Are too many students going into CompSci?

[swampwiz]

I was reading this article (paywalled), and this graph stuck out like a sore thumb:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/05/19/college-majors-computer-science-humanities/

 

[.Scott]

My only concern is that those students get what they are looking for - Computer Technology jobs.

I had a college buddy, Burt Solomon, who was a fine computer programmer but was hesitant to get a job as a programmer. His mother told him that pretty soon, all of the computer programs would be written. That was about 50 years ago.

I also have a concern about some of what I read in that article. The more technology-oriented a major is, the less appropriate it is to feed the students stuff like 19th-century literature. More appropriate classes would be technical writing, requirements definition, user documentation, debriefing stakeholders.

 

[Choppy]

While that article is focused on the University of Maryland, according to this data, there does seem to be a growing number of graduates in the computer an information sciences across the US.

To answer the title question though... how many is "too many?"

It's not surprising that there's a lot of growth in computer science. From a big picture perspective, this is a field were people tend to perceive a lot of professional opportunity. Particularly with the rising costs of education, a lot of students are entering university with an eye toward the career skills they'll be developing and how marketable they will be when they graduate. Humanities tend not to be perceived as quite so lucrative.

 

[symbolipoint]

While that article is focused on the University of Maryland. According to this data, there does seem to be a growing number of graduates in the computer an information sciences across the US.

To answer the title question though... how many is "too many?"

It's not surprising that there's a lot of growth in computer science. From a big picture perspective, this is a field were people tend to perceive a lot of professional opportunity. Particularly with the rising costs of education, a lot of students are entering university with an eye toward the career skills they'll be developing and how marketable they will be when they graduate. Humanities tend not to be perceived as quite so lucrative.

Not yet having looked at the article, the idea of "Impacted Program" comes to mind. At least in some places C.S. programs could become locally impacted. This has happened at times in some places.

 

[Vanadium 50]

If too many students are going into CS...

• How many should there be?
• Who will enforce this?
• How do we respond to the messages that are all boo-hoo-hooey "they won't even give me a chance!"?

 

[.Scott]

To address the OP Title question "Are too many students going into Computer Science?":

The first problem with the question is that there are a lot of possible objectives in seeking a "CompSci" degree. Presuming they are seeking post-grad employment, the student may aspire to Software Engineer, Systems Engineer, IT Support, Test Engineer, etc. And, of course, aspirations do change during their college work - especially in Computer Science.

So, focusing only on the aspirations of the graduating class and looking at each sub-discipline on its own, the "too many" question runs into the next obstacle: Within a subdiscipline, does the market skills "pull" match the graduate skills "push". It isn't strictly numbers. It is very possible to have a huge employment shortage within a discipline, but a graduating class that does not have the skills to address that shortage.

All that said...
According to CollegeFactual.com, there were about 60K graduates in the 2021 graduating class.
the US Bureau of Labor Statistics:

Job Outlook:

Overall employment of software developers, quality assurance analysts, and testers is projected to grow 25 percent from 2021 to 2031, much faster than the average for all occupations.

About 162,900 openings for software developers, quality assurance analysts, and testers are projected each year, on average, over the decade. Many of those openings are expected to result from the need to replace workers who transfer to different occupations or exit the labor force, such as to retire.

Aside from what I have already described, there are other problems in comparing the "CompSci" graduation number (60K) with the market demand number (163K). The are other degrees (EE for example) that can feed the demand, and there are other employment positions that can draw from those graduating classes.

 

[phinds]

I also have a concern about some of what I read in that article. The more technology-oriented a major is, the less appropriate it is to feed the students stuff like 19th-century literature. More appropriate classes would be technical writing, requirements definition, user documentation, debriefing stakeholders.

Thus assuring that they do not get anything approaching a rounded education. If you want a trade school, go to a trade school.

 

[.Scott]

Thus assuring that they do not get anything approaching a rounded education. If you want a trade school, go to a trade school.

I have spoken to many, many people who were considering entering college for a degree. I always ask what they are looking for. So far, the oft-vaunted "rounded education" has never been mentioned - it scores a perfect zero.

In my first post to this thread, I picked on "19th Century Literature". 19th Century Literature was written for 19th Century people. People who did not have TV's, internet, or even regular access to theater. I'm not saying that there's no value in sampling the art form. But it is beyond bizarre to fill an entire semester course with it. I don't need to replicate life in Ancient Egypt to learn some interesting stuff about Ancient Egypt. I can only guess that the school was looking to deliver some relatively easy college credits under the heading of "rounded education".

