Medical Asperger's Syndrome: Myth or Reality?

[zoobyshoe]

What Is Asperger Syndrome?
By Barbara L. Kirby


"Asperger Syndrome or (Asperger's Disorder) is a neurobiological disorder named for a Viennese physician, Hans Asperger, who in 1944 published a paper which described a pattern of behaviors in several young boys who had normal intelligence and language development, but who also exhibited autistic-like behaviors and marked deficiencies in social and communication skills..."

"...Individuals with AS can exhibit a variety of characteristics and the disorder can range from mild to severe. Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest. They have a great deal of difficulty reading nonverbal cues (body language) and very often the individual with AS has difficulty determining proper body space. Often overly sensitive to sounds, tastes, smells, and sights, the person with AS may prefer soft clothing, certain foods, and be bothered by sounds or lights no one else seems to hear or see..."

"Because of their high degree of functionality and their naiveté, those with AS are often viewed as eccentric or odd and can easily become victims of teasing and bullying. While language development seems, on the surface, normal, individuals with AS often have deficits in pragmatics and prosody. Vocabularies may be extraordinarily rich and some children sound like "little professors." However, persons with AS can be extremely literal and have difficulty using language in a social context..."


-by Lois Freisleben-Cook:
"...A few people with Asperger's syndrome are very successful and until recently were not diagnosed with anything but were seen as brilliant, eccentric, absent minded, socially inept, and a little awkward physically."

"Although the criteria state no significant delay in the development of language milestones, what you might see is a "different" way of using language. A child may have a wonderful vocabulary and even demonstrate hyperlexia but not truly understand the nuances of language and have difficulty with language pragmatics. Social pragmatics also tend be weak, leading the person to appear to be walking to the beat of a "different drum". Motor dyspraxia can be reflected in a tendency to be clumsy."

"In social interaction, many people with Asperger's syndrome demonstrate gaze avoidance and may actually turn away at the same moment as greeting another..."

Asperger Syndrome
Address:http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/

 

[mathwonk]

this will not garner any comments apparently because we all think we have it and would rather not discuss it. i floated this topic in my mathd epartm,ent as a joke and did not get a single comment of any kind. i guess there are some things, like being socially clueless, that math/science types are sensitive about.

 

[pattylou]

Well, it may not garner any comments but I guarantee you will enjoy reading "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night" if you haven't yet.

Besides, social skills are over-rated. And I seriously doubt that nerdism (of which I am a proud card carrying member; I can quote HHGttG with the best of 'em) is really physiologically the same as Asperger's.

 

[brewnog]

Well, it may not garner any comments but I guarantee you will enjoy reading "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night" if you haven't yet.

Yes, definintely! If not medically accurate (anyone?), it's a fantastic way of telling a story, and such a fascinating condition too.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Besides, social skills are over-rated.

No kidding, I find the most people too boring to make it worth the effort. This of course is one reason why I landed here at PF.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well, it may not garner any comments but I guarantee you will enjoy reading "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night" if you haven't yet.

What is this? I haven't heard of it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Zooby, I was curious why you posted this in GD instead of Biology or Social Sciences?

 

[zoobyshoe]

No kidding, I find the most people too boring to make it worth the effort. This of course is one reason why I landed here at PF.

Indeed, the first principle of social skills seems to be the unwritten rule: Never, under any circumstances, say anything interesting!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Indeed, the first principle of social skills seems to be the unwritten rule: Never, under any circumstances, say anything interesting!

You can imagine how well my interests go over in a crowd - physics, engineering, and serious discussion of fringe topics. Just shoot me now.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Zooby, I was curious why you posted this in GD instead of Biology or Social Sciences?

Yes, I debated about that, and am aware it would probably be more appropriate in Social Sciences. In the end I posted it here just because I feel more people check out GD than the smaller, dedicated forums. It's fine if you want to move it, though.

 

[fourier jr]

Besides, social skills are over-rated. And I seriously doubt that nerdism (of which I am a proud card carrying member; I can quote HHGttG with the best of 'em) is really physiologically the same as Asperger's.

disagree here. last school year i did the courses on verbal & nonverbal communication & have been teaching myself about relationships also since then. I've learned a ton of stuff that i didn't know before. it has helped me at work also.

also one doesn't have to have all the symptoms of asperger's to have it, so nerdism in one form or another could be asperger's.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes, I debated about that, and am aware it would probably be more appropriate in Social Sciences. In the end I posted it here just because I feel more people check out GD than the smaller, dedicated forums. It's fine if you want to move it, though.

You were wanting to get personal feedback and not so much technical responses? I was just curious.

 

[zoobyshoe]

disagree here. last school year i did the courses on verbal & nonverbal communication & have been teaching myself about relationships also since then. I've learned a ton of stuff that i didn't know before. it has helped me at work also.

also one doesn't have to have all the symptoms of asperger's to have it, so nerdism in one form or another could be asperger's.

Asperger's warrants an FYI in any case because the book I read that prompted this thread pointed out that, since it's only a very recent addition to the literature, there are huge numbers of mental health professionals who are pretty much ignorant about it, having received their training prior to the dissemination of info about AS. Likewise, it closely mimics other diagnoses:

"Say What?
When considering the dozens of descriptions various specialists have been know to apply to persons with AS, we could not help but recall the parable about the blind men and the elephant, in which each man identified the elephant as a different animal depending on which part of it he felt. Often specialists see and identify only the facet of AS that pertains to their area of expertise. Having been identified as having any of these does not exclude your child from having AS.

One Doctor's Asperger Syndrome
is another doctor's PDD-NOS
is yet another doctor's high-functioning autism is a speech pathologists's semantic-pragmatic disorder is a education consultant's nonverbal learning disability is a psychologist's personality disorder"

-The Oasis Guide to Asperger Syndrome
2001
p.85

The champion of Asperger's is probably Dr. Tony Atwood, who has gone farther than anyone else in trying to disseminate info about it, and more importantly to disseminate coping strategies for people with AS.

 

[zoobyshoe]

You were wanting to get personal feedback and not so much technical responses? I was just curious.

I had no idea what the response might be, but was thinking it might possibly lead to "Did Einstein have Asperger's?" since people have thrown that question out in the past without seeming to have researched Asperger's.

 

[pattylou]

What is this? I haven't heard of it.

It's a good read, follows a boy in Britain who has Asperger's, and he witnesses his neighbor's dog murdered. Since he had an easier relationship with the dog than he had with most people, he was really affected by the dog's death. So he sets out to find out what happened.

Told through his perspective, lots of mathematical puzzles sprinkled throughout (like when he got lost and used a logical methodolgy to find the train station instead of asking a stranger), etc.

Most (well, some anyway) technically minded people relate to the main character at a basic level.

Review:

http://mostlyfiction.com/contemp/haddon.htm

Chapter excerpt:

http://mostlyfiction.com/excerpts/curiousincident.htm

-patty

 

[zoobyshoe]

Thanks, Pattylou. I think I'm going to read it.

 

[Happeh]

"In social interaction, many people with Asperger's syndrome demonstrate gaze avoidance and may actually turn away at the same moment as greeting another..."

Asperger Syndrome
Address:http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/

All of that stuff sounds to me like the people have low energy. They are not healthy. Some proper exercise and exposure to the right people would fill them up. Looking away from someone is common when a low energy person meets a high energy person. It is self protection from possession.

