry only [rather than chemistry or chemical engineering], your PhD in chemical engineering might not get through. You then need a special in (e.g., a personal referral to a hiring partner) for you to bypass the HR software filter and explain why, even though your degree is chem eng, you still qualify for the position. Assuming you get by the first hurdle, the next is a broad match between your research experience and the industry sectors of the firms clients: if the clients are in the oil and gas industry, and your research was related to oil and gas, then that's a good match; if the clients are in the semiconductor industry, and your research was related to semiconductor processing, then that's a good match. If you don't have a good match, whether you still get hired or not will depend on the qualifications of the other competing applicants and how quickly the firm needs to fill the position.

Roark said:
4. Which Asian languages can offer a competitive edge for IP lawyers?
The usual suspects: Mandarin, Japanese, and Korean. Chem Eng is not my field though, and I don't know how advantageous knowledge of those languages are for Chem Eng specifically. For fields such as semiconductors, telcom, data comm, and computers, I have seen postings in which fluency in at least one of those languages is required.
 
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  • #284
CrysPhys said:
If you want to find out whether specifically patent prosecution (not law in general) is right for you, you can apply for a position as a technical specialist at a law firm. Alternatively, you can pass the patent bar exam and apply for a position as a patent agent. I don't know what the demand for a PhD in Chem Eng right now is though; you'll need to check with some firms.

What about other roles like paralegals?

I read that law firms and tech companies will help employees take the Patent Bar. I hear contrasting opinions on law school though - some say employers don't encourage pursuing a law degree while some say that employers will go as far as funding law school. What is your perspective?

Thanks for answering my questions :smile:.
 
  • #285
Roark said:
What about other roles like paralegals?

I read that law firms and tech companies will help employees take the Patent Bar. I hear contrasting opinions on law school though - some say employers don't encourage pursuing a law degree while some say that employers will go as far as funding law school. What is your perspective?

Thanks for answering my questions :smile:.

1. You definitely do not want to apply for a paralegal position.

(a) The responsibilities of paralegals vary with the firm and with the branch of law. But, in general, paralegals serve an administrative support role, one step up from legal secretaries. In patent prosecution specifically, they do not perform any substantive technical function: they do not prepare applications and they do not respond to office actions. They perform various functions such as: file applications and responses to office actions prepared by attorneys and agents, fill out the proper forms, pay the proper fees, track work items, and send correspondence to clients.

(b) Very few firms hire paralegal trainees. Even if you were to find a firm that does, there would be a low probability that it would hire you: a PhD in Chem Eng would likely not stick around. There are various routes to become a paralegal. Most of the paralegals I know have a two-years associates degree in paralegal studies and a paralegal certificate. Many firms further require passing a national certification exam. It makes no sense for you in your present situation to take additional coursework and exams just to become a paralegal.

(c) Even if you were to pull this off, though, being a paralegal will hurt you in the long run should you later apply for a position as a tech spec, patent agent, or patent attorney. A hiring manager would shake his head in bewilderment, “Why is a PhD in Chem Eng working as a paralegal instead of as a tech spec or patent agent?”

2. Once upon a time (pre-2000), major Megacorps (AT&T, IBM, GE, ...) had extensive in-house patent depts and had special programs in which experienced scientists and engineers with an interest in patent law could transition to a tech spec to a patent agent to a patent attorney at company expense. Such programs may still exist, but are a lot less common now. Even in the good ‘ol days though, fresh grads were not hired into these programs; they were targetted for scientists and engineers with at least 5 yrs R&D experience within the company. I assume because you are asking about law school now, you don’t want to first work in an industrial R&D lab for 5+ yrs. In which case, forget about trainee programs within a tech company.

3. That leaves you with law firms. As I mentioned previously, you can either apply for a position as a tech spec or pass the patent bar and apply for a position as a patent agent. There are a few firms that offer a career path from tech spec to patent agent to patent attorney, with at least partial subsidy for patent bar prep and part-time law school. There are more large firms that provide at least partial subsidy for part-time law school. Small and medium firms generally do not provide subsidies (although there are exceptions, if you perform well and the boss likes you). The most expensive online patent bar prep course is ~$2900, but discounted to ~$1900 if you are still a student [from your other post, I understand you have not completed your PhD yet, and are still technically a student]. You will likely have more options if you pass the patent bar on your own (shows prospective employers you’re serious about patent law), so I wouldn’t let patent bar exam expenses be a deciding factor (on top of the cost of the prep course, allow ~$500 for application, exam, and registration fees).

4. But again, before you proceed, find out what the demand for a PhD in Chem Eng is. Start with the tech transfer dept at your university. Ask for referrals to patent firms that the university uses.
 
