Are You a Do-Gooder? Examining Freedom of Speech

[wolram]

Are you a do good er? a person that thinks freedom of speech is a given, even though this freedom of speech CAN be hateful and harmful.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Are you a do good er? a person that thinks freedom of speech is a given, even though this freedom of speech CAN be hateful and harmful.

Doing good (as in do good er) is not a matter of thinking (as in thinks freedom of speech is a given), but of doing. I do think that hateful speech should be protected, but not harmful speech. That too is a matter of the difference between thinking and doing as hate is a thought, but harm is a deed.

 

[lisab]

Doing good (as in do good er) is not a matter of thinking (as in thinks freedom of speech is a given), but of doing.

Otherwise, you'd just be a think good er.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Are you a do good er? a person that thinks freedom of speech is a given, even though this freedom of speech CAN be hateful and harmful.

Here in the US, the right to free speech is fundamental but with limits. For example, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, but you can yell "theater" in a crowded fire station.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't see what doing good has to do with free speech.


I do not believe that hateful speech should be protected. It's a pretty fine line I grant, to determine what's hateful and what's not, but I believe in the principle.

 

[tribdog]

I've got about 5 infractions that say I don't have freedom of speech.

 

[LightbulbSun]

I think all forms of speech should be protected. There's no such thing as harmful speech since words can't harm you. There are harmful actions, but not harmful speech IMO.

 

[Proton Soup]

Are you a do good er? a person that thinks freedom of speech is a given, even though this freedom of speech CAN be hateful and harmful.

free speech is like sunshine. it lights your way, disinfects, and sends cockroaches scurrying. if you burn easily, wear a wide-brimmed hat.

 

[Proton Soup]

hey wolfram, the missing part of my post was in reply to your derogatory "do gooder" insult.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

There's no such thing as harmful speech since words can't harm you. There are harmful actions, but not harmful speech IMO.

Incitement to riot is harmful speech.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Incitement to riot is harmful speech.

I don't consider that harmful speech, that's harmful action.

 

[wolram]

hey wolfram, the missing part of my post was in reply to your derogatory "do gooder" insult.

It was meant as an insult i agree, i too think there is a fine line between say, incitement to riot and just hateful speech, i think anyone who protects extreme speech IS a do good er.

 

[Office_Shredder]

I don't consider that harmful speech, that's harmful action.

As long as I'm not rioting all I'm doing is talking (or yelling maybe).

Alternatively, you can accept the fact that speech is an action.

 

[Proton Soup]

It was meant as an insult i agree, i too think there is a fine line between say, incitement to riot and just hateful speech, i think anyone who protects extreme speech IS a do good er.

i think you've got it exactly bassackwards about who's the do gooder here, but i support your right to be wrong.

 

[mgb_phys]

I think it's a divided by a common language thing.
In UK English - a do gooder is a self appointed authority who wants to restrict what you can do for your own good, the "won't someone think of the children" effect.

So a common headline is: council 'do gooders' ban children from throwing snowballs (in case they get hurt). It also applies to groups calling for censorship of TV / films etc.
It's normally used as a derogatrary term.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I hate this thread. Hate HAte HATe HATE[/color] it.

 

[DaveC426913]

Actually, that was what I was going to point out.

I do think hate-mongering is something that should not enjoy the benefits of free speech. Ernst Zundel for example should not have free reign to speak all his views publicly.

 

[lisab]

I hate this thread. Hate HAte HATe HATE[/color] it.

It's ok, jimmy. Hate posts are protected.

 

[wolram]

Actually i guess there is some form of protection from hate mongers, i bet they will be investigated by one agency or another, but why let it go so far and cost the tax payer?
Some of these people have even had police protection, may be this is a step to far.

 

[DaveC426913]

Actually i guess there is some form of protection from hate mongers, i bet they will be investigated by one agency or another, but why let it go so far and cost the tax payer?

Because I think the censorship of them should be sanctioned by law.

Otherwise, agencies could investigate them all they want but what can they do if it's legal?

Some of these people have even had police protection, may be this is a step to far.

Well, that's a separate issue. That moves from speech into action. As a society, we would never allow a person to come to harm, regardless of how we as individuals feel about them. That would be worrisome. That would sew the roots of anarchy: allowing the people to mete out ad hoc justice.

 

[wolram]

Because I think the censorship of them should be sanctioned by law.

