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Are black holes the great organizers of the universe?

  1. Jun 19, 2012 #1
    [Correct me if I'm wrong about anything ;) ]

    We once though that the rate of expansion over that universe was slowing down. However, we now see that it's actually speeding up and the present theory is that matter will eventually move so fast that current laws of attraction will devolve and behave more like that of the quantum level. Moreover, after this occurs matter will essentially become the same sporadic soup that was present right before the big bang.

    Back to my question, I suspect that black holes will be more prevalent as expansion of the universe increases:

    - First, in it's current state as new stars are created, die, and implode upon gravitational forces that can no longer be satiated.

    - Later, when things move faster and more high-energy collisions occur.

    Now, black holes often get a 'bad rap' as the 'black soulless pits of the universe AAAGH!'
    However, I think that they are actually very helpful, for as things move faster and become more sporadic, black holes will do what they do best and organize very large amounts of matter into compact singularities. Which, in a sense, clean up the random mess that builds up as time goes on.

    Another theory that I have is that the big bang will repeat itself as (most likely) an extreme high-energy collision when the speed of matter increases to dizzying levels and creates a black hole so big that it organizes everything (or a very large chunk of what we perceive as 'everything') into a singularity. Later, the black hole will eventually evaporate, release its intense pressure, and let the singularity expand outwards once again into the cosmos.

    [Once again please correct me on anything to help me understand better...as I don't know much about physics. :) ]
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 19, 2012 #2


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    This does not make sense.

    As the universe expands, black holes will have less ability to suck in matter because there will be less matter nearby. (particularly if the "big rip" idea turns out to be right)

    gravitational forces that can no longer be satiated. is a string of words that make no sense.

    Again, no sense. As the universe expands, black holes will have less ability to suck in matter and the matter in the universe will become MORE diffuse, not less.

    Unsupported personal speculation (and mostly nonsense) which is against forum rules.

    Yes, I can see that.

    If all this sounds unfriendly, it is not mean to be. This is a serious physics forum and if you want to swim in the deep end of the pool, you have to do better than just splash around.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2012
  4. Jun 19, 2012 #3


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    This is incorrect. The expansion of the universe moves everything away from everything else. Things move apart, but no one gets anywhere, as you get away from everything else and no closer to anything. Eventually the average density of the universe, as a whole, will be very very low. This is the opposite of what happened near the beginning where the density of the universe was exceedingly high. Talk about what happens before the big bang are mostly nonsense.
    Did you mean that gravitational forces that cannot be counteracted any longer? Satiated doesn't make any sense here.

    Incorrect. As I pointed out above, everything gets further away from everything else. Objects never get closer to any other objects.

    I fail to see how this is helpful or organizational.

    There's a few misunderstandings here I wish to correct.

    1. Singularity-The point that our mathematical model breaks down and stops making useful predictions. Commonly taken to be the point of infinite density at the center of a black hole. Whether a singularity is a real thing and not just the point our model breaks down is not known. Given our lack of a working theory on quantum gravity, I would expect that our knowledge on the inside of a black hole is extremely limited.
    2. Even if the singularity were a real point inside the black hole, it would not "expand outward". For then it would no longer be a singularity.
    3. During evaporation of a black hole, radiation is emitted from just outside the event horizon and the black hole shrinks in size as mass escapes. The larger the black hole the longer this process takes. For a supermassive black hole of millions to billions of solar masses this process takes longer than 1014 years.
    4. There will be no high energy collisions.
    5. A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Personal theories are not and are against PF rules, as it detracts from the goal of the website, which is to teach the standard views and models of science.

    As Phinds said above, this may seem harsh but don't take it the wrong way. The first rule of PF is that everyone is wrong at some point. Just get used to it and try to learn from others.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
  5. Jun 19, 2012 #4
    Awesome, thanks for explaining everything! Also, no need to apologize for being 'harsh' as there wasn't really any personal sentimentality pertaining to anything I just said for I already knew I was pretty much wrong haha.

    Instead I came here to learn and it's much better to be a fool anonymously on the internet than one in the classroom of a college course, etc.

    Thanks again!
  6. Jun 19, 2012 #5


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    Admirable point of view and I'd take it a step further. It's better to seem a fool by asking questions in class than to not ask them and be a fool.
  7. Jun 20, 2012 #6
    One thing to point out here is that in fact, even if it might look to an uneducated observer that black holes are somehow "tidying" up the universe, that's not actually true. In fact, black holes are the messiest matter configurations you can possibly have.

    So even if you were tempted to throw your kid's room into a black hole, you would end up increasing the entropy of the universe, not decreasing it!
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