  • #286
CrysPhys said:
4. But again, before you proceed, find out what the demand for a PhD in Chem Eng is. Start with the tech transfer dept at your university. Ask for referrals to patent firms that the university uses.
5. By the way, what is your undergrad degree in? Qualifications to sit for the patent bar exam are based on your undergrad degree. Full details can be found here:

https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/OED_GRB.pdf
 
  • #287
hi,
I like this topic and thanks for starting the conversation. I might have missed it but has anyone commented on how secure the job as a patent attorney is? (compared to non-tenure track postdoc jobs)?
 
  • #288
Hector said:
hi,
I like this topic and thanks for starting the conversation. I might have missed it but has anyone commented on how secure the job as a patent attorney is? (compared to non-tenure track postdoc jobs)?
Perhaps you should clarify what country you're talking about, and what you mean by "non-tenure track postdoc jobs". In the US, a postdoc is a limited-term position. Are you referring to non-tenure track faculty positions? Are you referring to industrial R&D jobs after receiving a PhD? Or something else?
 
  • #289
Hi there, I am in Australia and postdoc life here can last 7-8 years or so (moving from one to another without being able to make it to the next level). Many academic positions here are fixed terms, only 3-4 year contracts and no promise of further employment even if they perform well and tenure positions are pretty rare. How does it work in patent attorney, do you have some job security provided that your performance is good?
 
  • #290
Hector said:
Hi there, I am in Australia and postdoc life here can last 7-8 years or so (moving from one to another without being able to make it to the next level). Many academic positions here are fixed terms, only 3-4 year contracts and no promise of further employment even if they perform well and tenure positions are pretty rare. How does it work in patent attorney, do you have some job security provided that your performance is good?
In that case, you should check with an Australian patent attorney before considering a career shift; I can comment only about the US. The requirements for patent practitioners (with and without law degrees) vary considerably from one country to another. So you should find out the degree, exams, and training requirements first, and also ask about long-term career stability. I can say one thing about patent law in general (regardless of country): experience is a great plus, so you're less likely to be replaced by someone younger and cheaper once you've become an experienced patent practitioner.
 
  • #291
Hello. Thank you for this thread. I found it really helpful and relevant for the career path I am planning to take.
I am currently a PhD student with a major in Chemistry and I will be graduating by next year. Afterwards, I am planning to undertake law studies for 1 year with a Master of Laws in Intellectual Property major in Transnational IP and Information Technology (LL.M). Then, I plan to undergo a 1 year traineeship in a law firm before taking the bar exam for patent attorney/agents. I participated in many summer schools and trainings that involve intellectual property law since I'm very much attracted to it.

I would like to ask for your suggestion on a more efficient way of becoming a patent attorney/agent, or recommendations with regards to my career plan.
I think I am getting old right now (25 years old) so I really should be starting to work outside the University setting. I actually did not have any other work experience aside from doing research works in the University.

Finally, I am quite confused with regards to the status I have when taking the bar exam and if I pass it, what job description would be relevant for me? Patent attorney or patent agent? I know having a Master of Laws (LL.M) degree would not make you a lawyer. From the previous discussions, I noticed that many science degree holders could become patent agents if they pass the bar exam given by the USPTO or EPO. Would LL.M holders become patent attorneys or agents when they pass the bar exam?

Thank you.
 
  • #292
STEREOGENIC0711 said:
Hello. Thank you for this thread. I found it really helpful and relevant for the career path I am planning to take.
I am currently a PhD student with a major in Chemistry and I will be graduating by next year. Afterwards, I am planning to undertake law studies for 1 year with a Master of Laws in Intellectual Property major in Transnational IP and Information Technology (LL.M). Then, I plan to undergo a 1 year traineeship in a law firm before taking the bar exam for patent attorney/agents. I participated in many summer schools and trainings that involve intellectual property law since I'm very much attracted to it.

I would like to ask for your suggestion on a more efficient way of becoming a patent attorney/agent, or recommendations with regards to my career plan.
I think I am getting old right now (25 years old) so I really should be starting to work outside the University setting. I actually did not have any other work experience aside from doing research works in the University.

Finally, I am quite confused with regards to the status I have when taking the bar exam and if I pass it, what job description would be relevant for me? Patent attorney or patent agent? I know having a Master of Laws (LL.M) degree would not make you a lawyer. From the previous discussions, I noticed that many science degree holders could become patent agents if they pass the bar exam given by the USPTO or EPO. Would LL.M holders become patent attorneys or agents when they pass the bar exam?