Does it say anything about sexual preferences or activities of people with Asperger's?

I noticed the comment "No one likes to talk about Asperger's because we all wonder if we have it". If you had to make a choice, be as smart as you are now, or be social and normal and all that other stuff that Asperger's people are not, what would you choose?

Did you know that labeling something is a form of dominance? A person who can successfully label you, owns you. Back in the day, people were eccentric or odd. No big deal. Aspergers is like a power word. Some wizards over in the Psychology department waved their magic wand and Aspergers bubbled out of the pot. Now instead of feeling inferior to hard scientists, the Psychologists can point at you and say the magic word "Aspergers" and POOF! You are nothing. A little kid embarrassed and ashamed of himself. Hiding so no one sees that he has no social skills and thinks differently from others. That will teach you to say psychologists are not real scientists.

 

[Moonbear]

All of that stuff sounds to me like the people have low energy. They are not healthy. Some proper exercise and exposure to the right people would fill them up. Looking away from someone is common when a low energy person meets a high energy person. It is self protection from possession.

Does it say anything about sexual preferences or activities of people with Asperger's?

I noticed the comment "No one likes to talk about Asperger's because we all wonder if we have it". If you had to make a choice, be as smart as you are now, or be social and normal and all that other stuff that Asperger's people are not, what would you choose?

Did you know that labeling something is a form of dominance? A person who can successfully label you, owns you. Back in the day, people were eccentric or odd. No big deal. Aspergers is like a power word. Some wizards over in the Psychology department waved their magic wand and Aspergers bubbled out of the pot. Now instead of feeling inferior to hard scientists, the Psychologists can point at you and say the magic word "Aspergers" and POOF! You are nothing. A little kid embarrassed and ashamed of himself. Hiding so no one sees that he has no social skills and thinks differently from others. That will teach you to say psychologists are not real scientists.

And now we return this thread to real science. Happeh, you really should read more about Asperger's if you have gotten the impression that diet will cure it.

Zooby, I myself am not clear on what the distinction is between high-functioning autism and Asperger syndrome. I'm under the impression the latter is a subset of the former, but am not clear what the diagnostic criteria would be to determine it's Asperger syndrome specifically.

Recently I met someone who one might wonder if he has Asperger's (or some other high functioning autism type disorder). I don't know if he really did or not, but this is more than just your typical geek or nerd (we were at a party full of scientists, so plenty of geeky/nerdy types present, and he still stood out as even more extreme). When they talk about lack of social skills, we're not talking about someone who just prefers to sit by themself in the corner because they are bored with the conversation or are somewhat introverted, but someone who really doesn't detect the nuances of conversation. He quickly became flustered and didn't quite "get" the jokes being told because he took things totally literally. It's also not just not making eye contact (I know a lot of people uncomfortable looking someone in the eyes, but that's not Asperger's), but that they almost appear to wish they were a turtle that could crawl back into a shell when someone talks to them; they look down, turn away, you may even notice their shoulders hunch, almost like they are cringing away from the conversation rather than just standing with their gaze directed to the floor as a person who is just shy might do.

But, keep in mind with any psychological/psychiatric disorder that having a single symptom does not mean you have the disorder. You always need to consider the full complement of symptoms someone exhibits.

Edit: Ah, here's a site that answers a lot of questions. http://www.aspergers.com/

The diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV) are listed there too.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Zooby, I myself am not clear on what the distinction is between high-functioning autism and Asperger syndrome.

"Rainman" is high functioning autism.

It's also not just not making eye contact (I know a lot of people uncomfortable looking someone in the eyes, but that's not Asperger's),

According to this book, people with Aspergers find eye contact to be an overwhelmingly intense experience. One guy described it as being like staring into bright car headlights. They don't like to look directly into peoples eyes because they can no longer listen properly to what they are saying if they do. In other words, the sheer visual experience of two eyes looking at them is too intense for them to do that and talk at the same time. This is quite distinct from someone who avoids looking people in the eye from fear of their potentially critical judgements, as from "shyness" or "low self esteem". Asperger's people aren't the least bit afraid of being looked at and mentally judged, it is the intensity of the visual experience of other people's gaze that brings them to a standstill.

I believe the same is true of autistic people, who experience some normal everyday things at a level of intensity that is painfull.

but that they almost appear to wish they were a turtle that could crawl back into a shell when someone talks to them; they look down, turn away, you may even notice their shoulders hunch, almost like they are cringing away from the conversation rather than just standing with their gaze directed to the floor as a person who is just shy might do.

This latter doesn't sound like Asperger's. Asperger's people don't present as "shy", despite the lack of eye contact. Aspergers people are much more likely to approach total strangers and bring their favorite subject up out of the blue, then talk about it non-stop.

What they would avoid at a social gathering is "group" discussions, because the more people there are, the less and less able they would be to talk non-stop about their favorite subject uninterrupted. Asperger's people are not good conversationalists but are enthusiastic monologists.

As for not getting jokes; people with Asperger's are baffled by certain kinds of jokes, but they aren't at all humorless. They love specific kinds of humor, and are particularly attracted to word-play, and exaggerated comic characters like you'd find in a Mike Meyer's Austin Powers movie.

But, keep in mind with any psychological/psychiatric disorder that having a single symptom does not mean you have the disorder. You always need to consider the full complement of symptoms someone exhibits.

Absolutely. A single feature means nothing at all. Even having all the features means nothing if they aren't the right quality.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Wired ran an interesting article about Aspergers a few years back: The Geek Syndrome.
I remember this article because I took the test that came with it and scored higher than I was expecting. It looks like the online test is broken but you can still score it manually.

 

[ron damon]

normal people are sickening

 

[Zantra]

aspergers- the ugly brother to autism. It's only in the last few years, to my knowledge, that they've really made progress in identifying aspergers. Before that many as patients were being misdiagnosed as high functioning autistics- as Moonbear pointed out. Oh and Moonbear, since you were asking about diagnostic criteria, here's a pathology:

http://www.aspergers.com/aspbiol.htm

 

[Moonbear]

Wired ran an interesting article about Aspergers a few years back: The Geek Syndrome.
I remember this article because I took the test that came with it and scored higher than I was expecting. It looks like the online test is broken but you can still score it manually.

I came across that article fairly recently, so decided to dig into the literature at the time to see if it held up to scrutiny. Apparently, it hasn't. IIRC, more recent studies have come to the conclusion that it's just that physicians are more aware of the syndrome, so the apparent increases in Aspergers in that area are just better and earlier diagnosis.

Zooby, when I said I thought someone with Aspergers looked like someone wishing they could crawl into a shell, I didn't intend to imply shyness. Actually, I think that fits reasonably well with your clarification of eye contact being too intense to the point of being overwhelming. Your analogy of feeling like they are caught in very bright lights makes sense with what I'm picturing in my mind (even if I'm not explaining that picture well). If you've ever been caught in someone's hi-beam headlights while out walking, you know how you feel like absolutely cringing away from it because it's almost painful. The thing is, they'll keep talking, but really go out of their way to make eye contact.

But, I don't know if the person I met would really meet diagnostic criteria for Aspergers, he might have just been socially inept, but his behaviors did seem very different from anything I've ever seen in people who are shy or introverted, or bad conversationalists, etc.

