Attraction of magnets to ferromagnetic materials with distance?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the distance and the attractive force between magnets and ferromagnetic materials, specifically focusing on the complexities involved in understanding this interaction. Participants seek to clarify the differences in force dynamics between two magnets and a magnet with a piece of ferromagnetic material.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express difficulty finding information specifically about the attractive force between a magnet and ferromagnetic materials, noting that most resources focus on interactions between two magnets.
  • One participant references a mathematical expression for the force between magnetic dipole moments, indicating that the relationship is complex and involves specific parameters such as magnetic moments and displacement vectors.
  • Another participant suggests that a dipole-based representation of magnets could be useful, mentioning the concept of "bound current" related to magnetization.
  • It is noted that calculating the attraction between a magnet and ferromagnetic material can be complicated, and one approach involves analyzing the energy stored in the magnetic field and how it changes with the introduction of ferromagnetic materials.
  • A comparison is made to a problem analyzed by Feynman regarding electric fields and dielectrics, highlighting the complexity of the mathematics involved unless a simple system is considered.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the specific relationship between distance and attractive force, and multiple competing views and approaches remain regarding how to analyze the interaction between magnets and ferromagnetic materials.

Contextual Notes

The discussion acknowledges that the mathematical treatment of the problem can become quite messy, particularly in non-uniform magnetic fields, and that assumptions about the system's configuration significantly affect the analysis.

carmatic
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all i can find on the internet are the attractive and repulsive forces between 2 magnets... where can i find the relationship between distance and attractive force , between a magnet and i.e. a piece of iron?
 
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Dr_Morbius said:
Magnets, how do they work?

Like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet

as i have said, it only contains information on the force between 2 magnets, not between a magnet and a piece of ferromagnetic material
 
Any luck with this?
I'm looking for this answer as well.
 
The force between magnets as a mathematical expression is complicated.

What I have found is the force between magnetic diople moments.

The only source that I remember specifically is wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_moment#Forces_between_two_magnetic_dipoles


which gave the force acting on [itex]\vec{m}_{2}[/itex] as being

[itex]\frac{3\mu_{0}}{4\pi \left\|\vec{r} \right\| ^{5}} \left[ (\vec{m}_{1} \cdot \vec{r})\vec{m}_{2} + (\vec{m}_{2} \cdot \vec{r})\vec{m}_{1} + (\vec{m}_{1} \cdot \vec{m}_{2})\vec{r} - \frac {5 ( \vec{m}_{1} \cdot \vec{r} )( \vec{m}_{2} \cdot \vec{r} ) \vec{r} }{ \left\| r \right\| ^{2}} \right][/itex]

with [itex]\vec{m}_{1}[/itex] and [itex]\vec{m}_{2}[/itex] being the two magnetic dipole moments, and [itex]\vec{r}[/itex] is the displacement vector from the location of m1 to m2
 
Last edited:
You may be able to obtain a dipole based representation of each magnet. The permanent magnet would have "bound current", which is which is obtainable from the magnetization.
 
It is complicated to determine the attraction between a magnet and a piece of iron (or other ferromagnetic material). What you can do, if you know exactly how the magnetic field is configured, is to calculate the energy stored in that field and then calculate how much that energy would change when you place a ferromagnetic material around it. This is totally analogous to the problem Feynman analyzed on the Feynman Lectures, volume 2, chapter 10, section 10-5, with the difference Feynman did the math for electric fields and dielectrics. But the reasoning is precisely the same.

Anyways, unless you have a very simple system (such as a uniform magnetic field and a ferromagnetic plate), the math you will need to solve your problem can be quite messy.
 

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