Thank you.
You need to rewind and clarify your situation. You have another post in which you introduce yourself as a new member from Japan. So are you a Japanese citizen studying in Japan and planning to work in IP in Japan? If not, please explain your situation. As I mentioned previously, the requirements to become a registered patent practitioner vary from country to country. In particular, don't co-mingle USPTO and EPO. It is also important to consider any citizenship requirements.
 
  • #293
CrysPhys said:
You need to rewind and clarify your situation. You have another post in which you introduce yourself as a new member from Japan. So are you a Japanese citizen studying in Japan and planning to work in IP in Japan? If not, please explain your situation. As I mentioned previously, the requirements to become a registered patent practitioner vary from country to country. In particular, don't co-mingle USPTO and EPO. It is also important to consider any citizenship requirements.

Thank you very much for your reply. I am not a Japanese citizen though I am mixed Japanese-Filipino. I also did not elect Japanese citizenship despite living in Japan for several years now and I still hold my Philippine passport. There are fundamental differences in the USPTO, EPO, and JPO that were discussed in our course in IP law but I did not know about the nationality (Staatsangehorigkeit) requirement. Hmmm... If I consider that dilemma, would obtaining another citizenship (dual citizenship) solve the issue? Uhm, I am not planning to work for IP in Japan but in Europe because of the well-structured IP system and knowledge-based economy. Thank you.
 
  • #294
STEREOGENIC0711 said:
Thank you very much for your reply. I am not a Japanese citizen though I am mixed Japanese-Filipino. I also did not elect Japanese citizenship despite living in Japan for several years now and I still hold my Philippine passport. There are fundamental differences in the USPTO, EPO, and JPO that were discussed in our course in IP law but I did not know about the nationality (Staatsangehorigkeit) requirement. Hmmm... If I consider that dilemma, would obtaining another citizenship (dual citizenship) solve the issue? Uhm, I am not planning to work for IP in Japan but in Europe because of the well-structured IP system and knowledge-based economy. Thank you.
In your situation, some issues for you to consider:

(1) Titles such as "patent attorney", "patent agent", "patent engineer", and "patent representative" are not standardized internationally. Some titles are used in Country A, but not in Country B. Some titles are used in both Country A and Country B, but have different meanings with respect to qualifications and responsibilities. So what your actual position will be called will depend on the country in which you are employed.

(2) If you are specifically interested in practicing before the EPO, carefully check the requirements (such as degree, citizenship, residence, language, ...). A good place to start is here: http://www.epo.org/learning-events/eqe/about.html [note in particular the requirement to have worked as a patent trainee prior to taking the exam]. Since you are taking IP law courses, I would recommend that you ask your profs for referral to some EPO law firms; contact them directly to clarify what the work requirements are and whether they would be interested in someone with your background [if you are fluent in Japanese, that will be a plus, since many major Japanese corps file in the EPO]. Also, remember, in addition to the EPO, each European country has its own national patent office. So, if you apply to a law firm in Germany, for example, the firm may also want you to qualify to practice before the German patent office. This may entail additional requirements to those required for practicing before the EPO. Hypothetically, let's say you need to be fluent in German. Are you fluent in German? If not, should you become fluent in German prior to applying? You want to find out all these details in advance and remedy any deficiencies while you are still at the university. Do you have a preference for which European country you want to live in? As far as patent activity, an EPO patent attorney once told me that, among European countries, the country that originates the most number of patent applications is Germany. But, if you prefer the ambience in France, that's your call. But then evaluate the job opportunities in Germany vs France; again, German law firms may have different requirements from French law firms ... so you want to find out in advance.

(3) Are you planning to study for the LLM for your own interest, or because you think it will help land you a position with a law firm? If the latter, again check with law firms in advance to see whether it will in fact help you land a position or not.
 
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  • #295
CrysPhys said:
In your situation, some issues for you to consider:

(1) Titles such as "patent attorney", "patent agent", "patent engineer", and "patent representative" are not standardized internationally. Some titles are used in Country A, but not in Country B. Some titles are used in both Country A and Country B, but have different meanings with respect to qualifications and responsibilities. So what your actual position will be called will depend on the country in which you are employed.

(2) If you are specifically interested in practicing before the EPO, carefully check the requirements (such as degree, citizenship, residence, language, ...). A good place to start is here: http://www.epo.org/learning-events/eqe/about.html [note in particular the requirement to have worked as a patent trainee prior to taking the exam]. Since you are taking IP law courses, I would recommend that you ask your profs for referral to some EPO law firms; contact them directly to clarify what the work requirements are and whether they would be interested in someone with your background [if you are fluent in Japanese, that will be a plus, since many major Japanese corps file in the EPO]. Also, remember, in addition to the EPO, each European country has its own national patent office. So, if you apply to a law firm in Germany, for example, the firm may also want you to qualify to practice before the German patent office. This may entail additional requirements to those required for practicing before the EPO. Hypothetically, let's say you need to be fluent in German. Are you fluent in German? If not, should you become fluent in German prior to applying? You want to find out all these details in advance and remedy any deficiencies while you are still at the university. Do you have a preference for which European country you want to live in? As far as patent activity, an EPO patent attorney once told me that, among European countries, the country that originates the most number of patent applications is Germany. But, if you prefer the ambience in France, that's your call. But then evaluate the job opportunities in Germany vs France; again, German law firms may have different requirements from French law firms ... so you want to find out in advance.