 

[fileen]

my adopted brother has A.S. he is young and has a really hard time making friends. he is also incredibly smart and has an amazing memory. he doesn't understand jokes. he reminds me of a computer. brilliant but frustrating. our family is use to him, we have no troubles, but he doesn't know how to act in social situations. he doesn't understand personal space. he is caring and loving and seeks relationshis, he just doesn't know how. he has an issue with sound. music seems to almost put him in a trance, and when he isn't thinking about it he makes repetitive sounds without realizing he does it. I don't know much about A.S. but it is not something to be cured with diet. I am slightly offended by the suggestion. he struggles with it. he will all his life. my mother chose to homeschool him because children would beat up on him at school and teachers were cold towards him suggesting he deserved it. yelling at him, trying to force him into knowing, but he cant. my brother has a hard time being accepted for who he is. again I don't know much about it, but I do know that he can not learn it. he has no capacity to do so, and he tries desperately. my brother makes eye contact with me, though I can't say how he is with strangers. he doesn't sit still for long, or do anything for long if it is simple to him and he can do it easily, but his determination is unmatched. he has poor coordination, but when he sets out to do something he will try until he succeeds or physically cannot try any more. he will do great things in life. it is the people who mock his disability who hold him back. if you would like to learn more let me know and I can access my mothers information...she has books and books on the subject

 

[Moonbear]

my mother chose to homeschool him because children would beat up on him at school and teachers were cold towards him suggesting he deserved it. yelling at him, trying to force him into knowing, but he cant.

That is something I've heard about kids with Aspergers. They so badly want to make friends, and misunderstand so many social cues, that they become victims of bullying very easily. When the other kids tell them to do something to make a fool of them, they do it because they think it will make the other kids like them. That part of it makes me very sad, just knowing that a child is desperate to make friends and just doesn't know how and can't, my heart breaks for them. Thank you for sharing about your brother so we can all understand other children with the syndrome a little better.

 

[hypnagogue]

"Rainman" is high functioning autism.

"Rainman" (Kim Peek) is an autistic savant. However, one needn't be a savant in order to be a high functioning autistic.

I haven't done extensive reading on this topic, but I have some insight since my brother is a high functioning autistic. If you were to meet my brother, you'd be able to tell he isn't a cognitively normal individual pretty quickly. He's shy around strangers, but if you can engage him in conversation you find pretty quickly that he has a limited vocabulary and difficulty stringing together sentences. He does OK with smaller and more basic sentences, but runs into trouble for longer ones or ones that convey more complex or subtle ideas. You can tell he's thinking about things and has an active, inquisitive mind, but he has a hard time expressing himself and understanding more complicated concepts, and as a result his view of the world is pretty naive and child-like (he's 17 now). His linguistic skills are far behind someone like Kim Peek, and he doesn't have any special savant skills either. I imagine he's much more heavily afflicted by autism than people who are only diagnosed with Asperger's. Besides the linguistic skills, he also has a strong propensity to get completely absorbed into various activities like watching movies, listening to music, or playing video games, and if he is interrupted during this time he can get rather upset or anxious.

He's been diagnosed as high functioning, though, because of where he stands relative to most other autistic children. I volunteered at an afterschool program that he attended with other autistic children from a span of about 8-10 years ago, so I've been able to see the difference firsthand. While his language skills are limited, he was still far ahead of most of the autistic children at the program. I might be biased, but it seemed to me that even compared to children at a comparable level, he came off as more 'normal' in terms of personality and speech vocalizations during conversation. Probably the biggest difference, though, is behavioral. If you were to observe my brother from a distance without talking to him, you wouldn't be able to tell that he wasn't a cognitively normal person. He doesn't engage in stereotyped or repetetive behaviors like hand-flapping or otherwise abnormal movements and physical behaviors, and in general is on a pretty even keel emotionally. These factors contributed to his being able to work very well in the applied behavioral analysis sessions they administered to the autistic children, which is where I imagine he earned the label of 'high functioning.' He might be able to hold down a low end job someday, which is indicative of his high functioning character. However, I don't think it's by any means a given that he will be able to, which marks his case as more severe than Asperger's.

I find the thing about eye contact interesting, because in my brother's case he not only has no problems with it, but often seeks to establish it (at least for me and my parents). He doesn't seem to exhibit any gross sensory sensitivities in general, although he may have when he was younger. (He used to be terrified of the vacuum, and we think it was because of the noises it made, but nowadays he volunteers to vacuum himself.)

 

[zoobyshoe]

"Rainman" (Kim Peek) is an autistic savant. However, one needn't be a savant in order to be a high functioning autistic.

I've never heard of Kim Peek. I meant Rainman/Dustin Hoffman, a popular movie I figured Moonbear would know about, which accurately portrayed high functioning autism, (and also, incidently, savant-ism.)

Yes, "high functioning" has nothing in particular to do with those who are also savants.

I am not, to my own private satisfaction, convinced that Asperger's is really a form of autism. The resemblences strike me as superficial. To the extent they've found anything wrong with the brains of Asperger's people it seems all to be left hemishere lesions. With autistic people the main problem they find is an undersized cerebellum. All this kind of research has been spotty and inconclusive, though.

Has your brother ever had an MRI or CT scan, Hyp?

 

[hypnagogue]

I've never heard of Kim Peek. I meant Rainman/Dustin Hoffman, a popular movie I figured Moonbear would know about, which accurately portrayed high functioning autism, (and also, incidently, savant-ism.)

Hoffman's character in Rainman is inspired by Kim Peek. (see the link)

Has your brother ever had an MRI or CT scan, Hyp?

I'm pretty sure he hasn't.

 

[zoobyshoe]

But, I don't know if the person I met would really meet diagnostic criteria for Aspergers, he might have just been socially inept, but his behaviors did seem very different from anything I've ever seen in people who are shy or introverted, or bad conversationalists, etc.

People with Asperger's are socially inept in a very specific way for a very specific reason, which is the lack of "theory of mind". The gaze thing is a separate problem, and isn't the cause or main feature of their social ineptitude.

The lack of "theory of mind" leads to them approaching total strangers with a kind of astonishing naivte. One book I read illustrated this with an incident where an Asperger's person walked up to an obese girl and said: "So, I see you're fat. What's it like to be fat?"

Bashe and Kirby list 10 consequences of this "mindblindness":

1. Insensitivity to other peope's feelings
2. Inability to take into account what other people know
3. Inability to negotiate friendships by reading and responding to intentons
4. Inability to read the listener's level of interest in one's speech
5. In ability to detect a speaker's intended meaning
6. Inability to anticipate what others might think of one's actions
7. Inability to understand misunderstandings
8. Inability to decieve or understand deceptions
9. Inability to understand the reasons behind people's actions
10. Inability to understand "unwritten rules" or conventions

-The Oasis Guide to Asperger Syndrome
p. 310

At Princeton, unsophisticated and socially unschooled Richard Feynman was invited to "high tea" many times. The first time he went he was asked if he wanted lemon or milk. "Both" he said, with no clue. "Surely, you must be jokng, Mr. Feynman!" the socialite woman who was pouring replied. Later, she says the same thing in connection with something else he's said. Suddenly, Feynman has an insight! She's telling him he has made a social blunder. That, he realizes, is what "Surely you must be jokng!" means: it's a hint, a clue: "You have made a social faux pas."