 

[CrysPhys]

I have spoken to many, many people who were considering entering college for a degree. I always ask what they are looking for. So far, the oft-vaunted "rounded education" has never been mentioned - it scores a perfect zero.

And if you ask these same people "What are you looking for in a meal plan?", I'm confident that the number who would respond "Nutritionally well-balanced meals, with a good selection of fresh vegetables and fruit, low in sodium, low in added sugars." would also be zero. But what they are looking for at the present is not necessarily what's best for them in the long term. That's where external guidance comes into play.

I also have a concern about some of what I read in that article. The more technology-oriented a major is, the less appropriate it is to feed the students stuff like 19th-century literature. More appropriate classes would be technical writing, requirements definition, user documentation, debriefing stakeholders.

Such a narrow focus is OK if you are confident that you will stay in the same niche for the next four decades or so. But such is not always the case. When I first started my career, the upper level managers that I reported to were all scientists and engineers. But after some major reorgs, the guys calling the shots were business and finance people. Thanks to my well-rounded education, I easily pivoted my written reports and oral presentations to a non-technical audience, and stayed afloat. Many of my colleagues were not able to, and floundered. Similarly, when I changed careers sharply to that of a patent agent, I easily adapted to legalese. Some former colleagues who tried to make a similar career change after getting laid off during a hi-tech meltdown just couldn't.

 

[phinds]

Such a narrow focus is OK if you are confident that you will stay in the same niche for the next four decades or so.

Even if that IS the case, as you move into adulthood you might well like to be able to talk to a wide variety of people without sounding like an ignoramus.

 

[CrysPhys]

Even if that IS the case, as you move into adulthood you might well like to be able to talk to a wide variety of people without sounding like an ignoramus.

I agree. I didn't want to get into a more extended debate over the value of an education for a person as a whole. I wanted to make a case that even for someone who's interested in education solely for career development, a broader education has practical advantages by providing flexibility in unstable job markets.

 

[Office_Shredder]

The UK doesn't give a liberal education to undergraduate students and I hear they have a couple schools that are well regarded. I think this is a distinctly American concept designed to extract an extra year of tuition out of everyone.

Maybe they can read the source code for Pokémon Red. That's a work of art in many ways compared to today's techniques.

 

[Vanadium 50]

. I think this is a distinctly American concept designed to extract an extra year of tuition out of everyone.

American, perhaps.

Extract an extra year of tuition, why? You're Stanvard U. If you cut this requirement, you could take 4/3 as many students, so your tuition income is the same. But now your alumni donations are up by 4/3.

 

[gmax137]

Even if that IS the case, as you move into adulthood you might well like to be able to talk to a wide variety of people without sounding like an ignoramus.

Exactly. And it is not the ability to spout Jeopardy answers, it is the ability to understand people. The surprising thing about reading classics from Aeschylus to Shakespeare is that people and their motivations haven't really changed much in over 2500 years. Plus, you get to use cool expressions like "Trojan Horse" with authority.

 

[gwnorth]

Thus assuring that they do not get anything approaching a rounded education.

I thought that's what high school was for.

 

[gmax137]

I thought that's what high school was for.

I have been wondering if the different approaches (UK vs "American") follow from differences in high school curricula.

 

[swampwiz]

The UK doesn't give a liberal education to undergraduate students and I hear they have a couple schools that are well regarded. I think this is a distinctly American concept designed to extract an extra year of tuition out of everyone.

Maybe they can read the source code for Pokémon Red. That's a work of art in many ways compared to today's techniques.

I didn't graduate in CompSci (it was MechEng for me), but looking at the program at my alma mater, I only see 24 (semester) hours of "liberal education" (i.e., arts, humanities, social sciences, biology, physical science, but not counting freshman English composition), but there is an extra 15 hours of CompSci (or similar) electives, so I see how this could be crammed down into a 3-year program. As for my MechEng program (it has been updated a bit since I was there), there are 18 hours of "liberal education" (Physics is a requirement, not an elective here) and 9 hours of MechEng (or similar) electives, but since MechEng is already a bit swollen for hours, I could see it only going to 3-1/2 years - and that would make "critical path" courses have even less leeway (i.e., almost all the required coursework needs to be taken before or concurrently (with the 1st semester) the 2-semester senior project, so the last semester is going to have a lot of electives just by design.