I agree whole heartedly, i am only searching for some fair means to judge who is a hate monger, i could name some who i think are, but would the do gooders agree? i doubt it.
they want to live in a world where every thing is protected, even if it is their dertriment.

 

[jim mcnamara]

I've got about 5 infractions that say I don't have freedom of speech.

Ya. But I see no line thru your name. It means you can be taught, or more correctly there is hope for you... :)


As a pointless aside -

Just because you construct a special thought does not mean it has to be heard by someone else. This more often earns us castigation or a line thru our names - or both.

D Hofstadter noted that English sentences with ~16 or more words have a measurable probability of never having been uttered or even constructed before. So we can all retain our 'unique' label, that most deplorable aspect of living in the USA, without verbalizing every thought we have. Then we can be content within ourselves and wreak social havoc inwardly. Even old stinkers like me can learn this trick... maybe.

 

[misgfool]

Because I think the censorship of them should be sanctioned by law.

But where do you draw the line? Can you be objective? Do you trust that the watchers are objective? Or more like hope for that? "Homo Homini Lupus" even though that discredits noble creatures such as the wolves. Speech can cause no physical harm to anyone. Whistleblower's have been forced to speak/write anonymously throughout history for their own safety. How can that be if they spoke the truth and the best interest of the people in mind? Obviously, if the law allows for people in power to prevent unwanted opinions they will use it sooner or later.

 

[wolram]

But where do you draw the line? Can you be objective? Do you trust that the watchers are objective? Or more like hope for that? "Homo Homini Lupus" even though that discredits noble creatures such as the wolves. Speech can cause no physical harm to anyone. Whistleblower's have been forced to speak/write anonymously throughout history for their own safety. How can that be if they spoke the truth and the best interest of the people in mind? Obviously, if the law allows for people in power to prevent unwanted opinions they will use it sooner or later.

I am sorry but this is where people are lilly livered, they will not decide what is good for them, and so we have the do gooders, the do gooders mean well but they take the good and bad as read, if people are bad they should be labeled as such, and not as some lamb that has strayed from the fold.

 

[Proton Soup]

I agree whole heartedly, i am only searching for some fair means to judge who is a hate monger, i could name some who i think are, but would the do gooders agree? i doubt it.
they want to live in a world where every thing is protected, even if it is their dertriment.

is this part of your schtick for which you're famously funny? the irony here is giving me hemochromatosis.

 

[wolram]

is this part of your schtick for which you're famously funny? the irony here is giving me hemochromatosis.

May be i am famously funny because i do not understand what the heck you said, what ever it is i hope it gets better or cured.

 

[Andre]

This thread also drifted to freedom of speech. Especially towards the end.

So here is my take.

 

[misgfool]

I am sorry but this is where people are lilly livered, they will not decide what is good for them, and so we have the do gooders, the do gooders mean well but they take the good and bad as read, if people are bad they should be labeled as such, and not as some lamb that has strayed from the fold.

I am not entirely certain that I understood that, but how do we know that people are bad if nobody can say that they are bad? Anyway with Borg efficiency I would have to say: "Could you clarify, please?".

 

[Proton Soup]

May be i am famously funny because i do not understand what the heck you said, what ever it is i hope it gets better or cured.

i guess we have something in common, then, because i have no idea what you're getting at, either. do you really think people need to be protected from words or ideas? maybe you could be more specific and lay it out for us just exactly what you want to censor and what you think will happen if you don't censor it. because where i sit, i don't see the harm you see. i just see a lot of people disagreeing, yet getting along.

 

[DaveC426913]

You cannot label a person as bad, only an action. If a person has a high probability of committing bad acts (such as serial offenders) then we take take some precautionary measures.

We justify this by way of the "social contract": This land* belongs to all of us. To live here, we agree not to harm* each other. Violate* that, and you violate the contract ,and we can by rights protect* ourselves from you. (*all these terms are arbitrarily open to interpretation and degrees of enforcement without substantially affecting the core contract.)

I made above up. It explains in very loose terms why we have freedoms, but not necessarily rights such as free speech i.e they can be revoked.

 

[wolram]

i guess we have something in common, then, because i have no idea what you're getting at, either. do you really think people need to be protected from words or ideas? maybe you could be more specific and lay it out for us just exactly what you want to censor and what you think will happen if you don't censor it. because where i sit, i don't see the harm you see. i just see a lot of people disagreeing, yet getting along.