That is the kind of insight Asperger's people never have.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Hoffman's character in Rainman is inspired by Kim Peek. (see the link)

deseretnews.com | NASA scientists taking a peek at Utahn's brain
Address:http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595103605,00.html

They are saying this guy has no separation between the hemispheres of his brain! Amazing!

 

[Happeh]

And now we return this thread to real science. Happeh, you really should read more about Asperger's if you have gotten the impression that diet will cure it.

What you mean is that now, since you are all knowing, you will disregard anything that does not fit into your world view.

I would like to offer some advice to people here. It is common for educated people to become blinded by arrogance. They feel if someone does not speak as they do, the person cannot possibly have anything of importance to say. They feel that if the person says something that they have not heard of, the person is a waste of time.

These arrogant individuals commonly express their arrogance by rudely pretending people do not exist and completely ignoring them

Educated people are of the mind that things must have an extremely complex explanation that only someone qualified such as themselves can understand. If the explanation is simple, they refuse to accept it. Anyone can understand simple. How will their ego deal with that situation? Instead of being an arrogant elitists, they are just like regular people understanding something simple.

If you read Zooby shoes list of 10 things commonly associated with Aspergers, you see a very obvious thing. If you are able to see the obvious. If you are arrogant and closeminded, and you believe that Aspergers is some problem that people have because an expert told you so, you will never bother to trust your own god given brain and look for the answer yourself.

When I look at Zooby's list, I see the description of an honest person. And somehow, some bozo has convinced people that honesty is a disease and the honest person is sick.

1. Insensitivity to other peope's feelings

Translation - Will not lie to make other people feel good

2. Inability to take into account what other people know

Translation - refusal to accept the ignorant statements of others so they feel good.

3. Inability to negotiate friendships by reading and responding to intentons

Translation - Does not tell lies that other people want them too in order to form relationships.

4. Inability to read the listener's level of interest in one's speech

Translations - refuses to let an ignorant person get away without hearing what they need to. Like me forcing reality on you. Motivated by caring about the health of other human beings.

5. In ability to detect a speaker's intended meaning

Translation - Refuses to be hurt when ugly people are abusive to them. Your hidden meaning in "And now we return to science" is "get out of here bozo". Instead of rewarding the ugly person with the negative reaction they want, the person smiles and pretends he doesn't know what the ugly person's intentions are.

6. Inability to anticipate what others might think of one's actions

Translation - Does what is right, no matter who cries about it

7. Inability to understand misunderstandings

Translation - Refusal to be dragged into pointless recriminations.

8. Inability to decieve or understand deceptions

Translation - Refusal to be an agent of evil. Refusing to lie or be deceitful. Refusing to understand deception so as to remain uncontaminated by evil.

9. Inability to understand the reasons behind people's actions

Translation - Uninterested in listening to people's excuses

10. Inability to understand "unwritten rules" or conventions

Translation - Who says they don't understand?

If I could sum up where you are wrong simply and directly?

You think Aspergers people are losers or sick or problem people who do not function in society. What if Aspergers people are so superior that contact with normal people is painful for them? What if they feign all of those 10 "problems" so they avoid normal people and therefore avoid the pain induced by unaware normal people?

You really oughta do something about that arrogance. Don't be misled by appearances. I could tell you a thing or two you never heard anywhere else on this planet.

 

[Zantra]

What you mean is that now, since you are all knowing, you will disregard anything that does not fit into your world view.

I would like to offer some advice to people here. It is common for educated people to become blinded by arrogance. They feel if someone does not speak as they do, the person cannot possibly have anything of importance to say. They feel that if the person says something that they have not heard of, the person is a waste of time.

These arrogant individuals commonly express their arrogance by rudely pretending people do not exist and completely ignoring them

Educated people are of the mind that things must have an extremely complex explanation that only someone qualified such as themselves can understand. If the explanation is simple, they refuse to accept it. Anyone can understand simple. How will their ego deal with that situation? Instead of being an arrogant elitists, they are just like regular people understanding something simple.

If you read Zooby shoes list of 10 things commonly associated with Aspergers, you see a very obvious thing. If you are able to see the obvious. If you are arrogant and closeminded, and you believe that Aspergers is some problem that people have because an expert told you so, you will never bother to trust your own god given brain and look for the answer yourself.

When I look at Zooby's list, I see the description of an honest person. And somehow, some bozo has convinced people that honesty is a disease and the honest person is sick.

1. Insensitivity to other peope's feelings

Translation - Will not lie to make other people feel good

2. Inability to take into account what other people know

Translation - refusal to accept the ignorant statements of others so they feel good.

3. Inability to negotiate friendships by reading and responding to intentons

Translation - Does not tell lies that other people want them too in order to form relationships.

4. Inability to read the listener's level of interest in one's speech

Translations - refuses to let an ignorant person get away without hearing what they need to. Like me forcing reality on you. Motivated by caring about the health of other human beings.

5. In ability to detect a speaker's intended meaning

Translation - Refuses to be hurt when ugly people are abusive to them. Your hidden meaning in "And now we return to science" is "get out of here bozo". Instead of rewarding the ugly person with the negative reaction they want, the person smiles and pretends he doesn't know what the ugly person's intentions are.

6. Inability to anticipate what others might think of one's actions

Translation - Does what is right, no matter who cries about it

7. Inability to understand misunderstandings

Translation - Refusal to be dragged into pointless recriminations.

8. Inability to decieve or understand deceptions

Translation - Refusal to be an agent of evil. Refusing to lie or be deceitful. Refusing to understand deception so as to remain uncontaminated by evil.

9. Inability to understand the reasons behind people's actions

Translation - Uninterested in listening to people's excuses

10. Inability to understand "unwritten rules" or conventions

Translation - Who says they don't understand?

If I could sum up where you are wrong simply and directly?

You think Aspergers people are losers or sick or problem people who do not function in society. What if Aspergers people are so superior that contact with normal people is painful for them? What if they feign all of those 10 "problems" so they avoid normal people and therefore avoid the pain induced by unaware normal people?

You really oughta do something about that arrogance. Don't be misled by appearances. I could tell you a thing or two you never heard anywhere else on this planet.

Ok the difference between an "honest" person and someone with AS is akin to the difference between psychopath's and sociopaths- psychopaths don't know the normal social rules-sociopaths know the rules but choose not to follow them. Likewise, someone with AS doesn't know the social norms, whereas an excessively honest person knows the rules and just chooses not to follow them. Similiar behaviors doesn't necessarily mean that the behaviors are normal- it depends on the context.

 

[kaos]

Aspergers is not as simple as being too honest or watever. Its simply that the person is unable to see others perspective in social situations.We do not make life difficult for them ,rather life is difficult for these people because of problems with social interactions. I think its safe to say u have never met ppl with aspergers, so stop postulating that nonsense happeh.

 

[Delta]

Aspergers is not as simple as being too honest or watever. Its simply that the person is unable to see others perspective in social situations.We do not make life difficult for them ,rather life is difficult for these people because of problems with social interactions. I think its safe to say u have never met ppl with aspergers, so stop postulating that nonsense happeh.

I agree.

I'm no expert, but after having autistic kids being pointed out to me, whether its aspergers or at the other end of the ASD scale, you begin to understand there is something different going on. One of the main things being that they seem to be in a world of their own.