Looking back, besides being nice easier courses, the liberal arts electives were what made me feel like I was a regular college student instead of technical institute student. I still remember the look on the face of a PoliSci major that lived up the stairwell from me be amazed that an "engineering student" could score an A on a term paper from a PoliSci prof for a senior level course. Now in my retirement, I find myself interested more in liberal arts subjects.

 

[phinds]

I thought that's what high school was for.

Not even close

 

[symbolipoint]

I thought that's what high school was for.

Yes, it is; but that is not enough.

 

[.Scott]

Even if that IS the case, as you move into adulthood you might well like to be able to talk to a wide variety of people without sounding like an ignoramus.

That's a very worrisome statement.
You are touting not "sounding like an ignoramus" as a major college objective - worthy of a very substantial portion of a college curriculum.
I am currently working on a medical device. I would gladly "sound like an ignoramus" several times a day if that would help in bringing this project to a successful completion.

If an engineer's favorite literature was sci-fi, would he still look like an ignoramus while landing a rocket on Mars?

 

[phinds]

If an engineer's favorite literature was sci-fi, would he still look like an ignoramus while landing a rocket on Mars?

That would depend on his education and other interests. Quite possibly, yes, he would be considered a brilliant technical type who was an ignoramus regarding art, history, politics, theater, religion, music, and a host of other topics of general interest --- basically, anything outside of his area of specialization. There is a reason why there is a stereotype of engineers as boring.

I don't think you and I are going to come to any agreement about this. You can have the last word and then let's drop it.

 

[.Scott]

I was refering to Elon Musk.

 

[gmax137]

I was refering to Elon Musk.

Is Musk an engineer?

Musk graduated from Pretoria Boys High School in South Africa. Musk attended Waterkloof House Preparatory School, Bryanston High School, and Pretoria Boys High School, from which he graduated. Musk applied for a Canadian passport his Canadian-born mother, knowing that it would be easier to immigrate to the United States this way. While waiting for his application to be processed, he attended the University of Pretoria for five months.

Musk arrived in Canada in June 1989 and lived with a second cousin in Saskatchewan for a year. In 1990, he entered Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario. Two years later, he transferred to the University of Pennsylvania (UPenn), where he completed studies for a Bachelor of Arts degree in physics and a Bachelor of Science degree in economics from the Wharton School.

 

[symbolipoint]

You are touting not "sounding like an ignoramus" as a major college objective - worthy of a very substantial portion of a college curriculum.
I am currently working on a medical device. I would gladly "sound like an ignoramus" several times a day if that would help in bringing this project to a successful completion.

Something is missing in your interpretation of @phinds statement.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I had kind of hopes the OP had answered my questions, to put some substance to his assertions.

One issue is that
"Computer Science" encompasses a pretty wide range of programs, many of which do not teach a lick of computer science, If they teach anything at all, it's how to cobble together whatever sort of application is trendy at the moment. Right now we have a thread here on FizzBuzz as a test of basic programming - not even computer science - and another where someone is complaining how much they need to learn to get a good job in IT.

Having done some hiring in my day, I would not be surprised if there is a shortage of people who understand computer science and a glut of people who made their way throuugh some program, but still have a lot to learn.

I'll also point out that college is not trade school. Also, that just because you got a degree in X doesn't mean that's what your career will be in. For example, I know lots of engineers who founded companies and thus do management instead of engineering.

Adolph "Bud" Herseth, who was principal trumpet with the Chicago Symphony for fifty-three years was a math major.

 

[DeBangis21]

I reckoned that. There are many number of Computer Science students in my uni and some tertiaries that I know.

 

[pinball1970]

Something is missing in your interpretation of @phinds statement.