I will let that one simmer.

 

[DaveC426913]

i am only searching for some fair means to judge who is a hate monger, i could name some who i think are, but would the do gooders agree? i doubt it.

Because it's a bluzzy line, it pretty has to be on a case-by-case basis. Which is what the courts are for.

Do you trust that the watchers are objective?

We don't have to trust. We need merely ensure we have a transparent system.

Speech can cause no physical harm to anyone.

I think this is bifurcating bunnies.

That philosphy would give you the right to stand directly in front of me and scream racial slurs in my face at the top of your lungs. you are doing no physical harm.


I would, of course, claim, rightly so, that you're violating my personal space (and the space of my impressionable young children). But at what distance it is considered an invasion of our personal physical space? 5 feet? 20 feet? Within earshot and eyeshot? Could I establish borders, such as this park where I'm strolling with my children?

Some would argue that whole cities and even whole countries are within a person's rights to determine laws such as this. And we're back to government-sanctioned laws on individual behaviour...

 

[misgfool]

We justify this by way of the "social contract": This land* belongs to all of us. To live here, we agree not to harm* each other. Violate* that, and you violate the contract ,and we can by rights protect* ourselves from you. (*all these terms are arbitrarily open to interpretation and degrees of enforcement without substantially affecting the core contract.)

I made above up. It explains in very loose terms why we have freedoms, but not necessarily rights such as free speech i.e they can be revoked.

Isn't this also applicable to Soviet Union or any other dictatorship? I would still prefer to live in a western democracy than the USSR.

We don't have to trust. We need merely ensure we have a transparent system.

Good point. I have to agree with this. But still that's easier said (if allowed) than done.

That philosphy would give me the right to stand directly in front of you and scream racial slurs in your face at the top of my lungs. I am doing no physical harm.

You could claim I'm violating your personal space. but at what distance it is considered an invasion of your personal physical space? Few would dispute that I have the right to command you not sit in your undies next to me and my children on a park bench, cursing to make a sailor blush. I have the right to protect my children (and I don't have to get up and leave to do so.)

Now that is a silly argument. I have also the liberty to exclude myself from your company should you be such a yelling jerk. But just out of curiosity, since I am a white, blond, meat-eating, heterosexual male, what kind of slurs would you use? Also actually my pressure sensing elements are quite sensitive and loud voices can cause distinctive pain.

Offtopic:
Besides I served in Navy recon and I can tell you that sailors didn't bother to blush after 16 weeks of boot camp. Also sailors code of conduct would definitely forbid sitting on a public park bench in undies.

Where do my rights end? Some argue that whole cities and even whole countries are within a person's rights to determine laws such as this. And we're back to government-sanctioned laws on individual behaviour.

In principal I couldn't do anything to your yelling but I probably could get a 300 meters restraining order. So this cencorship of yours would concern only yelling in the streets? People could still write whatever they chose to?

Ps. How does that Multi-Quote work?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Ps. How does that Multi-Quote work?

Multiquote as many people's posts as you want, but quote the last one.

 

[misgfool]

Multiquote as many people's posts as you want, but quote the last one.

You must be a mathematician.

 

[wolram]

All i can say is that do gooders do not want the responsibility to make a decision, they are weak and cowardly, they will support any law written or not.

 

[Proton Soup]

passive-aggressive much?

 

[DaveC426913]

All i can say is that do gooders do not want the responsibility to make a decision, they are weak and cowardly, they will support any law written or not.

I am not really sure what you mean by this term 'do gooder'. I mean, I know what I mean by it, but the way you use it makes little sense. To me, a 'do gooder' is more referring to discrete acts by an individual.

"You should stop using zat word. I do not sink it means what you sink it means."
-Inigo Montoya

 

[DaveC426913]

Isn't this also applicable to Soviet Union or any other dictatorship? I would still prefer to live in a western democracy than the USSR.

Of course it's applicable. How does the preference of country factor in?

Now that is a silly argument. I have also the liberty to exclude myself from your company should you be such a yelling jerk.

Yes but you shouldn't have to leave to enjoy your peace. You have a right to it there.

(Forgive me for opening the racial example can-o-worms, but...)
In the 60's, blacks wanting to eat in "regular" restaurants were told: "if you don't like it, no one's taking away your right to leave."