Just by looking at their actions and their eyes it is not arrogance or having a higher opinion.

I'm still trying to find stuff on a close 3yr old friend of mine, who we are still not sure what they have. All I know is that a friend used to babysit her every weekday and when I turned up on the friday the little girl used to throw her arms in the air and scream with excitement everytime. The babysitting stopped for several months, and now when I see her its like she doesn't know who I am anymore more.

I was told it was because she's forgotten how to react. There are a few other things, such as an inability to express pain, a lack of sense of danger, her speech isn't as developed as it could be, easily distracted. Someone found something on the internet that discribed her but wasn't ASD. Although an initial diagnosis was aspergers, the research continues.

 

[fileen]

I agree with kaos

 

[RedScout]

You can't fully dismiss Happeh's point of view, Autistic/people with Aspergers Syndrome are usually some of the most honest people you can meet. As for the cause for the responses in social situations I think it will be a while before we know for sure. We don't have a concrete classification of Autism and Aspergers because we simply don't know enough about it yet.

 

[zoobyshoe]

You can't fully dismiss Happeh's point of view,

What you mean is that now, since you are all knowing, you will disregard anything that does not fit into your world view.
I would like to offer some advice to people here. It is common for educated people to become blinded by arrogance. They feel if someone does not speak as they do, the person cannot possibly have anything of importance to say. They feel that if the person says something that they have not heard of, the person is a waste of time.
These arrogant individuals commonly express their arrogance by rudely pretending people do not exist and completely ignoring them
Educated people are of the mind that things must have an extremely complex explanation that only someone qualified such as themselves can understand. If the explanation is simple, they refuse to accept it. Anyone can understand simple. How will their ego deal with that situation?

You really want to side with Happeh on anything? His argument isn't pro-honesty, it's anti-education. He resents educated people and believes education fosters arrogance.

Autistic/people with Aspergers Syndrome are usually some of the most honest people you can meet.

Honesty is an excellent quality. The problem is that in Asperger's it isn't moderated by a sense of people's feelings. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Asperger's people get themselves into trouble all the time by doing things like going up to strangers and saying things like: "I see you're fat. What's it like to be fat?" The diagnosis usually follows a period of being picked on by their classmates at school for posing questions like this. Without meaning to, or understanding why, they socially ostracize themselves. Happeh's notion that they could tell social white lies if they wanted to but choose to be rigorously honest is a complete misunderstanding of what's going on.

 

[RedScout]

I was agreeing with the side of Happeh's argument that people who have Asperger's syndrome, tend not to lie, and usually say what they think. Also, that people who believe they have education sometimes put themselves above the intelligence of other people. Personally I don't believe they are telling white lies either, because they don't have the ability to intrepret other people's feelings from they're point of view.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I was agreeing with the side of Happeh's argument that people who have Asperger's syndrome, tend not to lie, and usually say what they think.

Happeh doesn't believe there is such a thing as Asperger's Syndrome. He thinks it's a way of knocking honest people:

If you read Zooby shoes list of 10 things commonly associated with Aspergers, you see a very obvious thing. If you are able to see the obvious. If you are arrogant and closeminded, and you believe that Aspergers is some problem that people have because an expert told you so, you will never bother to trust your own god given brain and look for the answer yourself.

When I look at Zooby's list, I see the description of an honest person. And somehow, some bozo has convinced people that honesty is a disease and the honest person is sick.

Also, that people who believe they have education sometimes put themselves above the intelligence of other people.

Obviously true, sometimes, but it has nothing to do with Asperger's. Asperger's people are generally academically above average, and especially attracted to math and science. Asperger's people are always in with the "educated" people. They tend to do well in theater and music, too.

Personally I don't believe they are telling white lies either, because they don't have the ability to intrepret other people's feelings from they're point of view.

I don't think you understood the part where I talked about white lies. Here it is again:

"Happeh's notion that they could tell social white lies if they wanted to but choose to be rigorously honest, is a complete misunderstanding of what's going on."

I am agreeing they don't tend to tell any kind of lies, but for a different reason than the one Happeh thinks. You and I agree about that reason. Happeh doesn't.

 

[debeng]

it seems to me that Asperger's syndrome is not a disorder or a disease. if we go on thinking about it, perhaps everyone might end up thinking that they atleast have some aspect of it. those who have it have it for a special reson (it's a gift for them sometimes) and those who don't have their's too. as far as i can track Newton could have it, Einstein did a lot of interations with many physicist and mathematician around.
it is like just sleeping habit. i heard the lesser the medical students sleep, the more they are likely to have success. they do not have to start a new theory, just learn wat has been written and there are many things to learn for them from science to ethics and to be learned perfectly.though their brain reqiure a lot of energy it can last considerably longer. for physicist, wondering about new things is more important that their brain require more energy that won't last long enough. they need more sleep to regain energy for their brain. basically time means more to a medical student, while full brain functioning to physicist i suppose

 

[zoobyshoe]

it seems to me that Asperger's syndrome is not a disorder or a disease.

It really is though. It's a specific set of important problems that all show up together, from which we can deduce they're all caused by the same root neurological problem whatever that may be. Consider an analogy to a physical , medical problem: if a person has a certain kind of thing wrong with their heart it causes a certain set of specific symptoms. If a cardiologist sees that specific set of symptoms all together in one patient, he or she will immediately suspect that particular kind of heart problem, let's say it's a faulty valve, even though he or she hasn't done an ultrasound yet.
Your brain is a physical organ just like any other in your body and things can go wrong with it. You depend on your brain to sort out information from your senses, and it also is responsible for generating the type and quality and strength of the emotions you feel. If you physically change the workings of the brain you can radically change the perceptions and behaviour of the person. Everyone knows this, and everyone has seen it first hand: you see someone drink a six pack of beer, and they're a changed person. A change in their brain chemistry causes unmistakable changes in the person.
So, if a neurologist finds a group of people who all have the same particular problems and specific personality features, as Hans Asperger did, it is a logical conclusion that he's seeing much more than a strong personality trait, but a physical difference in their brains.

if we go on thinking about it, perhaps everyone might end up thinking that they atleast have some aspect of it.

This is a very common reaction to finding out about just about any 'syndrome". Certain parts of it always seem to describe you. Part of the problem is that the language used to describe it can be interpreted too broadly sometimes. If you read that Asperger's people don't pick up on social cues, and don't have a good idea of what's going on in other people's minds, it's very, very easy to think of times when you missed important social cues, and when you were baffled about what was going on in other people's minds.
Chances are, though, that your experiences with that are very different than what happens in Asperger's, and not chronic. Almost none of these descriptions make any real sense until you actually meet someone with the syndrome or problem, and see first hand the exact way it shows itself. That's the way it was with me, anyway. It was a pretty nebulous concept to me until the first time I met a kid diagnosed with it. When you do, you suddenly realize why the description REALLY fits and isn't just describing mild personality traits, and you also see why it causes problems for them with other people.

those who have it have it for a special reson (it's a gift for them sometimes) and those who don't have their's too.