A little torn here. I (UK) was glad to get away from languages, literature, history and the like at 16 in 1983 and A level "general studies" was supposed to fill those gaps between "O" level and University.
If you were studying Music, English and History A level, you could use your general studies hour a week or whatever it was to study maths and science.
I could tolerate an hour of Arty stuff a week but I ended up with gaps.
There is only so much you can learn by the time you are 16, and by 18 while you are trying to concentrate on A levels at the same time.
As an aside but back to the OP, they had O level computer science at my school and about 12 kids who did it. They had to go to the "toast rack" college to study it because they had no computers at the school.
The numbers of courses/student numbers are following the demand and role of computers in our society.
Just a view.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

A little torn here. I (UK) was glad to get away from languages, literature, history and the like at 16 in 1983 and A level "general studies" was supposed to fill those gaps between "O" level and University.
If you were studying Music, English and History A level, you could use your general studies hour a week or whatever it was to study maths and science.
I could tolerate an hour of Arty stuff a week but I ended up with gaps.
There is only so much you can learn by the time you are 16, and by 18 while you are trying to concentrate on A levels at the same time.
As an aside but back to the OP, they had O level computer science at my school and about 12 kids who did it. They had to go to the "toast rack" college to study it because they had no computers at the school.
The numbers of courses/student numbers are following the demand and role of computers in our society.
Just a view.

I think it has to do with how k-12 are pushing coding, and the bombardment of people making it rich in this field, or related.

 

[pinball1970]

I think it has to do with how k-12 are pushing coding, and the bombardment of people making it rich in this field, or related.

Just looked that up (k12). Could be going that way in the UK. I do not know any younger people!
My niece is doing a B.Ed, I will check!

 

[symbolipoint]

A little torn here. I (UK) was glad to get away from languages, literature, history and the like at 16 in 1983 and A level "general studies" was supposed to fill those gaps between "O" level and University.
If you were studying Music, English and History A level, you could use your general studies hour a week or whatever it was to study maths and science.
I could tolerate an hour of Arty stuff a week but I ended up with gaps.
There is only so much you can learn by the time you are 16, and by 18 while you are trying to concentrate on A levels at the same time.
As an aside but back to the OP, they had O level computer science at my school and about 12 kids who did it. They had to go to the "toast rack" college to study it because they had no computers at the school.
The numbers of courses/student numbers are following the demand and role of computers in our society.
Just a view.

The quote was related to the @phinds statement of "not sounding like an ingoramus". Your quote above is probably fine and good, but the "ignoramus" part of @phinds message was stated from the pessimistic side. What the understanding is or should be, is be able to function effectively with people and their cultures and educations outside of your own main/major one. This topic is about "too many students...computer science"; an education in c.s. is great; just have enough understanding to be able to interact with salespeople, custodians, maintenance mechanics, different kinds of repair technicians, and with people outside of or near your work site.

 

[Mark44]

Right now we have a thread here on FizzBuzz as a test of basic programming - not even computer science

To be fair, the thread I started on FizzBuzz really had little to do with FizzBuzz itself, but was instead used that interview problem to show how a functional programming language such as Erlang approached things in a completely different way from garden-variety procedural languages. It was not my intent at all to engender a discussion about FizzBuzz itself or implementations of it in more usual languages.

Regarding the comment from @phinds about the value of studying various arts and humanities subjects so as not to sound like an ignoramus -- that reminded me of the book "Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences," by John Allen Paulos. In the book he made the point that many who were considered "intellectuals" were well-versed the arts and humanities, but whose knowledge of science and mathematics stopped well short of the state of the art circa 17th century in these areas. In short, people who were well-versed in mathematics and the sciences, but lacking in the arts and humanities were not deemed to be among the intelligentsia, but the same wasn't true when things were switched.

 

[phinds]

In the book he made the point that many who were considered "intellectuals" were well-versed the arts and humanities, but whose knowledge of science and mathematics stopped well short of the state of the art circa 17th century in these areas.

I think it's worse than that. People with either NO knowledge of STEM subjects or even more likely having a fair amount of incorrect knowledge in same, are considered "intellectuals" in many circles as long as they have a broad knowledge of humanities subjects.

I'm an engineer but am very well and widely read and have studied many non-stem subjects (e.g. art, history, literature, economics, business, etc.) during my many decades, but my "label" in some circles is automatically "engineer" (unspoken "ignoramus"), at least until I talk to someone.

I have, in many cases, found that the people who originally considered me an ignoramus were themselves pretty much totally ignorant of STEM subjects and, on rare occasions, even proud of their igorance.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

You learn non stem subjects to not bore hot chicks lol. Unless one wants to be a girl repellent for life.

 

[phinds]

You learn non stem subjects to not bore hot chicks lol

In your 20's maybe. What do you do the rest of your life?

 

[MidgetDwarf]

In your 20's maybe. What do you do the rest of your life?

Become the Dos Equis man... Duhhh

Stay thirsty my friends.