You can see that their rights are indeed violated despite the fact that they could merely go elsewhere.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Dave,

You're forgetting the fact that someone can file a restraining order if they felt their personal space was being violated. Limiting someones speech doesn't really solve the problem at all.

 

[wolram]

To the mentors ,I know you have thought long and hard about closing this thread, i all so know you have powers to discriminate from what is right from wrong, i hope you will allow this debate to continue as i think human resonsability is important.

 

[Moonbear]

Here in the US, the right to free speech is fundamental but with limits. For example, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, but you can yell "theater" in a crowded fire station.

Well, really, you can still yell "fire" in a crowded theater too, and as long as everyone just stares at you and thinks you're bonkers, all is good. If, however, a stampede causing injury to people and damage to property immediately follows, you can be held responsible for the damages caused by your action of shouting fire in a crowded theater. It's an important distinction that your freedom of speech isn't restricted, but rather that your freedom comes with responsibility.

 

[misgfool]

Of course it's applicable. How does the preference of country factor in?

Just my two cents.

(Forgive me for opening the racial example can-o-worms, but...)

Unfortunately our lines are all full and your apology has been placed in queue. We shall process your request as soon as possible. No seriously, we are cool.

However, I'm not an english native and could only identify this "can-o-worms" as

The Can-O-Worms is an odourless, user friendly system that allows anyone to participate in recycling...

Really?

In the 60's, blacks wanting to eat in "regular" restaurants were told: "if you don't like it, no one's taking away your right to leave."

You can see that their rights are indeed violated despite the fact that they could merely go elsewhere.

I'm not sure about the 60's as I hadn't materialized yet, but if I remember correctly entrepreneurs have the right to choose their clients. Of course any reasonable one doesn't say no to money.

To the mentors ,I know you have thought long and hard about closing this thread, i all so know you have powers to discriminate from what is right from wrong, i hope you will allow this debate to continue as i think human resonsability is important.

Sir, pull yourself together. We shall expose these false gods you call "The Mentors" and let reason and sound judgment reign once more.

Multiquote as many people's posts as you want, but quote the last one.

Look jimmysnyder, I did it just like you always told me.

 

[Proton Soup]

I'm not sure about the 60's as I hadn't materialized yet, but if I remember correctly entrepreneurs have the right to choose their clients. Of course any reasonable one doesn't say no to money.

i guess you've never heard of a little thing called the Interstate Commerce Clause.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

However, I'm not an english native and could only identify this "can-o-worms" as

The Can-O-Worms is an odourless, user friendly system that allows anyone to participate in recycling...

Really?

To open a can of worms means to discuss an unpleasant topic.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I'm not sure about the 60's as I hadn't materialized yet, but if I remember correctly entrepreneurs have the right to choose their clients. Of course any reasonable one doesn't say no to money.

In the US, almost all businesses are considered places of http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/12181.text.html. If your business falls under this category, then you do not have the right to refuse service to anyone on the basis of race, creed, national origin, or a few others I can't recall.

 

[DaveC426913]

I am not really sure what you mean by this term 'do gooder'. I mean, I know what I mean by it, but the way you use it makes little sense. To me, a 'do gooder' is more referring to discrete acts by an individual.

"You should stop using zat word. I do not sink it means what you sink it means."
-Inigo Montoya

I think it's a divided by a common language thing.
In UK English - a do gooder is a self appointed authority who wants to restrict what you can do for your own good, the "won't someone think of the children" effect.

So a common headline is: council 'do gooders' ban children from throwing snowballs (in case they get hurt). It also applies to groups calling for censorship of TV / films etc.
It's normally used as a derogatrary term.

Ah. Oh.

 

[OmCheeto]

This might explain why there is so much confusion in this tread.

The Kansas definition:

Back where I come from there are men who do nothing all day but good deeds. They are called phila... er, phila... er, yes, er, Good Deed Doers.

I believe that Wollie's "Do gooders" would be referred to as "mothers" on this side of the Atlantic:

Ralphie: I want an official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifle!
Ralphie's mother: No, you'll shoot your eye out.

And I really need to clean my glasses:

...and I can tell you that sailors didn't bother to blush after 16 weeks of boot camp.

I had to read this sentence twice, as the first time I read "flush".