I think it's important not to mistake any kind of mental or neurological problem as a "good thing". The whole reason doctors try to figure these things out and see what can be done to allieviate them is because they create huge problems for the people who have them. If you say there was something wrong with Newton that happened to give him the "gift" of being a good scientist as a byproduct, then I would say I would rather there had been nothing wrong with him and we did without the physics so he could lead a happy life. (In truth, it's doubtful we'd ever have to do without the physics. It might have taken 20 other lesser physicists to piece together what he pieced together by himself, but it would have gotten done.) It is not required that people be tormented and unhappy to do good work. Feynman was a very happy, well adjusted person, and he soared above his peers in Physics.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Zooby, it's not just what we may believe ourselves, but what society seems to believe. There's a meme going around that almost every brilliant quantitative thinker has Asperger's to some degree. And the evidence adduced is that such people are often unsocialized - even is some cases radically so. I am sure you aren't endorsing such pop diagnoses, but we have to be on our guard against this kind of thing.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Zooby, it's not just what we may believe ourselves, but what society seems to believe. There's a meme going around that almost every brilliant quantitative thinker has Asperger's to some degree. And the evidence adduced is that such people are often unsocialized - even is some cases radically so.

One thing I hope that comes out of threads like this is that people get a better handle on what the syndrome really consists of so they can see it doesn't necessarily fit most of these famous people it's being ascribed to.
Having one or two of the traits is pretty meaningless, and it's especially important not to call having one or two of the traits "some degree" of Aspergers. You need to have a substantial block of the traits. Otherwise the resemblence is purely coincidental. Could be there's some kind of a problem, but it's not Asperger's.

I'm realizing, though, that verbal descriptions of symptoms don't always make the point. It would nice to collect a couple hours of interviews of people with Asperger's, put them on a DVD and let people see what the verbal descriptions are referring to.

 

[quotidian1337]

Skepticism Regarding the Alleged Diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome

I really am skeptical about 'Asperger Syndrome'. I really don't think it exists at all. I say this as someone who has studied psychology for years, and who is intimately familiar with it. I may not be a doctor, but one doesn't have to be a medical expert to realize that there are a lot of psychological conditions out there that are over-diagnosed or misdiagnosed. Asperger's, ADHD, and believe it or not, Bipolar Disorder are some of the most commonly misdiagnosed syndromes out there. It is puzzling in this century how there has suddenly emerged an epidemic of Asperger Syndrome and Bipolar. Allow me to debunk a lot of the hype surrounding this sudden surge of diagnoses, and the reason why they are suddenly so numerous.

The first reason is one that very few psychiatrists and professionals would claim to admit to: the fact that a lot of these syndromes are misdiagnosed for the primary reason of increasing the clientele of psychiatrists, as well as the revenues made by increased sales of antidepressant drugs and stimulants for deficits in "concentration". When you look underneath the layers, you can see how obvious it is that this whole thing is rigged. The pharmaceutical companies are reaping in the profits of selling drugs meant to "cure" ADHD and the various cycles of depression experienced by Bipolar patients and those with Asperger Syndrome who happen to have concurrent depression along with their diagnosis.

I have made several observations as someone who has researched this intensely in my tenure as a psychology student at university: The first observation concerns those with bipolar. I have several friends of mine who claim to have the disorder, when in all actuality they do not. Although they may have some of the shifts in mood swings, there is no evidence of them having the entire diagnosis. For one thing, they were not mentally instituted, nor were they classified as 'incurably insane'. Perhaps this means that instead of having Bipolar (which is a mental disorder), they have some high-functioning variant of it. I have heard of something called "Bipolar Affective Disorder", in which patients with it have aspects of the condition (in terms of mood fluctuations, specifically), but are not so strongly effected that they cannot function. In fact, many of them learn to combat the condition through pro-active means: they transfer their frustration and anxieties into their creativity. It is true that many people with bipolar are extremely creative, and the friends whom I knew who were thought by psychiatrists to have had or, or who were misdiagnosed with the condition, developed the ability to channel their frustrations into creative efforts. In fact, many of them excelled brilliantly in what they did, because they had natural talents, and they knew how to convert these into positive endeavors where their brilliance was put to use. The main reason why I am so adamant against the methodologies in use by the psychiatric practice today is that I, myself, had the direct experience of being misdiagnosed with Bipolar II when I was 17, and going through a rough time. I realized that my difficulties at that time were largely situational, and that I was just more intense than most people are used to. Although I have family members with bipolar, they, too, have used techniques to overcome it. And overtime, I had learned to overcome the adversity of my fluctuating chemical imbalances by channeling my frustrations into positive energy. Several years after I had been diagnosed with the condition, I had another assessment done. This one confirmed that I didn't have it, and that much of my strife was due to circumstantial situations and not to the fact that I had a pervasive chemical imbalance. So I am relieved that I did not have the full-blown thing. However, those who do in fact have the diagnosis are not sentenced for life: they can use these same techniques to control their behaviours and to change the way in which the disorder manifests itself. It is only as disabling as you ALLOW it to become, and you are in control of your condition, no matter what condition you allegedly have.

The second and most prominent disagreement I have is with the diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome. I have met so many people with this supposed diagnosis who have no pronounced symptoms of autism whatsoever. Although I have noticed that they have 'traits' that conform with the symptoms of autism, a lot of what I have observed of their mannerisms are merely habitual behaviour patterns. Ergo, a lot of it is psychosomatic. One case in particular stands out in my mind: of a friend of mine who was perfectly well adjusted, and although relatively idiosyncratic in the way in which he chose to phrase things (he often used very lofty, huge words and had an abstract way of expressing his ideas, and a very eloquent way of speaking as well as articulate and "staccato" prosody), he showed no signs of lack of social understanding or lack of pragmatic comprehension when engaged in conversation. He could relate and emphasize intimately with people, and could easily read them and see into their intentions (for the most part). However, after the psychiatrists had diagnosed him with Asperger's, for the fact that he had an unusual knowledge of astronomy (it's all he ever talked about) and because he had rather poor organization (although functioned very well in spite of this), he began to exhibit more and more traits of autisic spectrum disorders. He admitted to me that he thought this was psychosomatic, and I concurred with him that it in all likelihood was. Three years later, when he turned 21, he underwent a reassessment. They found that he in fact did not have AS, but just perceived things on a different level. This really has more to do with his unique mind than it does with some kind of pervasive developmental syndrome. We are all different, and we all have unique conceptions of things. So this does not classify a syndrome. This is the main reason why I think that psychiatry should reform its methodological practices; and that there should be things like MRIs done to test for autism or high functioning autism, as it is much more definitive. Further, I really do believe that people have to have some core autistic traits in order to be dxed with Asperger's. AS should be eliminated from the realm of syndromes, because I think that there has to be some commonalities with autism in order for an autistic-spectrum diagnosis to be confirmed. So Asperger's does not exist, in that it is merely a psychosomatic, behavioral condition. It is strictly behavioral. And any cognitive abnormalities associated with AS are in fact psychosomatic ones. I noticed this because my friend with it started making odd motor movements psychosomatically after he was diagnosed. Asperger's should be eliminated, as a lot of these people who allegedly have it have no symptoms of autism. Thus, only high-functioning autism should be considered, and AS should be eliminated from the Autistic Spectrum Disorders.

 

[355113]

NECRO! OK, I'm reviving this thread.

Anyways, I am diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. I'd be glad to answer any questions people have about it if they are interested.

I am not, to my own private satisfaction, convinced that Asperger's is really a form of autism. The resemblences strike me as superficial.

