Are the Laws of Thermodynamics still applicable in modern physics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the applicability and status of the Laws of Thermodynamics in modern physics, exploring the distinction between laws and theories, and the historical context of these concepts. Participants examine whether any historical laws remain undisputed and consider the implications of evolving scientific understanding.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Historical
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the distinction between "laws" and "theories," suggesting that these terms have evolved historically and may not hold the same significance today.
  • One participant argues that the term "law" is becoming less favored in modern science due to its categorical nature and the understanding that scientific knowledge is subject to change.
  • Another participant proposes that while some historical laws, such as the Laws of Thermodynamics, have stood the test of time, they may still be subject to reinterpretation as new evidence emerges.
  • There is a suggestion that the principle of causality, the principle of least action, and the cosmological principle may be more interesting to consider than traditional laws, raising questions about why these are classified as principles rather than laws.
  • A later reply introduces the fluctuation theorem, mentioning experiments that show potential violations of the Second Law of Thermodynamics on short time scales, indicating ongoing exploration in this area.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the status of the Laws of Thermodynamics and the nature of scientific laws in general. There is no consensus on whether these laws are still applicable or undisputed in light of modern physics.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the historical context of scientific laws and their potential evolution over time, suggesting that the understanding of these laws may depend on new evidence and interpretations.

saddlestone-man
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TL;DR
Who determines what's a Theory and what's a Law?
Hello All

We have Newton's Laws of Motion, which have been superseded by Einstein's Theory of General Relativity.

Who determines what's a Theory and what's a Law?

best regards ... Stef
 
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Those are just names, some of which evolved historically. I wouldn't worry about it. "Law" is out of favor these days. Too categorical.
 
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phinds said:
Those are just names, some of which evolved historically. I wouldn't worry about it. "Law" is out of favor these days. Too categorical.
In the old days, Scientists believed that they were uncovering 'Laws' which had been laid down in the Universe by a deity. Most of us realize that this was probably misguided. Modern day Scientists are only too well aware of the rate of change of our knowledge and that it would be almost presumptuous to expect to find a 'Law'. In a year / decade / century, your law would have add-ons to account for new evidence.
 
Are there any historical "Laws" in physics which are still undisputed?

I would nominate the Laws of Thermodynamics, now more than 100 years old. I believe what eventually became the Second Law was formulated in 1824, ie almost 200 years ago,
 
saddlestone-man said:
Are there any historical "Laws" in physics which are still undisputed?
Disputed is the wrong word. It implies that there is no need to dig deeper. For example, General Relativity showed us that Newton's Law of gravity is not the whole story on very large scales.

It may surprise you, but there are some things in physics that are even more fun to think about than laws. The principle of causality is one. The principle of least action is another. But the easiest one to understand is the cosmological principle. I suggest that you read some about all three of those, they may arouse your interest. Then ask yourself, "Why are these principles rather than laws?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_action
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_principle
 
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saddlestone-man said:
Are there any historical "Laws" in physics which are still undisputed?

I would nominate the Laws of Thermodynamics, now more than 100 years old. I believe what eventually became the Second Law was formulated in 1824, ie almost 200 years ago,
You may want to read about recent work on the fluctuation theorem. There are experiments which show violations of the 2nd law on short time scales.
 
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