(3) Are you planning to study for the LLM for your own interest, or because you think it will help land you a position with a law firm? If the latter, again check with law firms in advance to see whether it will in fact help you land a position or not.

Thank you very much for your response. I find it very relevant and informational.

1) As to this item, I am planning to study and work in Germany. I will ask my German friends concerning the conditions and policies in Germany with regards to practicing IP law, and the concomitant title that is given to them.

2) I am fluent in Japanese in a conversational and technical (Chemistry) level but not in law. Hence, I will be taking advanced Japanese courses from now on. I had a 60 hours German class in Germany last time, and now that I'm in Japan, I'm attending more classes in German. When my LL.M. studies commence, I think I could gather more information regarding the conditions on practicing IP law in Germany, and in EPO.

3) I am planning to study LL.M for my own interest. I think at this level, my knowledge on IP law is very fundamental. I think it would be better to acquire a law degree even for a 1-year study. I think, the professional connections I acquire at that time will help me further my career plans.

Once again, thank you very much! ありがとうございます。
 
  • #296
Is a patent attorney an option for someone with a BSc in physics? If so how desired are there? If not, would I need to go get a PhD?

Thank you for your response
 
  • #297
Aaron M said:
Is a patent attorney an option for someone with a BSc in physics? If so how desired are there? If not, would I need to go get a PhD?

Thank you for your response
A BS in physics will satisfy the educational requirements for you to sit for the USPTO patent bar exam (assuming you meet all the other requirements). If you pass, you become a patent agent. To become a patent attorney, you need to go to law school, get a JD, pass a state bar, and pass the patent bar. So yes, it's possible for you to become a patent agent or patent attorney. Whether you will get hired by a law firm, however, is a different story. Right now, the biggest demand for those with a BS is BS EE, Comp Sci, or Comp Eng. BS Physics is a harder sell. A PhD in physics makes you more marketable. However, I never recommend that anyone get a PhD (in any field) with the sole intent of becoming a patent agent or patent attorney. But if you already have a physics PhD, and are looking for a career alternative to R&D for whatever reason, a career in IP law is one option to explore.
 
  • #298
Hi all!

I've been looking into a career as a patent attorney and it sounds like it would play perfectly to my aptitudes in understanding new concepts and technologies, communicating ideas, and having an eye for detail and a love for language and phrasing.

I currently have an UG MSc in Physics from a top UK uni (2.1), but have since discovered that my interests lie more in mechanical engineering. I'm considering taking a ME conversion course.

Would this be sensible? How attractive is a background in physics and ME with no industrial experience likely to be for employers? Even if I don't end up going into IP law, I feel like this is likely to open up my career options a lot.

Note: as I understand it the UK system is somewhat different to the US in that it's normal to train and qualify on the job rather than going to law school.
 
  • #299
Luke R said:
Hi all!

I've been looking into a career as a patent attorney and it sounds like it would play perfectly to my aptitudes in understanding new concepts and technologies, communicating ideas, and having an eye for detail and a love for language and phrasing.

I currently have an UG MSc in Physics from a top UK uni (2.1), but have since discovered that my interests lie more in mechanical engineering. I'm considering taking a ME conversion course.

Would this be sensible? How attractive is a background in physics and ME with no industrial experience likely to be for employers? Even if I don't end up going into IP law, I feel like this is likely to open up my career options a lot.

Note: as I understand it the UK system is somewhat different to the US in that it's normal to train and qualify on the job rather than going to law school.
Since you need info specific to the UK, you should chat with people working at UK IP law firms. If you were at a major university with science and engineering departments, the university should have a technology transfer and intellectual property department. Ask someone there for referrals to contacts at firms that handle their transactions. In the course of your discussions, you should ask what impact [if any] BREXIT will have on IP career opportunities in the UK.
 
  • #300
I have two science degrees, neither a doctorate. I've thought of law school. but every attorney I've discussed this with has recommended against it. Its a lot of work, money is not that great, there are demands on your time, and restrictions on your behavior. One attorney said, "not just no, but he// no!"
 
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