Asperger's is clinically indistinguishable from HFA (high-functioning autism). I recently read a study in which some researchers attempted to discern whether or not DSM-IV Asperger's could be consistently separated from classic (Kanner's) autism, and they concluded that it could not be. Right now, the classification is a bit messy, and the way in which ASDs are diagnosed and labeled is expected to change with the release of the DSM-V.

 

[zoobyshoe]

NECRO! OK, I'm reviving this thread.

Anyways, I am diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. I'd be glad to answer any questions people have about it if they are interested.Asperger's is clinically indistinguishable from HFA (high-functioning autism). I recently read a study in which some researchers attempted to discern whether or not DSM-IV Asperger's could be consistently separated from classic (Kanner's) autism, and they concluded that it could not be. Right now, the classification is a bit messy, and the way in which ASDs are diagnosed and labeled is expected to change with the release of the DSM-V.

Yeah, this thread IS old.

In my opinion the confusion is the result of misdiagnosis: people who should be diagnosed as high-functioning autistic have been labeled as Asperger's people by poor diagnosticians, and the difference became muddied. To a large extent shrinks learn their "feel" for a diagnosis by experience with patients who have that diagnosis. Therefore, if they learn what Asperger's is from people who are actually high-functioning autistics, then they will repeat the error. That's my opinion.

An authentic high-functioning autistic person would never have said "NECRO!" They don't much get humor. Asperger's people on the other hand, love humor, especially word play and puns.

Do you have an additional diagnosis? Asperger's commonly, but not always, co-occurs with something else.

 

[355113]

In my opinion the confusion is the result of misdiagnosis: people who should be diagnosed as high-functioning autistic have been labeled as Asperger's people by poor diagnosticians, and the difference became muddied. To a large extent shrinks learn their "feel" for a diagnosis by experience with patients who have that diagnosis. Therefore, if they learn what Asperger's is from people who are actually high-functioning autistics, then they will repeat the error. That's my opinion.

An authentic high-functioning autistic person would never have said "NECRO!" They don't much get humor. Asperger's people on the other hand, love humor, especially word play and puns.

Do you have an additional diagnosis? Asperger's commonly, but not always, co-occurs with something else.

There have been issues caused by misdiagnosis, yes, but remember, HFA is not a formal diagnosis- according to the DSM-IV there's Autistic Disorder and there's Asperger's Disorder, the main difference being that Asperger's precludes mental retardation (which is not a requirement for Autistic Disorder, only a possibility) and Asperger's also precludes the possibility of a speech delay, whereas a speech delay would be present in "classic" autism. These two together mean that a high-functioning individual with a dx of autistic disorder would, in adulthood (after developing speech) be completely indistinguishable from someone with Asperger's. I personally did have a noticeable speech delay, but it is debatable whether it was significant enough to change the dx. In any case, most doctors seem to take Asperger's as "autism with high IQ" which is not quite accurate, but the formal definitions aren't very clear either so they're left with whatever they can come up with on their own. As I mentioned, a team of researchers tried to go strictly off the DSM-IV and weren't able, based on its criteria, to consistently discriminate between the two. I think they actually concluded that the vast majority of Asperger's diagnoses were incorrect, and those people should instead be labeled simply autistic. Anyways, I normally just refer to myself as autistic (harder to mispronounce) and don't worry so much about the exact right characterization, since the whole autistic spectrum will almost certainly be regarded significantly differently with the release of the DSM-V in a couple years.

Don't believe the stereotypes. An "authentic" HFA person may or may not have a good sense of humor, and an AS person may or may not as well. I've been told in the past that I have an odd sense of humor (or that I have no sense of humor when I happen not to find any given joke to be funny) but response to humor is not a defining characteristic of either HFA or AS. I do, as per your stereotype, enjoy word play and puns, but not everyone with AS does. I know a couple people with classic autism who have a great sense of humor.

As far as other diagnoses, I believe I was previously diagnosed with a sensory processing disorder, though that's a bit redundant as I believe almost all autistics have that to some extent. When I was younger, my teachers recommended me for an ADD/HD dx but my doctor withheld a diagnosis on the basis that I did not, in his opinion, need to be medicated for those traits. ADD is far over-dx'ed, and while I match with several of the characteristics of it, I think I am probably at sub-clinical levels for most of them.

 

[zoobyshoe]

There have been issues caused by misdiagnosis, yes, but remember, HFA is not a formal diagnosis- according to the DSM-IV there's Autistic Disorder and there's Asperger's Disorder, the main difference being that Asperger's precludes mental retardation (which is not a requirement for Autistic Disorder, only a possibility) and Asperger's also precludes the possibility of a speech delay, whereas a speech delay would be present in "classic" autism. These two together mean that a high-functioning individual with a dx of autistic disorder would, in adulthood (after developing speech) be completely indistinguishable from someone with Asperger's. I personally did have a noticeable speech delay, but it is debatable whether it was significant enough to change the dx. In any case, most doctors seem to take Asperger's as "autism with high IQ" which is not quite accurate, but the formal definitions aren't very clear either so they're left with whatever they can come up with on their own. As I mentioned, a team of researchers tried to go strictly off the DSM-IV and weren't able, based on its criteria, to consistently discriminate between the two. I think they actually concluded that the vast majority of Asperger's diagnoses were incorrect, and those people should instead be labeled simply autistic. Anyways, I normally just refer to myself as autistic (harder to mispronounce) and don't worry so much about the exact right characterization, since the whole autistic spectrum will almost certainly be regarded significantly differently with the release of the DSM-V in a couple years.

One extremely significant difference which is mentioned in all books about Asperger's but ignored by the DSM is that Asperger's people frequently demonstrate above average academic skills, at least in one area, but possibly more, whereas Autistic people never do, not even savants. (The prodigious memorization and calculation skills of savants do not translate to academic success because they don't understand contexts.) I can tell from your post that your reading comprehension is well above average and your diction is excellent. Your verbal SAT score was almost certainly superior. I'm guessing from the fact you're here you very much enjoy physics and math and probably had above average grades in those subjects despite whatever issues lead to your diagnosis. A high functioning autistic person would not be able to stand out academically. Temple Grandin could never get straight A's.

Don't believe the stereotypes. An "authentic" HFA person may or may not have a good sense of humor

Um...how the hell would YOU know what a good sense of humor is?

... and an AS person may or may not as well. I've been told in the past that I have an odd sense of humor (or that I have no sense of humor when I happen not to find any given joke to be funny) but response to humor is not a defining characteristic of either HFA or AS. I do, as per your stereotype, enjoy word play and puns, but not everyone with AS does. I know a couple people with classic autism who have a great sense of humor.

It's true that autistic people find some things funny and can laugh and be delighted, but what fits their criteria for funny is markedly idiosyncratic, to say the least. Asperger's humor, on the other hand, is obvious to the general population. (However, general population humor is not always obvious to Asperger's People.)

Response to humor is, indeed, not a defining characteristic of either, clinically, but it is brought up so often in books and discussions about the two that it's clear it is significant. The ability to understand why and how something is funny says volumes about the way a person's mind works and also about how much they understand about those around them. In my experience it is not a stereotype any more than any other common feature of either could be dismissed as a stereotype.

Anyway, I think I see two distinct conditions erroneously lumped together as different points on the same spectrum. That's my perception.

The main trouble with the DSM is that diagnosis is arrived at by observation of behavior and is dependent on the skill of the doctor. There are no lab tests or typical EEG's or MRI features associated with any diagnosis in the DSM, to back up a diagnosis. It is revised over and over because the conditions are defined by apparent symptom constellations in the absence of any reference to, or knowledge of, the physiological problems behind the symptoms. Some day when brain scans become sensitive enough, and our understanding of how the parts of the brain interrelate progresses far enough, we will see Asperger's ( and everything else in the DSM, for that matter) defined specifically, with reference to the exact "circuits" and processes that aren't functioning properly, in pretty much the same way we can now follow the trail of endocrine malfunctioning, and its consequences on other systems, that leads to diabetes. As it is now, you go to a weird enough psychiatrist, he might decide your diagnosis should actually be "Delusional Disorder, Erotomanic Type", and that weird opinion is as good as any in the absence of physiological data.

As far as other diagnoses, I believe I was previously diagnosed with a sensory processing disorder, though that's a bit redundant as I believe almost all autistics have that to some extent. When I was younger, my teachers recommended me for an ADD/HD dx but my doctor withheld a diagnosis on the basis that I did not, in his opinion, need to be medicated for those traits. ADD is far over-dx'ed, and while I match with several of the characteristics of it, I think I am probably at sub-clinical levels for most of them.

The book I read which specifically pointed out the frequent co-occurance of a second diagnosis said it frequently co-occured with OCD and seizures. There was another one, too, but I don't remember it (read that book back when I started this thread.)

Regardless, I just looked at the Wikipedia article and it said something interesting I hadn't heard before, which is that 20% of Asperger's kids seem to "outgrow" it. While googling I ran across a quote from an interview with actor/commedian Dan Akroyed, who admitted he had been diagnosed with Asperger's as a kid. Unlike a lot of other conditions, Asperger's may, in fact, allow for nearly unlimited insight into its own liabilities leading to the creation of totally successful compensatory adaptations.

 

[tgt]

Zooby, I myself am not clear on what the distinction is between high-functioning autism and Asperger syndrome. I'm under the impression the latter is a subset of the former, but am not clear what the diagnostic criteria would be to determine it's Asperger syndrome specifically.

No. One difference is that people with Asperger's lack some motor skills but people with high functioning autism do not. Also people with Asperger's may be very adequate in communicating and language skills whereas people with high functioning autism usually do not.

One common feature to both is lack of social skills.

 

[355113]

One extremely significant difference which is mentioned in all books about Asperger's but ignored by the DSM is that Asperger's people frequently demonstrate above average academic skills, at least in one area, but possibly more, whereas Autistic people never do, not even savants. (The prodigious memorization and calculation skills of savants do not translate to academic success because they don't understand contexts.)

This is simply not true. I know at least a couple Kanner's autistics who have been academically successful. It may be that Kanner's autists less commonly succeed academically, but saying that none do is wrong. Remember, all absolute statements are false. And that's why I never make absolute statements.

Um...how the hell would YOU know what a good sense of humor is?

That's actually a pretty good question. I suppose I don't, or at least I don't know what would conventionally be considered a good sense of humor as I find different things funny than others seem to.

It's true that autistic people find some things funny and can laugh and be delighted, but what fits their criteria for funny is markedly idiosyncratic, to say the least. Asperger's humor, on the other hand, is obvious to the general population. (However, general population humor is not always obvious to Asperger's People.)

Hm... I disagree, not all Asperger's humor seems to make sense to the general population. What other explanation could there possibly be for people not laughing at my jokes?

The ability to understand why and how something is funny says volumes about the way a person's mind works and also about how much they understand about those around them.

But basing such perceptions on whether someone finds a joke funny isn't necessarily accurate... there are plenty of jokes that I intellectually understand but just don't consider to be amusing. I know why they are supposed to be funny, I just don't think they've succeeded. Most people on seeing such a reaction will tend to assume that I just didn't get the joke.

Anyway, I think I see two distinct conditions erroneously lumped together as different points on the same spectrum. That's my perception.

And I think they are fundamentally the same thing, or at least on the same spectrum, that are artificially separated by arbitrary markers such as verbal intelligence when in fact they should not be regarded as separate. Indeed, some new evidence seems to indicate that autism itself is not a discrete condition, but merely a collection of certain traits at a certain intensity. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7841808.stm"

The main trouble with the DSM is that diagnosis is arrived at by observation of behavior and is dependent on the skill of the doctor. There are no lab tests or typical EEG's or MRI features associated with any diagnosis in the DSM, to back up a diagnosis. It is revised over and over because the conditions are defined by apparent symptom constellations in the absence of any reference to, or knowledge of, the physiological problems behind the symptoms.

Well, yes, and that is the nature of psychology. The disease model really does not apply too terribly well to the autistic spectrum. Physiological problems would be difficult or impossible to identify, and then the practice of labeling all autistic traits as "problem" has been vocally opposed by a number of prominent researchers, as well as most people who are themselves autistic.

Some day when brain scans become sensitive enough, and our understanding of how the parts of the brain interrelate progresses far enough, we will see Asperger's ( and everything else in the DSM, for that matter) defined specifically, with reference to the exact "circuits" and processes that aren't functioning properly, in pretty much the same way we can now follow the trail of endocrine malfunctioning, and its consequences on other systems, that leads to diabetes.

It will be interesting to see neurology advance that far someday, but for now that field is still in its infancy and we have to go with the best we currently know.

As it is now, you go to a weird enough psychiatrist, he might decide your diagnosis should actually be "Delusional Disorder, Erotomanic Type", and that weird opinion is as good as any in the absence of physiological data.

Not quite as good as any, since you have to take into account whether the diagnosis makes sense and is consistent. I mean, no psychologist or psychiatrist could realistically diagnose me as schizophrenic, bipolar, or depressed. A crappy psychiatrist might be capable of misdiagnosing me with ADD or even possibly OCD, but it should be readily apparent that neither of those diagnoses would account for all my idiosyncratic behavior or markedly unusual profile of IQ subscores, whereas some variant of autism does.

The book I read which specifically pointed out the frequent co-occurance of a second diagnosis said it frequently co-occured with OCD and seizures. There was another one, too, but I don't remember it (read that book back when I started this thread.)

OCD and epilepsy are more common among AS people, though epilepsy still is not what I would call "common," it is simply less rare than among the general population. I read once that approximately 70% of AS adolescents have comorbid ADD/HD, but that number seems a bit inflated to me.

Regardless, I just looked at the Wikipedia article and it said something interesting I hadn't heard before, which is that 20% of Asperger's kids seem to "outgrow" it. While googling I ran across a quote from an interview with actor/commedian Dan Akroyed, who admitted he had been diagnosed with Asperger's as a kid. Unlike a lot of other conditions, Asperger's may, in fact, allow for nearly unlimited insight into its own liabilities leading to the creation of totally successful compensatory adaptations.

I've heard rumors of people "outgrowing" AS but that does not actually occur; rather, people develop effective coping mechanisms. I'm not quite sure what to make of Ackroyd- I've heard claims that he was kidding when he said he was diagnosed with AS, though that wouldn't make much sense. Anyways, yes, AS does tend to allow for more self-awareness and ability to analyze one's own strengths and weaknesses, and this is helpful in figuring out how to compensate for the weaknesses.